Draft Thread Part 4

[Buff]

How is Sabonis not a winning player? They won high 40s and low 50s since he's been on the team with the sole exception of this injury-plagued year. And he just turned 25. Put better players around him and he'll win even more, most likely. Either way, it would be a home run to get a 20/12/7 guy at #7. Just like it would be a home run to draft KAT @#7.

The reason you take Sengun is that he's put up massive numbers at 18. You can like a whole bunch of wings and guards. I do, too, but none of them will come close to being as productive as Sengun and only a couple are the same age.

This is a good point, we are also looking at accumulating assets, if we had a Sabonis or a KAT we could easily trade 'em for better fit.

[Indeed]

This isnt the time to go with Birch/Gillespie rotation. Team needs a major upgrade at the 5 and he shows promise. If he plays well at Olympics and measures good, he’s tops on our list at 7/8 with barnes, johnson.

You keep coming back to Birch-Gillespie which shows a single track mind. The point is trade or sign the player that will fill the role of starter - we have the money. They need to be able to contain or at least compete against Embiid. It is not a player you need to play every game or to play 36 minutes. It certainly is not a player from FIBA at 18 with our best pick since Poetl.

All Masai's picks since Bruno have been NCAA and it wasn't man's league at issue rather it was coaching, program and player progress. Above all else it was a defence first culture with motor.

Sengun might be Dan Tolzman's pick for all I know but we've never won anything building around a big. Molding around a tough strong 2-3 like number 2 who we had for one brief flash should have shown anyone paying attention where championships come from.

If we don’t move up, we aren’t getting a player to build around. Hope to find a good starter, maybe an all star.

That is not true, Giannis and Leonard are drafted below 10th pick, Butler was drafted in late 1st. There are raw players who can be developed into good starter. The top shows more things they can transition to the NBA, but mid-1st are usually high risk/high reward (high ceiling and raw).

[Tofubeque]

How is Sabonis not a winning player? They won high 40s and low 50s since he's been on the team with the sole exception of this injury-plagued year. And he just turned 25. Put better players around him and he'll win even more, most likely. Either way, it would be a home run to get a 20/12/7 guy at #7. Just like it would be a home run to draft KAT @#7.

The reason you take Sengun is that he's put up massive numbers at 18. You can like a whole bunch of wings and guards. I do, too, but none of them will come close to being as productive as Sengun and only a couple are the same age.

The Pacers haven't won 50 games since Paul George and Hibbert were there. They've topped out at 48 wins and the 4th seed recently, and did have some impressive ranks in defensive rating with McMillan as coach (3rd in 2018-19, 6th in 2019-20). But that was with Myles Turner starting every game at C. Sabonis has only been a full-time starter the past 2 years, and mostly at PF.

The problem with Sabonis is he does his best work inside, so their offense tanks when he and Turner play together because there's not enough spacing. Meanwhile he's not a good defensive C on his own. Turner gets a lot of flak for not being a good fit with him, but the number of Cs in the league who can be both ideal floor spacers and ideal rim protectors is basically zero. Sabonis is neither. If a team wins a championship with a big like Sabonis, it will be the first time. Their defense predictably fell off this year when Turner went out, and Sabonis may have even been one of the voices pushing for Bjorkgren to get fired after asking him to do too much on defense. That's just speculation though.

Anyway I agree that Sengun might be really productive, especially on a middling team, and there's value to drafting a player like that in the 8-10 range. But I've argued that the best use of his value would be packaging him for a more conventional star, like OKC did for Paul George. If this draft is so loaded, you'd obviously rather just try to draft that star if you have a lottery pick.

[Morse Code]

I neeeeeeed Kai Jones on this team. He can guard point guards ffs. Everyone says he’s athletic but doesn’t know how to play basketball yet or have any elite skill, but that’s not true. He is an elite defender on the perimeter. Elite. He’s also an amazing lob catcher, rim runner, and shoots those pick and pops at about 39%. That sounds like true skills to me. He will be the fastest big man in the league once drafted. Like a taller, more athletic, way better shooting but worse rebounding rookie Siakam. Put a little more weight on him and put him through the nick nurse school of basketball and he could be special. Could be absolutely dominant.

[Indeed]

2nd round anyone?

Watch on YouTube

Last we discussed he has a 7'2 wingspan?

Vrenz Bleijenbergh measures at 6'10 with 7'2 wingspan, project to be a 2nd round pick.
He is only 200lb, so it is hard to see him play at PF, but his shooting seems to be good. His handle seems to be a bit high (left hand in particular), and unlikely to turn the corner, but a good passer. May have slight concern on his lateral quickness, perhaps needs to play the position and make use of his length, but I wonder how we compare him with Wagner.

Watch on YouTube

I wouldn't mind taking a flyer on this kid with one of our 2nd round picks.

[Loso04]

The Raptors are working out Tyson Etienne, thoughts on him in the second round?

Watch on YouTube

https://raptorsrapture.com/2021/06/14/toronto-raptors-draft-wichita-state-tyson-etienne/

[ATLTimekeeper]

The Pacers haven't won 50 games since Paul George and Hibbert were there. They've topped out at 48 wins and the 4th seed recently, and did have some impressive ranks in defensive rating with McMillan as coach (3rd in 2018-19, 6th in 2019-20). But that was with Myles Turner starting every game at C. Sabonis has only been a full-time starter the past 2 years, and mostly at PF.

It's semantics, but last year's .616% is 50 wins.

Anyway I agree that Sengun might be really productive, especially on a middling team, and there's value to drafting a player like that in the 8-10 range. But I've argued that the best use of his value would be packaging him for a more conventional star, like OKC did for Paul George. If this draft is so loaded, you'd obviously rather just try to draft that star if you have a lottery pick.

I mean, Paul George won 48 and 49 games when he was with OKC as the "best player." Indy basically matched that with the Sabonis/Dipo talent swap. The problem with that line of thinking is that it assumes the draft is full of Paul Georges beyond #6, and it's just a matter of the Raptors doing their homework.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

The Pacers haven't won 50 games since Paul George and Hibbert were there. They've topped out at 48 wins and the 4th seed recently, and did have some impressive ranks in defensive rating with McMillan as coach (3rd in 2018-19, 6th in 2019-20). But that was with Myles Turner starting every game at C. Sabonis has only been a full-time starter the past 2 years, and mostly at PF.

It's semantics, but last year's .616% is 50 wins.

Anyway I agree that Sengun might be really productive, especially on a middling team, and there's value to drafting a player like that in the 8-10 range. But I've argued that the best use of his value would be packaging him for a more conventional star, like OKC did for Paul George. If this draft is so loaded, you'd obviously rather just try to draft that star if you have a lottery pick.

I mean, Paul George won 48 and 49 games when he was with OKC as the "best player." Indy basically matched that with the Sabonis/Dipo talent swap. The problem with that line of thinking is that it assumes the draft is full of Paul Georges beyond #6, and it's just a matter of the Raptors doing their homework.

i would take anything last year and throw it out the window tbh. it was a bubble season.

[andyo]

I really believe we need to try to get into the top 5 this year (though I'm not particularly high on Suggs). If we don't get lucky in the lottery, we should try to package next year's pick or some other combination of assets to move up.

[niQ]

2nd round anyone?

Watch on YouTube

Last we discussed he has a 7'2 wingspan?

Vrenz Bleijenbergh measures at 6'10 with 7'2 wingspan, project to be a 2nd round pick.
He is only 200lb, so it is hard to see him play at PF, but his shooting seems to be good. His handle seems to be a bit high (left hand in particular), and unlikely to turn the corner, but a good passer. May have slight concern on his lateral quickness, perhaps needs to play the position and make use of his length, but I wonder how we compare him with Wagner.

Watch on YouTube

I wouldn't mind taking a flyer on this kid with one of our 2nd round picks.

Wait. I just realized, this guy has the height (6'10), playmaking (solid handles with excellent PNR reads along with lobs/backdoors), fast release that can stroke the 3 with deep range, AND has defensive upside. How is he not a better prospect than Giddey?

[vulture]

2nd round anyone?

Watch on YouTube

Last we discussed he has a 7'2 wingspan?

Vrenz Bleijenbergh measures at 6'10 with 7'2 wingspan, project to be a 2nd round pick.
He is only 200lb, so it is hard to see him play at PF, but his shooting seems to be good. His handle seems to be a bit high (left hand in particular), and unlikely to turn the corner, but a good passer. May have slight concern on his lateral quickness, perhaps needs to play the position and make use of his length, but I wonder how we compare him with Wagner.

Watch on YouTube

I wouldn't mind taking a flyer on this kid with one of our 2nd round picks.

You absolutely take a chance on a guy like this in the second round.
Big Ballhandlers who can shoot is what the game is all about.

[tecumseh18]

I neeeeeeed Kai Jones on this team. He can guard point guards ffs. Everyone says he’s athletic but doesn’t know how to play basketball yet or have any elite skill, but that’s not true. He is an elite defender on the perimeter. Elite. He’s also an amazing lob catcher, rim runner, and shoots those pick and pops at about 39%. That sounds like true skills to me. He will be the fastest big man in the league once drafted. Like a taller, more athletic, way better shooting but worse rebounding rookie Siakam. Put a little more weight on him and put him through the nick nurse school of basketball and he could be special. Could be absolutely dominant.

No one has to be convinced that a young, bouncy Serge with outside shooting from the get-go would fit very well with these Raps. Is Kai that guy? I trust Masai & Co. to figure it out.

I look at Sengun, and I see a Frank Kaminsky who can't shoot (yet). Frank couldn't shoot when he was 18 years old either. But he never grew out of being Frank f'n Kaminsky!

[ItsDanger]

Kai Jones is discount Myles Turner. Needs work. Really someone you take based on potential. Could improve a lot so he's definitely interesting but not where we're picking. I view him as a trade target after first year.

[gerrit4]

The Pacers haven't won 50 games since Paul George and Hibbert were there. They've topped out at 48 wins and the 4th seed recently, and did have some impressive ranks in defensive rating with McMillan as coach (3rd in 2018-19, 6th in 2019-20). But that was with Myles Turner starting every game at C. Sabonis has only been a full-time starter the past 2 years, and mostly at PF.

It's semantics, but last year's .616% is 50 wins.

Anyway I agree that Sengun might be really productive, especially on a middling team, and there's value to drafting a player like that in the 8-10 range. But I've argued that the best use of his value would be packaging him for a more conventional star, like OKC did for Paul George. If this draft is so loaded, you'd obviously rather just try to draft that star if you have a lottery pick.

I mean, Paul George won 48 and 49 games when he was with OKC as the "best player." Indy basically matched that with the Sabonis/Dipo talent swap. The problem with that line of thinking is that it assumes the draft is full of Paul Georges beyond #6, and it's just a matter of the Raptors doing their homework.

i would take anything last year and throw it out the window tbh. it was a bubble season.

I guess. I mean, the sample size gets pretty small if you eliminate last season, and I'd argue that this was just as weird of a season with COVID, less games, injuries etc. So that only gives you two seasons to go off of, at 48 wins and first round exits (although, if I remember correctly, they were pretty injured for both playoffs)

[billy_hoyle]

Kai Jones is discount Myles Turner. Needs work. Really someone you take based on potential. Could improve a lot so he's definitely interesting but not where we're picking. I view him as a trade target after first year.

Always a good strategy to let other teams invest in high potential players, and when it looks like they will hit, it's very easy to trade for them.

Let's trade the 7th pick for Giannis. I'm glad the bucks developed him into an MVP. Booker would also be good, let's just trade the 7th pick for him.

There is nothing wrong with this strategy at all.

[Saciid11]

Thing is with Sengun, his ceiling is what Kevin Love? I'm not sure I'd love that pick with more potential picks that could turn out like Booker or Mitchell or Jimmy Butler.

I see Sengun more like a JV level prospect. That's a good pick in the teens. Charlotte (need a big), San Antonio, GS, Boston are good spots. I don't see him dropping past OKC at #18 to be the beefy complement to Poku. He could learn a lot from Horford. Actually, poorman's Horford is a good comp.

What is wrong with Kevin Love? If I remember correctly Love is NBA champ and as first option on terrible team he had freakish per game somewhere 34. If Sengun is anything like Love is definitely worth it, but I don't think he is rebounder Love is ...but defensively I think Sengun can be better then Love. Sengun is one of my favorite with the #7 .


1. Davion Mitchell
2. Sengun
3. Moses Moody
4. Boughknight
5. Barnes

[Dalek]

I think we are overthinking Sengun in hopes of finding a superstar. I am not even set on him, but we will get a good look at him during the Olympic qualifying. I watched his game against Jerebko /Sweden and he did really well against a stretch-big, although he wasn't going out to guard outside. Against Canada they will likely force him to guard outside and we will see how he does.

Watch on YouTube

Overall, I judge my bigs on length, but also how quick their hands are. Jokic has incredibly fast hands for his size. I see some similarities with Sengun. Especially when you look at his steal%. Even a guy like Xavier Tillman who has short arms similar to Sengun was still a plus on defense because of good positioning and good hands. We are getting him at age 18, so there is time to build good habits.

[OakleyDokely]

Interior D
Switchable on the Perimeter
Stretch the Floor

The modern bigman really needs at least 2 of these qualities, if he doesn't, he's not really useful unless he's a unique talent like Jokic who defies all logic.

[Dalek]

Read on Twitter

This is actually great that we see Giddey and Sengun in these pre-Olympic games. It is rare to see high picks actually playing team basketball. I don't Chris Duarte on the Domincan Republic, but he will be one to watch.

Roko Prkačin is third on the Croatian depth chart behind Saric and Bender. That is one loaded team full of NBA guys and Euroleague stars.

Ivica Zubac
Ante Žižić
Dario Šarić
Dragan Bender
Roko Prkačin
Bojan Bogdanović
Luka Šamanić
Mario Hezonja
Roko Ukić

[alpngso]

Interior D
Switchable on the Perimeter
Stretch the Floor

The modern bigman really needs at least 2 of these qualities, if he doesn't, he's not really useful unless he's a unique talent like Jokic who defies all logic.

i guess these are what most scouts worry about Sengun