Windhorst: Raptors making noise around the league looking for a “big fish” // Giannis & Toronto "Mutual Interest"/KD too

[ciueli]

I'm gonna feel for RJ when he's traded. He seemed really happy to be home.

If it comes to us getting Giannis and fielding a team that's legit, we gotta do it, I think.

But I'd feel for RJ as well. I don't think Giannis is coming, and if that is the case, I hope we give RJ a chance to show us what he's got with the improved team.

The problem is that somebody has to go because we can't afford all of Scottie, Ingram, Jak, IQ, and Barrett past this season. If it's not Barrett, then who is going? Barrett is easily the most replaceable with Gradey, Ochai, and Ja'Kobe all capable of playing SG.

[NotMyKawhi]

I'm gonna feel for RJ when he's traded. He seemed really happy to be home.

If it comes to us getting Giannis and fielding a team that's legit, we gotta do it, I think.

But I'd feel for RJ as well. I don't think Giannis is coming, and if that is the case, I hope we give RJ a chance to show us what he's got with the improved team.

The problem is that somebody has to go because we can't afford all of Scottie, Ingram, Jak, IQ, and Barrett past this season. If it's not Barrett, then who is going? Barrett is easily the most replaceable with Gradey, Ochai, and Ja'Kobe all capable of playing SG.

Best to do KD and Royce for IQ and RJ. It's actually cheaper than IQ and RJ and will never get more expensive. Royce 40+ from 3 and plays D. We got a lot of guys who wanna be Him and not enough role players.

I like the trade.

[mtcan]

If it comes to us getting Giannis and fielding a team that's legit, we gotta do it, I think.

But I'd feel for RJ as well. I don't think Giannis is coming, and if that is the case, I hope we give RJ a chance to show us what he's got with the improved team.

The problem is that somebody has to go because we can't afford all of Scottie, Ingram, Jak, IQ, and Barrett past this season. If it's not Barrett, then who is going? Barrett is easily the most replaceable with Gradey, Ochai, and Ja'Kobe all capable of playing SG.

Best to do KD and Royce for IQ and RJ. It's actually cheaper than IQ and RJ and will never get more expensive. Royce 40+ from 3 and plays D. We got a lot of guys who wanna be Him and not enough role players.

I like the trade.

Gonna have to find another way to get Royce because the Suns are a 2nd apron tax team so they can't aggregate salaries in a trade. It's gonna have to be one trade for KD alone and a separate trade for Royce alone.

[tsherkin]

The problem is that somebody has to go because we can't afford all of Scottie, Ingram, Jak, IQ, and Barrett past this season. If it's not Barrett, then who is going? Barrett is easily the most replaceable with Gradey, Ochai, and Ja'Kobe all capable of playing SG.

Yeah, I mean those are guys to explore to see if they can become what RJ already is (or better), for sure.

It's surely gonna be trouble to juggle the numbers, but I hope we don't do it foolishly if we do it. I think we need to give RJ a chance to show us what he looks like in this upcoming environment. If he looks more like 2025 than 2024, then sure, go for it (again, barring a Giannis deal), but like... it'd be a little screwy if we lost out on what he could be early in the season just trying to get ahead of the finances, you know?

IQ is... whatever. He's a little dude who isn't a staggering playmaker, and he mainly brings 3pt shooting. Spacers are gonna be available. I think of the two, I'd rather sacrifice IQ. He isn't good inside the arc, he isn't a particularly efficient guy, he just doesn't really provide enough value that I'd want to keep him over giving RJ a chance to show us what he's got. He has, what, 4 or 5 years left at 30 something million?

I dunno. It'll be a tough call, for sure.

[Tor_Raps]

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Tweet is from over 24 hours ago... you think we haven't discussed this to death already?

[NinjaBro]

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Let's fkn gooooo!!!!

[Tacoma]

Let's be honest... NBA defense is dogpoop anyway and I actually don't really care about "his defense sucks", it's a team/scheme anyway. You can hide "bad defenders", at least until the NBA let's these guys play. There was a good first step in killing off the Harden/Luca BS. Bring the hand check back.

There are so few high level one on one defenders in the league. I'm not sure if it's how the league has evolved, or it's simply ridiculously hard because of how athletic these freaks are.

Ingram is going to be massive if the Raptors medical staff can keep him on the floor 70+ games a year (plus playoffs). We don't have Ingram's medical records, and I think the Raptors are pretty confident in being able to do that. The Pelicans are currently the worst run organization in the NBA, and maybe their medical staff is as bad as their player personel department.

Who gives a poop about "all star" selections? Fans will vote for their favourite player even if they were dead. It's probably the worst metric to measure a player's worth. Nevermind who actually watches that crap?
....

Someone started a poll a week before the BI trade asking if we preferred Zion, Ingram or neither, and Ingram finished 3rd with less than 1/5 wanting him here. Since BI has been traded here, we've gone from not wanting him to be traded here to excusing his shortcomings to be our great hope.

If our medical staff couldn't keep so many injuries from happening to all of our starters this past season, what makes you so confident we can get him to play "70+ games a year" which he's done exactly once and that was in his rookie year 9 seasons ago? It's wishful thinking.

And "pooping" about all star selection is ironic given it's one of the best things he has accomplished. Otherwise, his resume is rather meh. He has made the playoffs twice in his 9 seasons, but he is expected to lead us into the playoffs? He won MIP in 2020 and he's going to need to repeat that if he is going to do the things people are expected of him to do next season.

Not saying he isn't good but we should really tone down expectations. He's what he is, don't expect another MIP season out of him in his 10th season.

[NotMyKawhi]

The problem is that somebody has to go because we can't afford all of Scottie, Ingram, Jak, IQ, and Barrett past this season. If it's not Barrett, then who is going? Barrett is easily the most replaceable with Gradey, Ochai, and Ja'Kobe all capable of playing SG.

Best to do KD and Royce for IQ and RJ. It's actually cheaper than IQ and RJ and will never get more expensive. Royce 40+ from 3 and plays D. We got a lot of guys who wanna be Him and not enough role players.

I like the trade.

Gonna have to find another way to get Royce because the Suns are a 2nd apron tax team so they can't aggregate salaries in a trade. It's gonna have to be one trade for KD alone and a separate trade for Royce alone.

Didn't know that.

We do have ocahi, dick and jakobe on the bench. Still like the idea of

Kd, cam, 19 and 26

IQ, ocahi, battle raps 26 1st

RJ 9 to the nets.

[tsherkin]

Let's be honest... NBA defense is dogpoop anyway and I actually don't really care about "his defense sucks", it's a team/scheme anyway. You can hide "bad defenders", at least until the NBA let's these guys play. There was a good first step in killing off the Harden/Luca BS. Bring the hand check back.

The handcheck would do nothing to those guys, though. It wouldn't do anything to stop the endless screen and rolls that those guys run, nor the stepback 3s and stuff. It's a myth that it would be of much significance at all to those guys.

There are so few high level one on one defenders in the league. I'm not sure if it's how the league has evolved, or it's simply ridiculously hard because of how athletic these freaks are.

A lot of it is the spacing, and the usage of the 3. Like, there's only so much you can do defensively when everyone on the floor can shoot, hangs out behind the 3pt line and then the ball-handler runs a screen and roll. Obviously, you assess relative shooting value, you load up the way the rules let you, there's stuff. But at 100 possessions per game with huge 3pt volume and the kind of spacing we have today, you need size and athleticism with hella mobility on defense with strong coordination. And honestly, the D isn't that much different than the 80s apart from the odd hard foul.

We have some of the older generation romanticizing the 80s and early/mid 90s. We have some people assuming certain playoff series were representative of entire eras. We have some people who remember 98-04, as if that defines all of basketball before now. And a lot of them don't really appreciate what it means that the skill level of shooters at size have changed so much. Like, it totally alters the fundamental way you have to defend, right? Same same with more advanced use of screen and roll. It existed in the NBA before now, but the Jazz were a revolutionary precision system in the 90s, and they'd be well behind the curve in today's game, be they the Stockton/Malone flavor OR the Deron/Boozer flavor.

One on one defense is hard, and you will get beat. It's that simple. That's a known mentality. Even DPOY guys from back in the day like Michael Cooper acknowledged, you're just trying to make things HARDER for the big ones, not like you're generally going to consistently stop them. That takes a team, and even then, it may not work.

[ash_k]

Your medical team/fitness team only becomes an issue when most of the injuries are hamstring type of injuries; fitness/conditioning related issues.
Our medical team has been dealing with mostly ankle sprains, nothing concerning. It is on the players not to put themselves at risk with some of those actions leading to "sprains"
Going back to the first point, NO clearly has had issues there.

One thing for certain, too many don't know what we have in BI.
Recently you may have heard on the Windhorsts podcast that Siakam is "better" than BI:
"Currency" says yes Pascal is the ECF MVP/playoff performer and BI has not played in 6 months. But talent wise is not close! BI can do everything Pascal does(except those quick spins) at a very high-level, Pascal cannot do everything BI does.
Trust our medical team.

We are in a great position either way: KD or Giannis(as long as we dont give years of draft picks) or Stay the course.
I am not trading Yak! We have suffered too much to get that center! KD-BI-Scottie-Yak=I would almost expect LOB!

[ArthurVandelay]

Could ask for Nick Richards back in that trade. We're also not giving up #9 so could draft a big (Malauch, Sorber, Queen).

We likely become a 2nd apron team or very close to one. And that's where it becomes dumb. If we can clear the 2nd apron comfortably and just be a tax team I'm probably okay with it, but would probably still lean no. I really like KD too, just don't see the fit. Not with the guys we have, and where he is in his career.

I don't see why the KD offer isn't just Ingram + young players, Ingram + Dick + Ja'Kobe + Castleton works. I don't know why we'd even want to keep Ingram if we're trading for KD, they are the same type of player, KD is just better.

I would go as far as saying Ingram is untouchable at the present moment. Masai would get eviscerated if he traded him after he directed his way to the Raps and actually wanted to re-sign. And I mean eviscerated by BI's agent, and fellow players. I know some will say who cares because Toronto is not a FA destination anyway, but there is just no way Masai trades him before he suits up for us.

I think they’d be nuts to trade BI. He has become extremely underrated here. People don’t seem to recognize he is easily the top 3 skilled player to play for Raptors after Vince and Kawhi. It will be highway robbery if he can play 65-70 games this year.

[Scase]

The problem is that somebody has to go because we can't afford all of Scottie, Ingram, Jak, IQ, and Barrett past this season. If it's not Barrett, then who is going? Barrett is easily the most replaceable with Gradey, Ochai, and Ja'Kobe all capable of playing SG.

Yeah, I mean those are guys to explore to see if they can become what RJ already is (or better), for sure.

It's surely gonna be trouble to juggle the numbers, but I hope we don't do it foolishly if we do it. I think we need to give RJ a chance to show us what he looks like in this upcoming environment. If he looks more like 2025 than 2024, then sure, go for it (again, barring a Giannis deal), but like... it'd be a little screwy if we lost out on what he could be early in the season just trying to get ahead of the finances, you know?

IQ is... whatever. He's a little dude who isn't a staggering playmaker, and he mainly brings 3pt shooting. Spacers are gonna be available. I think of the two, I'd rather sacrifice IQ. He isn't good inside the arc, he isn't a particularly efficient guy, he just doesn't really provide enough value that I'd want to keep him over giving RJ a chance to show us what he's got. He has, what, 4 or 5 years left at 30 something million?

I dunno. It'll be a tough call, for sure.

2025 looks a lot more like the rest of his career, while 2024 looks like the outlier. Playing the wait and see approach opens us up to him regressing and losing value in the eyes of other teams. He was never meant to be a permanent fixture, but rather the buy low/sell high that everyone claims the BI acquisition was. We've missed enough boats being overly patient, if something good comes up, we should be moving him.

IQ is likely harder to move due to his contract, but realistically we still need someone to play PG, and Shead isn't (and likely won't ever be) ready to be a starting guard in the NBA. I'd shed no tears if either of them was moved for something better.

[WuTang_CMB]

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[JS_raptors]

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[tsherkin]

2025 looks a lot more like the rest of his career, while 2024 looks like the outlier. Playing the wait and see approach opens us up to him regressing and losing value in the eyes of other teams. He was never meant to be a permanent fixture, but rather the buy low/sell high that everyone claims the BI acquisition was. We've missed enough boats being overly patient, if something good comes up, we should be moving him.

I agree, however, the Knicks in his career were 28th, 23rd, 22nd and 3rd on offense in his career prior to the trade season... and when they were third, it wasn't from spacing (19th in 3P%, 20th in eFG%), it was from ball protection and offensive rebounding. They were an injury-riddled mess his rookie year, and Elfrid Payton was their lead guard. A year later, they were 3rd in 3P% but 27th in 3PA (and he was still camping in the corner and shooting quite well, that was a >40% 3P season for him). Then they were 30th in 2P%, 12th in 3P% and 10th in 3PA. Half a season from Kemba Walker in his 30s at the point, 26 games of bench-life Derrick Rose. Then in 2023, 19th in 3P%, and they finally got Jalen Brunson... who is good, but he's certainly no Steve Nash, he's more of a scorer.

So we haven't really seen him in a well-spaced environment, and we've only seen one full season of him alongside a lead guard of real consequence. Plus, his 2P% this year was the second-highest of his career, and the only full season (injuries notwithstanding) of him shooting 50%+ inside the arc. AND we don't use him from the corner as much as they did in New York, AND he had the 2nd-worst FT% of his career.

I think the potential is there. We'll have to see what comes of these various off-season rumors, though. Some of them would be pretty hard to resist, for sure.

IQ is likely harder to move due to his contract, but realistically we still need someone to play PG, and Shead isn't (and likely won't ever be) ready to be a starting guard in the NBA. I'd shed no tears if either of them was moved for something better.

He isn't a PG, though. He isn't a better passer than RJ, isn't a guy who drives a ton more, doesn't draw fouls better, etc, etc. He's a small scoring guard whose value to us primarily comes from ATB 3pt shooting and the fact that he applies any kind of rim pressure. He's a decent tertiary option type of guy, but he also looks pretty capped out.

[tsherkin]

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Dunno why they'd try to cash in for KD; even with him, they aren't ready to compete for a title.

[Clutch0z24]

Most likely Durant ends up on the Spurs with Wemby/Fox.....Especially if thats what Durant wants on his contract year and at his age thats what he will get....

[djsunyc]

I'm gonna feel for RJ when he's traded. He seemed really happy to be home.

If it comes to us getting Giannis and fielding a team that's legit, we gotta do it, I think.

But I'd feel for RJ as well. I don't think Giannis is coming, and if that is the case, I hope we give RJ a chance to show us what he's got with the improved team.

The problem is that somebody has to go because we can't afford all of Scottie, Ingram, Jak, IQ, and Barrett past this season. If it's not Barrett, then who is going? Barrett is easily the most replaceable with Gradey, Ochai, and Ja'Kobe all capable of playing SG.

everything wont get solved this summer let alone early june. it's ok not knowing how things will play out and to just let it breathe.

[tsherkin]

everything wont get solved this summer let alone early june. it's ok not knowing how things will play out and to just let it breathe.

That's certainly true, but we're desperate not only for something to dig into that's different than the same rehashed stuff, but for something NEW.

[TGM]

I don’t buy the theory that Milwaukee wants Giannis to stay put. At the end of the day the NBA is a business. Even if Lillard was healthy they would have not gone to the conference finals in the East. Add in everyone is on the the decline of their career. Don’t see how waiting till 2026-2027 to compete when Dame is back makes any sense and they have no assets to improve. So it makes all the sense to cash in on Giannis and trade for some proven guys with potential and just draft some young guys and try to develop next season. That is their best play. They might be giving up a top pick, but could be back in the late lottery/ play-in team a year from now. Lillard almost gets traded for sure. They should also S and T Lopez to gain more assets.

Milwaukee absolutely wants him to stay. He is the most beloved athlete in that city's history, and extremely involved in the community (including 2 new initiatives just since the season ended). He means more to that franchise than anything Barnes, RJ and Dick can bring LOL. No team wants to trade a guy who has been in the top 4 for MVP votes for 7 consecutive years. You never win those trades. They'll trade him if he asks out, and it WILL be to a team on his desired list. But if he doesn't ask out, they will never trade him.

Yeah he's retiring there if they had the choice. Plus ownership wants to keep for value of team. No ownership group wants to lose a player like that. Heck, Ed rogers just paid $500M to Vladdy because the fans love him and not even for his production lol

More the reason why you trade him if you want to keep the value of the team. I don’t see a Bucks franchise with no view of winning another championship be more attractive than a Bucks team that is starting a rebuild and has a championship piece like Barnes. When you buy a business you don’t buy it for the past. You buy it for the present and future.

Roger’s gave Vladdy the deal is totally an asset management play. Yes the fans played a factor, but the bigger factor was that he is 26, just had a great 2024 season and he didn’t want to lose Vladdy for nothing. If Vladdy player like crap in 2024 no way would he have gotten that deal even if he was a fan favorite. Vladdy was an overpay to retain an asset, appease the fan base and try to contend. Baseball is different from basketball, you can’t just blow up your payroll with little constrains. The Bucks need to work within the new CBA. I bet why the rumour mill is quiet is cause the Bucks need to field the best deal, but if they don’t get the best deal they don’t want to so dirty to Giannis. Masai being one of the most tight lipped GMs in the league if in the bucks trading to gauge value I would probably talk to someone like Masai just knowing that the rumour won’t spread.