PG System and Usage Angst again

[YogurtProducer]

Question for you, Yogurt. What do you feel we need to see change overall with our offense?
Something is clearly not working that well and you've been clear that Pascal has been a positive for this team, which I do agree. I'm still of the opinion that both cannot co-exist on the court simultaneously given our current "system" we're running and I believe Scottie is also at his best when the ball is in his hands. Add in OG who also seems to be trending into more of a ball dominant playstyle and there's clearly not enough touches going around.
It's a puzzle that's going to take a full season to solve and I'm curious if Masai has the patience to let the season play out before making and drastic moves.

In all honesty? Make a trade lol that’s the only way we solve our offence short term.

People here need to understand it’s a talent issue, not a system issue or a rotation issue - a TALENT issue.

And that’s not a knock on Masai - we are super super young with a lot of intriguing pieces that are going to grow. But those young pieces have massive holes and thats just the way it’s going to be

[BryceMaxJames]

Poole and Wiggins pushed the Raps wig back.

I have both on my fantasy team

[BryceMaxJames]

If we are gonna lose then at least get something out of it, we have to trade Pascal and FVV and let the young boys get their playtime and touches. It's so hard to watch FVV play hero ball, he's not Kyle, and Pascal, where do I start.

[YogurtProducer]

If we are gonna lose then at least get something out of it, we have to trade Pascal and FVV and let the young boys get their playtime and touches. It's so hard to watch FVV play hero ball, he's not Kyle, and Pascal, where do I start.

So who are we trading them for? You guys have these crazy plans to be Philly 76ers level bad without the assets without thinking out the consequences.

Siakam was our best player yesterday also so like, the ****? Coincidentally, Barnes was our worst (edit: I take that back, GTJ was bad). But somehow we make this FVV/Siakams fault.

[NBA Sheady]

When does Nicky speed up Senior playing off the ball with the rock in Scottie's hands more often?

Honestly probably not for another season or two. Barnes is gassed af with his current role.

[NBA Sheady]

I'm a FVV hater, but you have to give him some credit for keeping Steph Curry at 12 points in 37 mins. Who else in the NBA can do this to Steph, especially this year where he's averaging 30

Plays incredible D all night VS whoever he's guarding and is 12th in assists in the NBA. Once Scottie can handle more playmaking the stars will align and FVV's shortcomings will be minimized/hidden.

[EFF3KT]

Question for you, Yogurt. What do you feel we need to see change overall with our offense?
Something is clearly not working that well and you've been clear that Pascal has been a positive for this team, which I do agree. I'm still of the opinion that both cannot co-exist on the court simultaneously given our current "system" we're running and I believe Scottie is also at his best when the ball is in his hands. Add in OG who also seems to be trending into more of a ball dominant playstyle and there's clearly not enough touches going around.
It's a puzzle that's going to take a full season to solve and I'm curious if Masai has the patience to let the season play out before making and drastic moves.

In all honesty? Make a trade lol that’s the only way we solve our offence short term.

People here need to understand it’s a talent issue, not a system issue or a rotation issue - a TALENT issue.

And that’s not a knock on Masai - we are super super young with a lot of intriguing pieces that are going to grow. But those young pieces have massive holes and thats just the way it’s going to be

I'm with you there regarding having a talent issue. We can't magically swap FVV for Lowry and expect the same results. I believe that's the core of the issue as we've been accustomed to a Lowry driven offense for the last 7 years.
FVV and Lowry are just different players. But I guess this is where I have to say that considering this, wouldn't you think that NN would look to adjust based off his current cast?
Even via trades, finding the right pieces will still require those new acquisitions to learn the system. With our vets here who know our system inside out, it sounds almost counter productive to trade that talent that already is knee deep within our system. I guess this is why I have trouble being convinced that the system is fine as currently constructed.

[Son Goku 25]

Mentioned it before but this team isn't smart enough yet to play his style of defense and the heavy mins aren't helping. Fortunately for us we have a coach that has a history for proving why he's likely thr best in the game so I'm gonna trust him.

[Dennis 37]

To be fair to Nurse, I'd roll the dice on Poole and Wiggins shooting 3s over Steph any day.
Wiggins 32.5% and Poole 29%.

But like mentioned above, we need to do a better job contesting. How many times I saw an open 3 with no one bothering to contest was frustrating to watch.

The missed communication is hard to watch; two Raptors going after the same player on the perimeter while leaving another wide open. We are simply not used to the quantity of mistakes happening on defense.

[EFF3KT]

When does Nicky speed up Senior playing off the ball with the rock in Scottie's hands more often?

Honestly probably not for another season or two. Barnes is gassed af with his current role.

I feel by all star break if we're basically out of contention for even a play in, you could see NN try Scottie out more at the pointforward spot.
I don't see us magically "clicking" if we don't get any hint of it by all star break.

[johanliebert]

Warriors' fan here:

Barnes is impressive. He moves well on D and he looks good on-ball. I spent most of 2013-2019 watching more of Milwaukee than Golden State because I was living on the east coast and had college/jobs to attend to that made PST games difficult to catch and I thought I might share this observation:

Giannis was very obviously the Bucks' most intriguing long-term option as the lead-ball handler in his rookie year. I spent lots of time on the Bucks' board in those days and we all complained at length about Brandon Knight monopolizing possessions as the lead ball-handler while Giannis was stuck in the corner.

A few years back, Larry Drew was quoted (and I am paraphrasing here) as saying that he wanted Giannis to eventually be the lead ball-handler, but he couldn't just give Giannis the keys to the offense at the age of 18 as the #15 pick.

I suspect there's something similar going on here with Barnes and FVV. Barnes probably needs to take the PG role by force and do so in a way that is so commanding that none of the vets can be pissed about it. Not sure what it will take from Barnes or Nurse to make that happen, but I hope it does. Barnes will be a hell of a player down the road.

Moved well on defence and looked good on ball? I have to question what game you watched.

[Son Goku 25]

I may have missed it but has Curry ever come out and gave respect to Vanvleet or is he waiting to do thst after he retires? Lol the man had him locked up its insane I xont think any other player defends Curry as good as FVV and this isn't anything new.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Mentioned it before but this team isn't smart enough yet to play his style of defense and the heavy mins aren't helping. Fortunately for us we have a coach that has a history for proving why he's likely thr best in the game so I'm gonna trust him.

Nurse basically said the same thing last night after the game. We're frequently seeing two players run at one shooter, or hard closeouts on non-shooters. Nurse has everyone playing like Boucher. It's not working all that well against the best offenses in the league, and we've played 3 of the top 5 on this road trip.

Having said that, I think Scottie was picked on last night repeatedly in the first half, and it wasn't his IQ, he just had nothing in his legs and was slow to react. We've seen Pascal have a game like that in Utah, and OG has had several of them already this year. To play this style of defense, it's going to be brutal on the legs. Some of our higher minutes guys are just going to have nothing on occasion. Nurse's response last night was that Scottie is going to play a lot of minutes, so he'd better get used to it.

This is a system built for the playoffs, when Steph wins games on himself and the Jordan Poole and Andrew Wiggins-types collapse under the weight of pressure. And Golden State's offense is 100% Steph at the moment. Last night 127 ORating ON, 100 ORating OFF. If Klay isn't exceptional when he comes back this team won't make it to the 3rd round, and other teams will do what we did.

[Rapsfan07]

Honestly, it's the Warriors. We had no chance of winning so I'm not even mad at this loss.

But a few takeaways:

1. Defense looked horrible tonight. We made Wiggins and Poole look like Curry and Thompson out there.

2. Scottie - not sure what's going on with him. Was not good on the defensive end and looks so unsure of himself with the ball. Made a couple of good shots but passed up on open layups, missed a few really good looks at the rim. We all knew he was going to be a project on the offensive end but if he's not even going to be reliable on D...there's only so much blaming others that we can do.

3. FVV understood the assignment and took Curry completely out of the game. At times I forgot Curry was even playing. But was horrible offensively. He pounds the ball a LOT and often insists on taking difficult shots.

4. Pascal - see Scottie

5. Banton was really impressive. If that jumper ever gets consistent, look out.

This team DESPERATELY need a shot creator or an offensive scheme that can create easy buckets. Way too much one on one and ending possessions in bad shots.

I would really like to see Nurse send Trent to the bench. As I've said before, Trents game is much better suited to the bench. He reminds me a lot of Nick Young - great shooter and microwave scorer but when he's not scoring, he really isn't doing much else.

If Trent goes to the bench, we can run: FVV/Barnes/OG/Siakam/Birch. Have Scottie handle the PG duties.

Bench:
Banton/Trent/Svi/Boucher/Precious

The problem with Trent is he has the norm “I gotta start or I suck balls” syndrome so if he goes to the bench he might as well be a dnp-cd

Then he should be on the block as well. We don't need to shop him but we could listen to potential offers and see if we're able to move forward.

[bape_lovers]

not sure why people are mad here, Warriors are top team in league, they cook Brooklyn as well. We had no OG whom our best defender, we made it close to 10 until the Warriors shot godly. nothing much you can do

[Dennis 37]

I may have missed it but has Curry ever come out and gave respect to Vanvleet or is he waiting to do thst after he retires? Lol the man had him locked up its insane I xont think any other player defends Curry as good as FVV and this isn't anything new.

Right at the beginning of the game when Fred blocked Curry's shot and it went out of bounds, the frustration in Curry's face was the respect. If he thought it was a lucky or rare occurrence, he would have smiled it off.

[JShuttlesworth]

We lost our best player Kyle

Tampa and stuff.

I think the record is what it is because of the injuries and the long road trip. I say the same thing after seeing Brooklyn beat Toronto, or any other quality team. Let's see how this goes when we have OG, Yuta and we have a bit of time to gel. Right now the Raps are in a tough spot but they are competing. We beat GSW by 40 the last time we played and they only won by 15? I thought they were going to blow Toronto out so this was a bit surprising.

Watching Jordan Poole be this good is important to take note. He was a scorer in college and when he came to Warriors it took him almost three years to get this good. Toronto could do this with David Johnson if they stay the course developing him. Not sure abut Flynn because he is so small, but Johnson and Harris could easily be great 2 way guards in the league. Scottie will also get better in time.

Right now the Warriors are playing great, but I don't expect it to continue. Curry is 33 and this season and pace will catch up to him. They are just having a really nice stretch but this doesn't have enough to grind it out with other teams.

Well, we're going to find out in December. We have a home heavy schedule for all of December up until about January 14th (after that it's very road heavy until March 21). We haven't played well at home, and if we don't figure it out in December we're going to be lotto bound.

[Ref_from_hell]

It's time to accept that the Raptors are a lottery team....

4-9 against above .500 teams
4-1 against sub .500 teams

LOL, that doesn't make you a lotto team. Especially if you're taking care of business against the bad teams. If anything, that would make you a playoff contender but a fraud playoff contender. A lottery team would not only need to be bad against the good teams but also bad against the bad teams. Like a Houston or Detroit.

Come on Sfour, you know better than that

[BD006]

8

Seems like a broken record really but 20 more FG attempts than the Warriors and still lose by 15.

Something to be said for efficiency and ball movement...

I mean 19 threes made combined from Wiggins, Poole and Porter. We could leave these guys totally uncontested and they aren't doing that again this season.

Err, the Jazz did something similar to us a few nights ago... giving too much credit to the other team

[pingpongrac]

If we are gonna lose then at least get something out of it, we have to trade Pascal and FVV and let the young boys get their playtime and touches. It's so hard to watch FVV play hero ball, he's not Kyle, and Pascal, where do I start.

So who are we trading them for? You guys have these crazy plans to be Philly 76ers level bad without the assets without thinking out the consequences.

Siakam was our best player yesterday also so like, the ****? Coincidentally, Barnes was our worst (edit: I take that back, GTJ was bad). But somehow we make this FVV/Siakams fault.

The Siakam/FVV hate is mostly irrational. Regardless of how they play, the same group of posters attacks their game. When FVV put up 32/6/7 on 67 TS% with 1 TOV against the Sixers, there were complaints about how he was high-jacking the offence and when he put up 16/6/17 against the Bulls (though he had 8 TOV), the issue again was that he was chucking and not creating enough offence for the team. When Siakam put up 25/12/7 on 70 TS% with 2 TOV against the Pistons in a loss and 32/8/1 on 98 TS% with 4 TOV against the Kings, it was a lot of "but he can't do it against good teams and he doesn't make the team better." He had good games against the Blazers (20/6/6 on 60 TS% with 2 TOV) and Warriors (21/6/2 on 55 TS% with 1 TOV), but the haters picked other aspects of his game and focused more on his stinker against the Jazz.

Last night FVV was pretty awful on the offensive end for the first ~30 minutes, but he caught fire a bit late and his defence on Steph was incredible. Similarly, Siakam started pretty poorly but wound up having a solid game on both ends of the floor. Outside of the activity of Achiuwa/Boucher, we had really nothing going all game. FVV and Siakam were still 2 of our top 3 players last night lol.

And some posters wonder why we are defending these players. It has less to do with being "fanboys" and a heck of lot more to do with finding the truth. It is becoming unbearable reading all of these "trashfleet" and "Siakam sucks" posts. Without FVV and Siakam, this team would be absolutely brutal.

This is a development year, but you don't develop players by giving them freedom to do whatever they want and without guidance from veterans. There is a reason why teams like San Antonio, Miami, Toronto, Denver and Golden State have been considered the top teams at developing talent in the past ~10 years while teams like Sacramento, Orlando, Detroit and Minnesota have been near the bottom when it comes to developing their youth...and it has nothing to do with where the picks are being made.

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