Official Raptors 2012 NBA Draft Thread, Part 12

[Kevin Willis]

Second round makes no sense on draftexpress.

Jae, Satoransky, Joseph are too low but I'm sure they'll change it after combines etc. Now this mock drafts are pointless.

[nelabai]

MKG has the most upside in this draft.

I still can't remember any wing prospect that can't shoot, doesn't have the right size or elite athleticism to be hyped so much and to be drafted that high.

[Undefeated]

All I said was that he hasn't shown the focus and killer instinct to be a primary scoring option. During the championship run Kemba was the man and Lamb was the secondary scorer. IMO that is his MOST LIKELY role in the NBA (or a sixth man).

And he is not being underrated, most mock drafts don't even have him as a top ten prospect.

Lamb's lack of a killer instinct may be valid currently, but it doesn't mean that lack of a killer instinct will hold him back from being a primary scoring option. Most analysts and NBA players would argue that LeBron James doesn't have a killer instinct true or not, yet he's still a dominant scoring force. Let's just say, as long as the team that drafts Lamb makes an effort to get the ball into his hands and design plays for him like running him of single-doubles or staggered screens, they'll see his scoring prowess put on display. Gilbert Arenas put it best by saying that guys with no conscience are the ones with the killer instincts. From watching Lamb, I get the vibe that he's got no conscience because he seems to be so confident in his shot-creating and shot-making ability from 20-feet out that he doesn't care if it's contested or not. It's like he knows he can make any shot he launches. It's not that black and white when it comes to these things.

Lamb not being underrated? He's was projected to be a top ten lotto pick prior to the NCAA season had begun, and his stock started to slowly drop. Does it have something to do with his skills? Doubt it. Disappointing year? Most likely, but that's not a reason to pass up on Lamb because like I said, that UConn team was a hot mess. Seems to me these experts are basing Lamb's draft projection on how well UConn did after coming off their championship run than the gifted physical tools, skills and potential that he possesses.

[neurotik]

All I said was that he hasn't shown the focus and killer instinct to be a primary scoring option. During the championship run Kemba was the man and Lamb was the secondary scorer. IMO that is his MOST LIKELY role in the NBA (or a sixth man).

And he is not being underrated, most mock drafts don't even have him as a top ten prospect.

Lamb's lack of a killer instinct may be valid currently, but it doesn't mean that lack of a killer instinct will hold him back from being a primary scoring option. Most analysts and NBA players would argue that LeBron James doesn't have a killer instinct true or not, yet he's still a dominant scoring force. Let's just say, as long as the team that drafts Lamb makes an effort to get the ball into his hands and design plays for him like running him of single-doubles or staggered screens, they'll see his scoring prowess put on display. Gilbert Arenas put it best by saying that guys with no conscience are the ones with the killer instincts. From watching Lamb, I get the vibe that he's got no conscience because he seems to be so confident in his shot-creating and shot-making ability from 20-feet out that he doesn't care if it's contested or not. It's like he knows he can make any shot he launches. It's not that black and white when it comes to these things.

Lamb not being underrated? He's was projected to be a top ten lotto pick prior to the NCAA season had begun, and his stock started to slowly drop. Does it have something to do with his skills? Doubt it. Disappointing year? Most likely, but that's not a reason to pass up on Lamb because like I said, that UConn team was a hot mess. Seems to me these experts are basing Lamb's draft projection on how well UConn did after coming off their championship run than the gifted physical tools, skills and potential that he possesses.

Undefeated, I'm simply saying that I don't expect Lamb to put up a consistent effort and produce consistent results in the NBA. I expect him to be a streaky scorer.

And you're right he is very confident in his shot, but to a fault. He doesn't take advantage of his skill and drive it to the basket hard, instead he settles for jumpshots and floater/leaners. He doesn't look to dunk it on every possession like LeBron does. And that's what primary scoring caliber guards in the NBA have to do to be successful and consistent. Don't get me wrong I don't mind taking Lamb at 8, mainly because we have Casey, but my expectations are much lower than yours and that of many others on this board.

I would much rather have Sullinger. But hey, we'll know in a few years right.

[fredericklove]

[

And you're right he is very confident in his shot, but to a fault. He doesn't take advantage of his skill and drive it to the basket hard, instead he settles for jumpshots and floater/leaners. He doesn't look to dunk it on every possession like LeBron does. And that's what primary scoring caliber guards in the NBA have to do to be successful and consistent. Don't get me wrong I don't mind taking Lamb at 8, mainly because we have Casey, but my expectations are much lower than yours and that of many others on this board.

I would much rather have Sullinger. But hey, we'll know in a few years right.

What? So one will never be a primary scoring guard consistently and successfully if one doesn't play the Lebron attacking style? Why you even use lebron anyways? Don't you think its a ridiculous comparison in a different context (big athletic freak small forward vs. athletic guards comparison)? Even in today's top flight guards level, no one looks to dunk it on every possession. I'm sure a lot of guards who can't play "Lebron's style" still pretty much ends up being top caliber guards.

Eventually you'll bring up the"D-Wade" comparison so I might as well say that no one plays like D-Wade. But if we look at others, such as Joe Johnson, prime Brandon Roy, and Eric Gordon, these are guys who heavily utilize on different variety of moves (hesitations/change-of-pace/in&out/stepback moves and uses offball-screen/p&r to get their shots off, and they don't drive to the hoop that often too AND they use alot of floaters/leaners too. Your worries of lacking aggressive attacking/dunking style from a guard is definitely not the biggest concern. I would rather more concern if Lamb's handles/perimeter skills don't translate to the NBA level.

I don't mind Sully too, but if we look at a case where if both pans out. A big man with double-double a night are dime a dozen in this league but guards are rare assets, especially a good one.

[OAKLEY_2]

I don't mind Sully too, but if we look at a case where if both pans out. A big man with double-double a night are dime a dozen in this league but guards are rare assets, especially a good one.

If we are keeping Barganani his game would be a welcome spectacle at the ACC. Lillard is the dark horse in my opinion. Kid has some great skills. It will be interesting to see how close the final acquisitions are to what might be speculated.

Nash
Lillard/Kris Joseph
Barbosa

Drajic
Lamb/Satoransky
Nate Robinson

DJ Augustin
Sullinger/Jae Crowder
Steve Novak

Aaron Brooks
PJIII/Orlando Johnson
JJ Redick

[neurotik]

[

And you're right he is very confident in his shot, but to a fault. He doesn't take advantage of his skill and drive it to the basket hard, instead he settles for jumpshots and floater/leaners. He doesn't look to dunk it on every possession like LeBron does. And that's what primary scoring caliber guards in the NBA have to do to be successful and consistent. Don't get me wrong I don't mind taking Lamb at 8, mainly because we have Casey, but my expectations are much lower than yours and that of many others on this board.

I would much rather have Sullinger. But hey, we'll know in a few years right.

What? So one will never be a primary scoring guard consistently and successfully if one doesn't play the Lebron attacking style? Why you even use lebron anyways? Don't you think its a ridiculous comparison in a different context (big athletic freak small forward vs. athletic guards comparison)? Even in today's top flight guards level, no one looks to dunk it on every possession. I'm sure a lot of guards who can't play "Lebron's style" still pretty much ends up being top caliber guards.

Eventually you'll bring up the"D-Wade" comparison so I might as well say that no one plays like D-Wade. But if we look at others, such as Joe Johnson, prime Brandon Roy, and Eric Gordon, these are guys who heavily utilize on different variety of moves (hesitations/change-of-pace/in&out/stepback moves and uses offball-screen/p&r to get their shots off, and they don't drive to the hoop that often too AND they use alot of floaters/leaners too. Your worries of lacking aggressive attacking/dunking style from a guard is definitely not the biggest concern. I would rather more concern if Lamb's handles/perimeter skills don't translate to the NBA level.

I don't mind Sully too, but if we look at a case where if both pans out. A big man with double-double a night are dime a dozen in this league but guards are rare assets, especially a good one.

I used LeBron as my example because I was replying to Undefeated's previous quote where he had started with that example. But my point stands, name me one primary scoring guard that leads his team to wins who doesn't get to the FT line on a consistent basis.

With regards to Sullinger, he does all the intangibles that it takes to win to go along with his production. And since when are big men who average a double double a dime a dozen? A big that gets you a double double every night, while being a decent scoring option (ie not simply rebound points) and provides leadership is a rare asset not a commodity.

Guards who are streaky scorers and don't consistently get to the line, they are a dime a dozen.

[GP2]

Participants of the Nets Combine:

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Net ... eview-3919

No big names. Anyone people would want from that list as a 2nd rounder?

[Marlo Stanfield]

Participants of the Nets Combine:

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Net ... eview-3919

No big names. Anyone people would want from that list as a 2nd rounder?

Names I'm paying attention to include:

Kim English
Tu Holloway
Scott Machado
Darius Johnson-Odom
Renardo Sidney
Jae Crowder
Evan Fournier
Orlando Johnson
Robert Sacre

So I think there is some talent to watch. I'll definitely be the most interested in Crowder, DJ-O and Johnson.

[GP2]

Also, for those who have followed Lamb, what's the consensus? I wanted Beal before we plummeted to the 8th pick and now hope we can get Lamb or Lillard (considering the prime targets are gone).

Besides the physical tools of Lamb (primarily length), would his game be a welcome addition here or redundant? Is it a bank on potential? Does he have a refined game or is he of the Nick Young mould?

[DarrylFlicking]

Participants of the Nets Combine:

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Net ... eview-3919

No big names. Anyone people would want from that list as a 2nd rounder?

Names I'm paying attention to include:

Kim English
Tu Holloway
Scott Machado
Darius Johnson-Odom
Renardo Sidney
Jae Crowder
Evan Fournier
Orlando Johnson
Robert Sacre

So I think there is some talent to watch. I'll definitely be the most interested in Crowder, DJ-O and Johnson.

Same list, I'd add J'Covan Brown to it, but most interested in Machado, English, and my main man Robert Sacre (who has clearly been smokin' too much).

http://hoopshype.com/interviews/aderoa/ ... -the-world

[Undefeated]

Keep an eye on Terrell Stoglin. Leading scorer in the ACC. I remember him killing it against UNC.

[Greg Stink]

I'm interested in Fournier for the same reasons as everyone else, he's a 6'7 wing who DX has had going in the 1st-round all year. Machado has to be considered (as he's a PG) but if it's true that he can't go right or defend then I'm out- unless it's a garbage pick. Didn't see enough of him myself.

[Rhettmatic]

SI's article on the draft's safe bets is up and includes Barnes, Lillard, Sullinger, Marshall:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/w ... nba_t13_a0

Not sure if anyone posted it yesterday but they also have an article up on the high-risk, high-reward guys, which includes Andre Drummond, PJ3 and Jeremy Lamb:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/w ... index.html

[niQ]

12 more days til the Draft Lottery.

LET'S GO 3.5% !!!

[Dr Positivity]

I'm interested in Fournier for the same reasons as everyone else, he's a 6'7 wing who DX has had going in the 1st-round all year. Machado has to be considered (as he's a PG) but if it's true that he can't go right or defend then I'm out- unless it's a garbage pick. Didn't see enough of him myself.

Well he'd have to be taken at #37 presuming BC doesn't move up... so yeah, it's a "garbage pick".

I just help but feel that the difference between him and Marshall comes down to people saying "Danger! Bad conference + senior". But isn't it conceivable we could realize quickly "Wait, they actually are the same guy" They're both nearly 10apg points who specialize in fastbreak passing, not much scorers, not much defenders, are similarly athletically. Machado is actually the better rebounder and 3pt/FT line shooter. Machado has the #1 assist per game number in college basketball reference's database going back to 99 (Marshall is 2nd). He has a 3+ Ast/TOV ratio which looking through DX's database, somewhere between 0 and 3 players have every season. Iona had the best offense in the NCAA statistically. If we're to say he got there because of his conference, then why don't other players accomplish those things? I'm not expecting Machado to have more weaknesses than Marshall as a scorer/defender (because Mashall's are already as big as can be), so what it comes down to is whether Marshall is just a step up as a playmaker/court vision talent and Machado is riding the bad conference to his numbers. But what if there's no difference?

He could be a bust, I guess both him and Marshall could bust even if they're the same caliber of prospect, but personally, I'm expecting us to take a 2nd rounder that I'm all but pencilling in as a bust - so to get a guy I would actually feel like "matters" in the scope of next season and developing under Calderon at 37 would excite me a lot IMO

[fredericklove]

But my point stands, name me one primary scoring guard that leads his team to wins who doesn't get to the FT line on a consistent basis.

With regards to Sullinger, he does all the intangibles that it takes to win to go along with his production. And since when are big men who average a double double a dime a dozen? A big that gets you a double double every night, while being a decent scoring option (ie not simply rebound points) and provides leadership is a rare asset not a commodity.

Guards who are streaky scorers and don't consistently get to the line, they are a dime a dozen.

I'm pretty sure I can name one and already have named one, Joe Johnson. He's one primary scoring guard who scores 21.4 ppg (08-09 season), and 21.3 (09-10) while going to the line just 3.5 FTA in those two season 08-10 but in those times where he led the team in scoring, his team winning record were 47 wins in 08-09 and 53 wins in 09-10. Even now he's the primary scorer on the team in last two seasons, while just having 3.1 or 3.4 FTA yet got the team in winning records. So there's one primary scoring guard right here that I can name to you.

Big who avg double double while being decent scoring option are as followed: Howard, Love, Bynum, Cousins, Griffin, Pau Gasol, Monroe, Jefferson, Smith, Randolph and Lee etc. Even guys who are close to avg double double with scoring instincts are guys like Horford, LMA, Josh Smith, Scola, Amare Milsap and the other Gasol.

Yes, leadership is rare from a big, guys who have that are KG and Duncan in the league nowadays, but even for comparison, leadership from a guard is just as rare as leadership from the guard position but like I've listed, there's just so many bigs that can score (non-garbage pts) and rebound at a good 9-10 reb rate but guards that are primary scorers of their team are rare, you're looking at Kobe, Dwade, Ellis(?) and JJ. That's it. Maybe Kevin Martin too.

[neurotik]

But my point stands, name me one primary scoring guard that leads his team to wins who doesn't get to the FT line on a consistent basis.

With regards to Sullinger, he does all the intangibles that it takes to win to go along with his production. And since when are big men who average a double double a dime a dozen? A big that gets you a double double every night, while being a decent scoring option (ie not simply rebound points) and provides leadership is a rare asset not a commodity.

Guards who are streaky scorers and don't consistently get to the line, they are a dime a dozen.

I'm pretty sure I can name one and already have named one, Joe Johnson. He's one primary scoring guard who scores 21.4 ppg (08-09 season), and 21.3 (09-10) while going to the line just 3.5 FTA in those two season 08-10 but in those times where he led the team in scoring, his team winning record were 47 wins in 08-09 and 53 wins in 09-10. Even now he's the primary scorer on the team in last two seasons, while just having 3.1 or 3.4 FTA yet got the team in winning records. So there's one primary scoring guard right here that I can name to you.

Big who avg double double while being decent scoring option are as followed: Howard, Love, Bynum, Cousins, Griffin, Pau Gasol, Monroe, Jefferson, Smith, Randolph and Lee etc. Even guys who are close to avg double double with scoring instincts are guys like Horford, LMA, Josh Smith, Scola, Amare Milsap and the other Gasol.

Yes, leadership is rare from a big, guys who have that are KG and Duncan in the league nowadays, but even for comparison, leadership from a guard is just as rare as leadership from the guard position but like I've listed, there's just so many bigs that can score (non-garbage pts) and rebound at a good 9-10 reb rate but guards that are primary scorers of their team are rare, you're looking at Kobe, Dwade, Ellis(?) and JJ. That's it. Maybe Kevin Martin too.

Joe Johnson, gimme a break. No team with Joe Johnson as their primary scorer will ever win a thing. Placing Joe Johnson as your primary scoring wing is step 1 in building a treadmill team.

Secondly, all bigs you listed above are or once have been all stars. A dime a dozen my ass. You want a big who will give you a double double, it will cost you.

And of all the scoring guards youve listed Kobe and Wade are the only ones that led their teams to a title or at least put their team in serious contention, and they are superstars. Those are rare, but Lamb won't be one. Ellis, JJ, Martin are just overpayed guards that won't win diick as primary scorers. You know why? Because they're second fiddles at best.

In fact you listed two players above (Ellis and Martin), that I pray that Lamb (provided we draft him) doesn't turn out to be anything like. Both are treadmill guards. They score but they don't win. And unfortunately for whatever team they're on because they score they are gonna be overpaid.

Consistent rebounding and solid post scoring wins chips. Sullinger over Lamb any for me any day of the week for me.

[fredericklove]

Joe Johnson, gimme a break. No team with Joe Johnson as their primary scorer will ever win a thing. Placing Joe Johnson as your primary scoring wing is step 1 in building a treadmill team.

Secondly, all bigs you listed above are or once have been all stars. A dime a dozen my ass. You want a big who will give you a double double, it will cost you.

And of all the scoring guards youve listed Kobe and Wade are the only ones that led their teams to a title or at least put their team in serious contention, and they are superstars. Those are rare, but Lamb won't be one. Ellis, JJ, Martin are just overpayed guards that won't win diick as primary scorers. You know why? Because they're second fiddles at best.

In fact you listed two players above (Ellis and Martin), that I pray that Lamb (provided we draft him) doesn't turn out to be anything like. Both are treadmill guards. They score but they don't win. And unfortunately for whatever team they're on because they score they are gonna be overpaid.

Consistent rebounding and solid post scoring wins chips. Sullinger over Lamb any for me any day of the week for me.

Do you even know where you going at? you personally ask me to name a primary scorer of the team that doesn't get to the line often, but still gets his teams "wins", so JJ is a primary guy who doesn't get to the foul line often (check), primary scorer of his team (check) and he still gets his team to win games (check). After listing it to you, and now you derail it by saying "treadmill" topic, lol.

And then you argued big men who avg double double that have scoring instincts are not dime a dozen, and I proved it to you by listing them, tons of them, and now you've got told, and suddenly say a non-related issue about how they were once all star, so? And huh, so a double-double big men scoring option that are/were all star should not be part of the "big men are dime a dozen" list. Do u make any sense so far in the argument? Its almost like you're keep going at it and at it, try to find other unrelated factor to pray that what I said was wrong?

[neurotik]

Joe Johnson, gimme a break. No team with Joe Johnson as their primary scorer will ever win a thing. Placing Joe Johnson as your primary scoring wing is step 1 in building a treadmill team.

Secondly, all bigs you listed above are or once have been all stars. A dime a dozen my ass. You want a big who will give you a double double, it will cost you.

And of all the scoring guards youve listed Kobe and Wade are the only ones that led their teams to a title or at least put their team in serious contention, and they are superstars. Those are rare, but Lamb won't be one. Ellis, JJ, Martin are just overpayed guards that won't win diick as primary scorers. You know why? Because they're second fiddles at best.

In fact you listed two players above (Ellis and Martin), that I pray that Lamb (provided we draft him) doesn't turn out to be anything like. Both are treadmill guards. They score but they don't win. And unfortunately for whatever team they're on because they score they are gonna be overpaid.

Consistent rebounding and solid post scoring wins chips. Sullinger over Lamb any for me any day of the week for me.

Do you even know where you going at? you personally ask me to name a primary scorer of the team that doesn't get to the line often, but still gets his teams "wins", so JJ is a primary guy who doesn't get to the foul line often (check), primary scorer of his team (check) and he still gets his team to win games (check). After listing it to you, and now you derail it by saying "treadmill" topic, lol.

And then you argued big men who avg double double that have scoring instincts are not dime a dozen, and I proved it to you by listing them, tons of them, and now you've got told, and suddenly say a non-related issue about how they were once all star, so? And huh, so a double-double big men scoring option that are/were all star should not be part of the "big men are dime a dozen" list. Do u make any sense so far in the argument? Its almost like you're keep going at it and at it, try to find other unrelated factor to pray that what I said was wrong?

I'm not derailing anything. When asked for a winning team, I meant a team that has a chance to compete for a championship. You're right though, I should have been more specific.

But your one example doesn't hold much water since Joe Johnson hasn't done anything for Atlanta except tie up their cashflow. I can't think of any guards that don't get to the line that win championships or seriously contend for them. Can you?

Regarding the big men are a dime a dozen topic, my point is that they're not. Dime a dozen is a term that implies that something or someone is a cheap commodity. None of the players you listed are cheap. They are assets to teams and that is why the command money.



With regards to