Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 8

[LoveMyRaps]

Not sure what you're getting at.

I'm a huge fan of Garland and have wanted the Raps to trade him for a while, especially after the Cavs got Mitchell because the two didn't look like they could co-exist at all.

With that being said, my point still stands. If we replace IQ w/ Garland, I don't think we suddenly start winning a lot more games and become a playoff team.

Not to mention, IQ has been injured all season and hasn't had any time to build chemistry w/ Scottie & co.

Garland is an actual lead guard, IQ is not. That’s the big difference and it’s a massive one. So you can make whatever excuses you want but Garland is objectively a talent upgrade over IQ or RJ and makes the FO job much easier in building a roster during a rebuild.

I think we're arguing two different things at this point.

You're making the case that Garland is the better piece to have on this rebuilding roster, which I agree with.

However, when Yogurt said "I don't see Garland being considerably better than IQ to elevate a franchise." - I thought he was referring to the individual impact both guys would have on our current record.

Garland has had a breakout season this year, something Quickley hasn't had the chance to replicate.

If we look at their advanced stats from past seasons, Quickley stands out:
(DG - 25% usage, IQ - 23% usage)

WS/48 - Quickley .123 > Garland 0.076
VORP - Quickley 5.7 > Garland 4.3
BPM - Quickley 1.1 > Garland 0.3


But of course, Garland has taken a massive leap this season and has moved ahead of Quickley. We can only hope that Quickley can do the same and have a breakout of his own. But for that, we're gonna need to be a bit patient and give him a legit chance to showcase his potential.

A lot of Cavs fans were ready to ship off Garland last season because he had the type of season Quick is having this year. I bet they're glad they didn't right about now...

IQ

[HumbleRen]

Not sure what you're getting at.

I'm a huge fan of Garland and have wanted the Raps to trade him for a while, especially after the Cavs got Mitchell because the two didn't look like they could co-exist at all.

With that being said, my point still stands. If we replace IQ w/ Garland, I don't think we suddenly start winning a lot more games and become a playoff team.

Not to mention, IQ has been injured all season and hasn't had any time to build chemistry w/ Scottie & co.

Garland is an actual lead guard, IQ is not. That’s the big difference and it’s a massive one. So you can make whatever excuses you want but Garland is objectively a talent upgrade over IQ or RJ and makes the FO job much easier in building a roster during a rebuild.

I think we're arguing two different things at this point.

You're making the case that Garland is the better piece to have on this rebuilding roster, which I agree with.

However, when Yogurt said "I don't see Garland being considerably better than IQ to elevate a franchise." - I thought he was referring to the individual impact both guys would have on our current record.

Garland has had a breakout season this year, something Quickley hasn't had the chance to replicate.

If we look at their advanced stats from past seasons, Quickley stands out:
(DG - 25% usage, IQ - 23% usage)

WS/48 - Quickley .123 > Garland 0.076
VORP - Quickley 5.7 > Garland 4.3
BPM - Quickley 1.1 > Garland 0.3


But of course, Garland has taken a massive leap this season and has moved ahead of Quickley. We can only hope that Quickley can do the same and have a breakout of his own. But for that, we're gonna need to be a bit patient and give him a legit chance to showcase his potential.

A lot of Cavs fans were ready to ship off Garland last season because he had the type of season Quick is having this year. I bet they're glad they didn't right about now...

IQ

It’s not really a huge leap, dude had a broken jaw, it’s more so returning to form lol. Garland’s weakest season with a broken jaw is basically on par with IQ’s best season.

I’m not saying Garland is going to add 20 wins or something but a rebuild process is just infinitely easier with an actual all star caliber lead guard vs a 25 year old secondary ball handler guard. That’s how basketball works.

[LoveMyRaps]

Garland is an actual lead guard, IQ is not. That’s the big difference and it’s a massive one. So you can make whatever excuses you want but Garland is objectively a talent upgrade over IQ or RJ and makes the FO job much easier in building a roster during a rebuild.

I think we're arguing two different things at this point.

You're making the case that Garland is the better piece to have on this rebuilding roster, which I agree with.

However, when Yogurt said "I don't see Garland being considerably better than IQ to elevate a franchise." - I thought he was referring to the individual impact both guys would have on our current record.

Garland has had a breakout season this year, something Quickley hasn't had the chance to replicate.

If we look at their advanced stats from past seasons, Quickley stands out:
(DG - 25% usage, IQ - 23% usage)

WS/48 - Quickley .123 > Garland 0.076
VORP - Quickley 5.7 > Garland 4.3
BPM - Quickley 1.1 > Garland 0.3


But of course, Garland has taken a massive leap this season and has moved ahead of Quickley. We can only hope that Quickley can do the same and have a breakout of his own. But for that, we're gonna need to be a bit patient and give him a legit chance to showcase his potential.

A lot of Cavs fans were ready to ship off Garland last season because he had the type of season Quick is having this year. I bet they're glad they didn't right about now...

IQ

It’s not really a huge leap, dude had a broken jaw, it’s more so returning to form lol. Garland’s weakest season with a broken jaw is basically on par with IQ’s best season.

I’m not saying Garland is going to add 20 wins or something but a rebuild process is just infinitely easier with an actual all star caliber lead guard vs a 25 year old secondary ball handler guard. That’s how basketball works.

Even if you compare this current season to his all-star year, you can clearly see he's made a leap.

His advanced stats have SIGNIFICANTLY improved - WS/48: .199 vs .125, BPM 3.9 vs. 2.6, TS 63% vs. 58%, TOV% 12.5 vs. 16.2

The TOV% can be attributed to him handling the ball less but nonetheless, he's made a leap.

[Vampirate]

Garland is an actual lead guard, IQ is not. That’s the big difference and it’s a massive one. So you can make whatever excuses you want but Garland is objectively a talent upgrade over IQ or RJ and makes the FO job much easier in building a roster during a rebuild.

I think we're arguing two different things at this point.

You're making the case that Garland is the better piece to have on this rebuilding roster, which I agree with.

However, when Yogurt said "I don't see Garland being considerably better than IQ to elevate a franchise." - I thought he was referring to the individual impact both guys would have on our current record.

Garland has had a breakout season this year, something Quickley hasn't had the chance to replicate.

If we look at their advanced stats from past seasons, Quickley stands out:
(DG - 25% usage, IQ - 23% usage)

WS/48 - Quickley .123 > Garland 0.076
VORP - Quickley 5.7 > Garland 4.3
BPM - Quickley 1.1 > Garland 0.3


But of course, Garland has taken a massive leap this season and has moved ahead of Quickley. We can only hope that Quickley can do the same and have a breakout of his own. But for that, we're gonna need to be a bit patient and give him a legit chance to showcase his potential.

A lot of Cavs fans were ready to ship off Garland last season because he had the type of season Quick is having this year. I bet they're glad they didn't right about now...

IQ

It’s not really a huge leap, dude had a broken jaw, it’s more so returning to form lol. Garland’s weakest season with a broken jaw is basically on par with IQ’s best season.

I’m not saying Garland is going to add 20 wins or something but a rebuild process is just infinitely easier with an actual all star caliber lead guard vs a 25 year old secondary ball handler guard. That’s how basketball works.

Garland's previous highest TS prior to this year is 58.7, his TS this year is 63, that's the definition of a big leap, credit to the guy.

To show you how crazy it is his previous best 2P% was 51.2%, career 49.4%, this year he's is at 55%

Can you predict him being 65.7% from 10-16 feet?

SGA in the same range is 56.6%, Barnes thus far is 56.7% (All not including today's game)

Just absurd to shoot over 60% anywhere not at the basket, let alone 65%.

[YogurtProducer]

What am I reading man. I always had a low regard for your basketball takes but this is a new low even for yourself.

You don’t think having one of Amen, Garland, Franz, Sengun etc wouldn’t put our rebuild in a significantly better place?

Good lord.

If you replace IQ w/ Garland, do you really think it would move the needle for us? Do you think this team would drastically be any different? Let's not even start w/ Suggs, or any of the Houston players... None of those guys are significant upgrades over IQ.

Yes, one game proves everything

[YogurtProducer]

I think we're arguing two different things at this point.

You're making the case that Garland is the better piece to have on this rebuilding roster, which I agree with.

However, when Yogurt said "I don't see Garland being considerably better than IQ to elevate a franchise." - I thought he was referring to the individual impact both guys would have on our current record.

Garland has had a breakout season this year, something Quickley hasn't had the chance to replicate.

If we look at their advanced stats from past seasons, Quickley stands out:
(DG - 25% usage, IQ - 23% usage)

WS/48 - Quickley .123 > Garland 0.076
VORP - Quickley 5.7 > Garland 4.3
BPM - Quickley 1.1 > Garland 0.3


But of course, Garland has taken a massive leap this season and has moved ahead of Quickley. We can only hope that Quickley can do the same and have a breakout of his own. But for that, we're gonna need to be a bit patient and give him a legit chance to showcase his potential.

A lot of Cavs fans were ready to ship off Garland last season because he had the type of season Quick is having this year. I bet they're glad they didn't right about now...

IQ

It’s not really a huge leap, dude had a broken jaw, it’s more so returning to form lol. Garland’s weakest season with a broken jaw is basically on par with IQ’s best season.

I’m not saying Garland is going to add 20 wins or something but a rebuild process is just infinitely easier with an actual all star caliber lead guard vs a 25 year old secondary ball handler guard. That’s how basketball works.

Garland's previous highest TS prior to this year is 58.7, his TS this year is 63, that's the definition of a big leap, credit to the guy.

To show you how crazy it is his previous best 2P% was 51.2%, career 49.4%, this year he's is at 55%

Can you predict him being 65.7% from 10-16 feet?

SGA in the same range is 56.6%, Barnes thus far is 56.7% (All not including today's game)

Just absurd to shoot over 60% anywhere not at the basket, let alone 65%.

Pretty wild - also strongly suggests regression is coming. I’d bet no one’s shot 65% from that range on any significant volume over a single season, right?

[HumbleRen]

If you replace IQ w/ Garland, do you really think it would move the needle for us? Do you think this team would drastically be any different? Let's not even start w/ Suggs, or any of the Houston players... None of those guys are significant upgrades over IQ.

Yes, one game proves everything

Sure if you ignore the fact that one guy has never been better than the other player at any point in their career.

[Vampirate]

It’s not really a huge leap, dude had a broken jaw, it’s more so returning to form lol. Garland’s weakest season with a broken jaw is basically on par with IQ’s best season.

I’m not saying Garland is going to add 20 wins or something but a rebuild process is just infinitely easier with an actual all star caliber lead guard vs a 25 year old secondary ball handler guard. That’s how basketball works.

Garland's previous highest TS prior to this year is 58.7, his TS this year is 63, that's the definition of a big leap, credit to the guy.

To show you how crazy it is his previous best 2P% was 51.2%, career 49.4%, this year he's is at 55%

Can you predict him being 65.7% from 10-16 feet?

SGA in the same range is 56.6%, Barnes thus far is 56.7% (All not including today's game)

Just absurd to shoot over 60% anywhere not at the basket, let alone 65%.

Pretty wild - also strongly suggests regression is coming. I’d bet no one’s shot 65% from that range on any significant volume over a single season, right?

Over at least 60+ games mid 50% seem possible but rare, even for the best of them.

KD was shooting 60% from 10-16ft for 39 games for Brooklyn, no idea if that would have held up for 25+ more games.

Shooting 50+% anywhere beyond 10 feet is exceedingly hard.

[Scase]

I would rather have both Green or Smith at 9.5mil and younger, than RJ at over 2x as much, 2-3x as much NBA experience, and inline for a much larger contract in a couple years.

What about Jalen Green+Gabari for 55+ Million vs a (possible) expiring/tradable RJ at 29 million.

(the real option here is none of them, they are all bench players imo)

As for Reed, the kid plays 11mpg, who knows what he's gonna end up as.

Same could be said for Jakobe, Chomche and Mogbo (I view Jakobe the highest of the 4)

RJ/IQ are 5th and 6th year players, if they didn't look better than those 3, we would be losing our minds.

Just reminding you Jalen is about to be paid 30 mill per year starting next year, most Rocket fans don't want him, they are just stuck with him. They want to trade Jalen like we want to trade RJ.

I'm not saying replacing them with Rockets players would be the solution for this team, but having younger, better contract controlled players for a team that has won 8 games is a better situation to be than going into the next year paying our core 90mil for like 30 wins.

Agreed, we need to trade quite a bit of redundancy...on the other hand, thank god we have only 8 wins and not 12 or 18 like the Trailblazers or Bulls. You know I don't want to keep RJ past his current contract, I just think you are looking at things as a grass is always greener approach sometimes.

Saying the rockets are "just" benefitting from their players getting better is kinda nuts, like yeah, that's the point. What are we benefitting from? Our players stagnating or getting worse? The Rockets are doing better, because they have young players that are taking the next steps, not 5th and 6th year players providing the same impact they did on their previous team. They have players growing and getting better, we don't that's the crux of the argument. Not that because they added FVV/Brooks and they got better lol.

Jalen Green and Jabari are 'not' getting better, they have stagnated lol. I straight up don't want them.

Amen on the other hand, and i've said before, except for Barnes i'd trade literally anyone else to get him.

Would you trade their young roster for ours? Ignore the FVV/Brooks stuff. Just straight up, would you rather have BBQ+GD and JKW or Green, Sengun, Thompson, Parker, and Whitmore? Cause I don't think there would be a single GM in the league that would take our young guys over the Rockets'. Hell, Sengun/Thompson alone are a better core than BBQ+GD/JKW.

Just to get Amen alone on our team, yes. Sengun=Barnes to me. Most other players on the rockets I don't view that highly.

Here's another way to put it, in terms of prospects (imo of course)

Barnes>Sengun>Amen (these 3 are really interchangeable)>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jakobe>Jabari>Gradey>Tari>Mogbo>Green>Chomche>Cam>Reed>Shead

What you mention about the Siakam timeline is 100% correct. I'm not bothered that we were in the state where we didn't have the assets cause we just won the chip, but rather that they tried to shoehorn a rookie into that and call it a day. We didn't have the assets to do what the Cavs did, we didn't have a bunch of young players like the Rockets, and that's totally fine. The issue is that we acted like we did.

No arguments here, i'll repeat, we should have fired NN and did a fire sale once we drafted Barnes.

They got to go out and pick up players like Mitchell/FVV/Brooks etc because they already had a foundation. We tried to just throw Scottie into some broken ass foundation and think we could move forward with it, and then when it was showing glaring signs of being below average, we traded a lotto pick to bump up that glaring sign to mediocre.

Again, repeat above.

ATL was making it sound like the Cavs etc did nothing but add vets and tada, they became good. No, they built up a good foundation of young players and high picks, and then they moved onto the next phase of the plan and added some vets. Something we are also seeing in Detroit. He's pretending like we did the same thing and golly gosh gee shucks, it just didn't work out for us, them the breaks.

The Cavs seriously hit on the Garland and Mobley pick, we seriously hit on the Barnes pick. My entire point in all of this in which you seem to miss, because you're glorifying Houston's picks (all of them), is that Teams like the Rockets, Magic, Cavs are where they are is because they hit on 2 game changers in the draft.

Unlike what Yogurt is preaching though is that it's completely justifiable to criticize Masai for not going after the 2nd game changer in the draft. Our Cabinet isn't bare because of the last draft, but we're lacking in blue chip prospects. As said, I think Jakobe is better than most of Houston's prospects except for Amen and Sengun. That being said, he's not a blue chip one (still high on him though).

Nah, we tried to take a massive shortcut and fell flat on our face, so now we are stuck with a core of a couple guys who have already showcased mainly what they will be for their career, and a couple younger guys that everyone wants to overhype and ignore history and reality.

The Yak trade is indefensible. That singular trade is the sole reason why we are where we are.

Our team cupboards are still shockingly bare despite going for a second season in a row of wins in the 20s.

Again, bare no, lacking in blue chips, absolutely.

They are seemingly unwilling to move Jak, so his value is irrelevant.

At the moment, i'd say this comment is fair, though I do wonder what yak's value is.

IQ has a new contract that is unearned and is likely not very valuable right now, and if he continues the same production from last year, the value of his contract only gets better because of the structure of it, not the player.

Repeating again, IQ has played 7 games, not saying he's going to be worth his contract but a glass half empty view here. (also keep in mind everyone loved the trade at that point, we'd have to pay IQ regardless or lose him in FA)

RJ has shown nothing to indicate his contract is anything of particular value, he's in his 6th year of mediocre and inefficient offensive impact, and an absolute negative on defence. He's not a starter level player on a good team, so his value probably isn't that high.

RJ needs to be on a team with a ton of defense and that needs scoring (ironically the Rockets are such a team)

JKW is way too early to determine value much like Reed, but if I tried to guess the value of a 3rd OA pick only playing 11mpg on the 4th best team in the NBA, vs a 19th pick playing 20mpg on the 3rd worst team in the league, well lets just say no one is lining up with offers for him.

True but I just view Jakobe much higher.

Scottie and Gradey are arguably the only 2 players with positive value on the team, Jak too but as I mentioned, it seems as though we have zero intentions to move him so it's moot.

I don't think Yak has that much value tbh. Ultimately we need to move off him and RJ (the 2 picks in the draft is going to create an issue with minutes).

Our future pretty much hinges of the upcoming draft, things could either look very bright next year or very bleak.

I appreciate the effort you put into breaking up the post, don't take me not doing the same as an insult, I just lack that kind of patience lol.

Reed and JKW are not comparable, one is playing extremely limited minutes on a very good team, and the other is playing backup minutes on a horrendous team. And even if all stats were even, Reed still has more value if for no other reason that being a 3rd pick. I understand you value JKW more and that's fine, but from a strict asset standpoint, Reed has absolutely more value just by the nature of his draft position, whether or not that makes sense is a different story.

You and I have seemingly always been in agreement on Rj, so no need to touch on that.

As for IQ, since we're evaluating their value at the present time, all I can do is use his performance to date vs his contract to determine value. Yeah it's been 7 games (8 now), but they have been pretty underwhelming. 15.1/2.3/6.6 on 38/33/92 splits is rather crappy. And his stats after joining us last year weren't exactly setting the world on fire either 18/5/7 on 42/39/84. At the present time on hi current new contract, he is bordering on negative value. Not saying that it is how it will remain, but rather as it is now he cant even put up good stats on one of the worst team of the last 2 seasons.

As for Houston/Cavs and hitting on picks, I'm not missing your point. I understand they are better off because they hit on multiple picks. What I am saying, is that they hit on multiple picks, because they had more picks. They didn't get a good pick and then go right into retool mode and try to build up the team. They ate dirt as they should, to get as many kicks at the can as they could, then when they had said hits, they started to build, and now they are in a MUCH better position than we are. Masai is addicted to retooling and never rebuilding properly, and it is the precise reason we are in the **** situation we are. Also, the players I mentioned taking leaps for Houston were Sengun/Amen, not Green/Jabari lol

As I've mentioned before, Masai was saved by Tampa, and he will be saved this year by a mountain of injuries. There isn't a snowballs chance in hell Masai was aiming for anything less than a 30-35 win season and chasing the play in. And if that had actually worked out, we would continue to be mired in mediocrity hoping and praying we beat the odds and draft a Giannis/Kawhi type find in the teens.

Could you imagine this team if it wasn't for tampa? The only bright spot on this horrific team would never have made it here, and that situation was gifted to him. This season is a repeat.

[Vampirate]

I would rather have both Green or Smith at 9.5mil and younger, than RJ at over 2x as much, 2-3x as much NBA experience, and inline for a much larger contract in a couple years.

What about Jalen Green+Gabari for 55+ Million vs a (possible) expiring/tradable RJ at 29 million.

(the real option here is none of them, they are all bench players imo)

As for Reed, the kid plays 11mpg, who knows what he's gonna end up as.

Same could be said for Jakobe, Chomche and Mogbo (I view Jakobe the highest of the 4)

RJ/IQ are 5th and 6th year players, if they didn't look better than those 3, we would be losing our minds.

Just reminding you Jalen is about to be paid 30 mill per year starting next year, most Rocket fans don't want him, they are just stuck with him. They want to trade Jalen like we want to trade RJ.

I'm not saying replacing them with Rockets players would be the solution for this team, but having younger, better contract controlled players for a team that has won 8 games is a better situation to be than going into the next year paying our core 90mil for like 30 wins.

Agreed, we need to trade quite a bit of redundancy...on the other hand, thank god we have only 8 wins and not 12 or 18 like the Trailblazers or Bulls. You know I don't want to keep RJ past his current contract, I just think you are looking at things as a grass is always greener approach sometimes.

Saying the rockets are "just" benefitting from their players getting better is kinda nuts, like yeah, that's the point. What are we benefitting from? Our players stagnating or getting worse? The Rockets are doing better, because they have young players that are taking the next steps, not 5th and 6th year players providing the same impact they did on their previous team. They have players growing and getting better, we don't that's the crux of the argument. Not that because they added FVV/Brooks and they got better lol.

Jalen Green and Jabari are 'not' getting better, they have stagnated lol. I straight up don't want them.

Amen on the other hand, and i've said before, except for Barnes i'd trade literally anyone else to get him.

Would you trade their young roster for ours? Ignore the FVV/Brooks stuff. Just straight up, would you rather have BBQ+GD and JKW or Green, Sengun, Thompson, Parker, and Whitmore? Cause I don't think there would be a single GM in the league that would take our young guys over the Rockets'. Hell, Sengun/Thompson alone are a better core than BBQ+GD/JKW.

Just to get Amen alone on our team, yes. Sengun=Barnes to me. Most other players on the rockets I don't view that highly.

Here's another way to put it, in terms of prospects (imo of course)

Barnes>Sengun>Amen (these 3 are really interchangeable)>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jakobe>Jabari>Gradey>Tari>Mogbo>Green>Chomche>Cam>Reed>Shead

What you mention about the Siakam timeline is 100% correct. I'm not bothered that we were in the state where we didn't have the assets cause we just won the chip, but rather that they tried to shoehorn a rookie into that and call it a day. We didn't have the assets to do what the Cavs did, we didn't have a bunch of young players like the Rockets, and that's totally fine. The issue is that we acted like we did.

No arguments here, i'll repeat, we should have fired NN and did a fire sale once we drafted Barnes.

They got to go out and pick up players like Mitchell/FVV/Brooks etc because they already had a foundation. We tried to just throw Scottie into some broken ass foundation and think we could move forward with it, and then when it was showing glaring signs of being below average, we traded a lotto pick to bump up that glaring sign to mediocre.

Again, repeat above.

ATL was making it sound like the Cavs etc did nothing but add vets and tada, they became good. No, they built up a good foundation of young players and high picks, and then they moved onto the next phase of the plan and added some vets. Something we are also seeing in Detroit. He's pretending like we did the same thing and golly gosh gee shucks, it just didn't work out for us, them the breaks.

The Cavs seriously hit on the Garland and Mobley pick, we seriously hit on the Barnes pick. My entire point in all of this in which you seem to miss, because you're glorifying Houston's picks (all of them), is that Teams like the Rockets, Magic, Cavs are where they are is because they hit on 2 game changers in the draft.

Unlike what Yogurt is preaching though is that it's completely justifiable to criticize Masai for not going after the 2nd game changer in the draft. Our Cabinet isn't bare because of the last draft, but we're lacking in blue chip prospects. As said, I think Jakobe is better than most of Houston's prospects except for Amen and Sengun. That being said, he's not a blue chip one (still high on him though).

Nah, we tried to take a massive shortcut and fell flat on our face, so now we are stuck with a core of a couple guys who have already showcased mainly what they will be for their career, and a couple younger guys that everyone wants to overhype and ignore history and reality.

The Yak trade is indefensible. That singular trade is the sole reason why we are where we are.

Our team cupboards are still shockingly bare despite going for a second season in a row of wins in the 20s.

Again, bare no, lacking in blue chips, absolutely.

They are seemingly unwilling to move Jak, so his value is irrelevant.

At the moment, i'd say this comment is fair, though I do wonder what yak's value is.

IQ has a new contract that is unearned and is likely not very valuable right now, and if he continues the same production from last year, the value of his contract only gets better because of the structure of it, not the player.

Repeating again, IQ has played 7 games, not saying he's going to be worth his contract but a glass half empty view here. (also keep in mind everyone loved the trade at that point, we'd have to pay IQ regardless or lose him in FA)

RJ has shown nothing to indicate his contract is anything of particular value, he's in his 6th year of mediocre and inefficient offensive impact, and an absolute negative on defence. He's not a starter level player on a good team, so his value probably isn't that high.

RJ needs to be on a team with a ton of defense and that needs scoring (ironically the Rockets are such a team)

JKW is way too early to determine value much like Reed, but if I tried to guess the value of a 3rd OA pick only playing 11mpg on the 4th best team in the NBA, vs a 19th pick playing 20mpg on the 3rd worst team in the league, well lets just say no one is lining up with offers for him.

True but I just view Jakobe much higher.

Scottie and Gradey are arguably the only 2 players with positive value on the team, Jak too but as I mentioned, it seems as though we have zero intentions to move him so it's moot.

I don't think Yak has that much value tbh. Ultimately we need to move off him and RJ (the 2 picks in the draft is going to create an issue with minutes).

Our future pretty much hinges of the upcoming draft, things could either look very bright next year or very bleak.

I appreciate the effort you put into breaking up the post, don't take me not doing the same as an insult, I just lack that kind of patience lol.

Reed and JKW are not comparable, one is playing extremely limited minutes on a very good team, and the other is playing backup minutes on a horrendous team. And even if all stats were even, Reed still has more value if for no other reason that being a 3rd pick. I understand you value JKW more and that's fine, but from a strict asset standpoint, Reed has absolutely more value just by the nature of his draft position, whether or not that makes sense is a different story.

You and I have seemingly always been in agreement on Rj, so no need to touch on that.

As for IQ, since we're evaluating their value at the present time, all I can do is use his performance to date vs his contract to determine value. Yeah it's been 7 games (8 now), but they have been pretty underwhelming. 15.1/2.3/6.6 on 38/33/92 splits is rather crappy. And his stats after joining us last year weren't exactly setting the world on fire either 18/5/7 on 42/39/84. At the present time on hi current new contract, he is bordering on negative value. Not saying that it is how it will remain, but rather as it is now he cant even put up good stats on one of the worst team of the last 2 seasons.

As for Houston/Cavs and hitting on picks, I'm not missing your point. I understand they are better off because they hit on multiple picks. What I am saying, is that they hit on multiple picks, because they had more picks. They didn't get a good pick and then go right into retool mode and try to build up the team. They ate dirt as they should, to get as many kicks at the can as they could, then when they had said hits, they started to build, and now they are in a MUCH better position than we are. Masai is addicted to retooling and never rebuilding properly, and it is the precise reason we are in the **** situation we are. Also, the players I mentioned taking leaps for Houston were Sengun/Amen, not Green/Jabari lol

As I've mentioned before, Masai was saved by Tampa, and he will be saved this year by a mountain of injuries. There isn't a snowballs chance in hell Masai was aiming for anything less than a 30-35 win season and chasing the play in. And if that had actually worked out, we would continue to be mired in mediocrity hoping and praying we beat the odds and draft a Giannis/Kawhi type find in the teens.

Could you imagine this team if it wasn't for tampa? The only bright spot on this horrific team would never have made it here, and that situation was gifted to him. This season is a repeat.

It's truly difficult to tell with IQ (and if he's still not fully healed), no doubt he's started crappy, but hey, it's helped the tank.

I honestly think regression to the mean is coming with the guy (do you expect him to keep being a .514 TS% guy? I don't.

He's currently .462 at the rim, career .661

From 0-10 feet he's been very poor, from 10-3P he's 50% or over and 3P at .326. These numbers are way too sporadic in a very small simple size.

I'm honestly more higher on him because he's a fast twitch athlete, if he can maintain his midrange decently and get his 0-10ft numbers up we could have something here. (his 3P shooting will climb i'm sure)

The irony here though is that if he does, it likely hurts the tank, so a double edged sword.

As for RJ there's very little to discuss, there actually really no outliers positively or negatively in regards to his career numbers too much. 60% ish rim guy, 40% ish from 3-10 feet, ok 3P shooter, seems about right. He's not shooting lights out, nor is he hurting your 3P shooting too much.

As for Masai, his past mistakes have been talked to death now. This is pretty much the draft that will either sink us or have our team thrive going forwards. Teams typically need at least 2 real game changers from the draft to climb, we have 1, but need another.

[720]

[tsherkin]

Nice.

Yeah, very solid game from Scottie. Looked good in the 4th. Nothing really to complain about, lots of positives to jabber about

[YogurtProducer]

Yes, one game proves everything

Sure if you ignore the fact that one guy has never been better than the other player at any point in their career.

So you think Garland instead of Quickley would significantly change our future?

That is the entire question here that you seem to ignore.

[Scase]

It's truly difficult to tell with IQ (and if he's still not fully healed), no doubt he's started crappy, but hey, it's helped the tank.

I honestly think regression to the mean is coming with the guy (do you expect him to keep being a .514 TS% guy? I don't.

He's currently .462 at the rim, career .661

From 0-10 feet he's been very poor, from 10-3P he's 50% or over and 3P at .326. These numbers are way too sporadic in a very small simple size.

I'm honestly more higher on him because he's a fast twitch athlete, if he can maintain his midrange decently and get his 0-10ft numbers up we could have something here. (his 3P shooting will climb i'm sure)

The irony here though is that if he does, it likely hurts the tank, so a double edged sword.

As for RJ there's very little to discuss, there actually really no outliers positively or negatively in regards to his career numbers too much. 60% ish rim guy, 40% ish from 3-10 feet, ok 3P shooter, seems about right. He's not shooting lights out, nor is he hurting your 3P shooting too much.

As for Masai, his past mistakes have been talked to death now. This is pretty much the draft that will either sink us or have our team thrive going forwards. Teams typically need at least 2 real game changers from the draft to climb, we have 1, but need another.

The thing with IQ is, that even if he regresses to the mean, that's still not a particularly impactful player, nor is it worth the salary that we've given him. We gave him a contract based on imaginary performance, and a hope that he will grow into it, we shouldn't be celebrating his poor performance helping the tank, the injuries are what we should be "happy" about helping the tank.

I still think he can get better, but I've always thought the contract was an overpay. He's definitely a longer term piece than RJ, but that's not really much of a compliment.

Lastly, we can't say forget about the past mistakes, if they are the exact reason we are here. Not to mention that one of those mistakes, arguably the biggest, happened relatively recently.

[Scase]

Weird, I've been beating the drum about how we need to get him more in the post and mid range so he can score from his strong spots and allowing him to facilitate for the team, better than way out at the 3.

And then he goes on to have one of his best games of the year, against the best team in the league.......weird.

[YogurtProducer]

It's truly difficult to tell with IQ (and if he's still not fully healed), no doubt he's started crappy, but hey, it's helped the tank.

I honestly think regression to the mean is coming with the guy (do you expect him to keep being a .514 TS% guy? I don't.

He's currently .462 at the rim, career .661

From 0-10 feet he's been very poor, from 10-3P he's 50% or over and 3P at .326. These numbers are way too sporadic in a very small simple size.

I'm honestly more higher on him because he's a fast twitch athlete, if he can maintain his midrange decently and get his 0-10ft numbers up we could have something here. (his 3P shooting will climb i'm sure)

The irony here though is that if he does, it likely hurts the tank, so a double edged sword.

As for RJ there's very little to discuss, there actually really no outliers positively or negatively in regards to his career numbers too much. 60% ish rim guy, 40% ish from 3-10 feet, ok 3P shooter, seems about right. He's not shooting lights out, nor is he hurting your 3P shooting too much.

As for Masai, his past mistakes have been talked to death now. This is pretty much the draft that will either sink us or have our team thrive going forwards. Teams typically need at least 2 real game changers from the draft to climb, we have 1, but need another.

The thing with IQ is, that even if he regresses to the mean, that's still not a particularly impactful player, nor is it worth the salary that we've given him. We gave him a contract based on imaginary performance, and a hope that he will grow into it, we shouldn't be celebrating his poor performance helping the tank, the injuries are what we should be "happy" about helping the tank.

I still think he can get better, but I've always thought the contract was an overpay. He's definitely a longer term piece than RJ, but that's not really much of a compliment.

Lastly, we can't say forget about the past mistakes, if they are the exact reason we are here. Not to mention that one of those mistakes, arguably the biggest, happened relatively recently.

You don't think IQ would be worth the pay equivalent of a 3rd-ish option in his prime?

So far he has shown he is at a minimum going to be a a 19/7 type guy, with room to grow if he adds some more to his game (which is completely possible as a guy who has been a PG, let alone a starter, for 40ish games).

His contract really is fine, with the potential to be a bit of a bargain if he develops how Toronto has developed their players in the past. "A contract based on imaginery performance". Welcome to signing players coming off their rookie deal.

[YogurtProducer]

Since IQ's return Scottie has been really good not being the main PG. Super small sample of 5 games but.

23.2/7.8/5.2 on .567/.412 and 1.6 steals and 1.2 blocks

[Scase]

It's truly difficult to tell with IQ (and if he's still not fully healed), no doubt he's started crappy, but hey, it's helped the tank.

I honestly think regression to the mean is coming with the guy (do you expect him to keep being a .514 TS% guy? I don't.

He's currently .462 at the rim, career .661

From 0-10 feet he's been very poor, from 10-3P he's 50% or over and 3P at .326. These numbers are way too sporadic in a very small simple size.

I'm honestly more higher on him because he's a fast twitch athlete, if he can maintain his midrange decently and get his 0-10ft numbers up we could have something here. (his 3P shooting will climb i'm sure)

The irony here though is that if he does, it likely hurts the tank, so a double edged sword.

As for RJ there's very little to discuss, there actually really no outliers positively or negatively in regards to his career numbers too much. 60% ish rim guy, 40% ish from 3-10 feet, ok 3P shooter, seems about right. He's not shooting lights out, nor is he hurting your 3P shooting too much.

As for Masai, his past mistakes have been talked to death now. This is pretty much the draft that will either sink us or have our team thrive going forwards. Teams typically need at least 2 real game changers from the draft to climb, we have 1, but need another.

The thing with IQ is, that even if he regresses to the mean, that's still not a particularly impactful player, nor is it worth the salary that we've given him. We gave him a contract based on imaginary performance, and a hope that he will grow into it, we shouldn't be celebrating his poor performance helping the tank, the injuries are what we should be "happy" about helping the tank.

I still think he can get better, but I've always thought the contract was an overpay. He's definitely a longer term piece than RJ, but that's not really much of a compliment.

Lastly, we can't say forget about the past mistakes, if they are the exact reason we are here. Not to mention that one of those mistakes, arguably the biggest, happened relatively recently.

You don't think IQ would be worth the pay equivalent of a 3rd-ish option in his prime?

So far he has shown he is at a minimum going to be a a 19/7 type guy, with room to grow if he adds some more to his game (which is completely possible as a guy who has been a PG, let alone a starter, for 40ish games).

His contract really is fine, with the potential to be a bit of a bargain if he develops how Toronto has developed their players in the past. "A contract based on imaginery performance". Welcome to signing players coming off their rookie deal.

He has not shown he would be that "at minimum", he's also going to be 26 in 5 months, so no I don't expect him to develop like past players. Signing players off their rookie deals for big contracts usually isn't something you get concerned about for lotto picks, not 25th OA picks.

IQ is fine, I'm not saying he is some major issue with the team, but I'm not also going to blow smoke up my own ass and pretend like he's got some major room for growth and development. If you want to, be my guest but I'm not someone who gets blown away by 30-40 game sample sizes, you clearly do.

[PushDaRock]

The middy looks more and more real by the day. Having an elite go to move raises his ceiling significantly offensively. He needs to get to the line more and shoot the 3 much better but baby steps and hopefully at some point he puts it all together.

[TorontoBarneys]

Since IQ's return Scottie has been really good not being the main PG. Super small sample of 5 games but.

23.2/7.8/5.2 on .567/.412 and 1.6 steals and 1.2 blocks

These are all-nba numbers. Here's hoping he can keep it up.