Is Fred a true point guard?

[ontnut]

If you're asking if he's like Steve Nash, or Stockton, or even a guy like Calderon then no, he doesn't fall into that category. He's not a pass-first guard, if that's your definition of a "true point guard".
He's a combo guard that has the ability to take on some PG duties, we've known that for years. Besides, how many "true point guards" are there in the league? Espeically ones that you'd rather have than Fred?

[mdenny]

If you're asking if he's like Steve Nash, or Stockton, or even a guy like Calderon then no, he doesn't fall into that category. He's not a pass-first guard, if that's your definition of a "true point guard".
He's a combo guard that has the ability to take on some PG duties, we've known that for years. Besides, how many "true point guards" are there in the league? Espeically ones that you'd rather have than Fred?

And ones making his salary (ie not a max).

[LBJKB24MJ23]

https://go.nba.com/dbx7

Fred is 12th in the league in potential assists per game at 13.2

So only 11 players in the league generate more shots for their teammates per game that could be assists than Fred.

And here I thought Fred was the most selfish point guard in the league who only cares about getting his own and purposefully ignores our budding rookie superstar

side note/disclaimer: he also plays the most minutes of those players above him, by a far amount. if you prorate that to a potential assist per minute, its not that impressive.

also if you do potential assist to pass ratio, its also not that impressive.

[mdenny]

True point guards dont do anything in this league anymore so im glad hes not one.

But the new style of explosive quick scoring PG's like Trae, Mitchell, Morant, Murray, etc., he's not one of those either.

He can guard them, which is awesome, but can't do what they do on offense.

Physically, he is more suited to being a "true" point guard type player. But he doesn't have that mindset or playmaking skillset

He's not a max salary player. If that's the level of performance u are expecting than ur expectations are the problem. We could also say "why isnt OG as good as lebron or kawhi? He can defend them but can't score like them."

A useful exercise would be to name 3 PGs in the league on a similar contract you'd rather have and why.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

True point guards dont do anything in this league anymore so im glad hes not one.

But the new style of explosive quick scoring PG's like Trae, Mitchell, Morant, Murray, etc., he's not one of those either.

He can guard them, which is awesome, but can't do what they do on offense.

Physically, he is more suited to being a "true" point guard type player. But he doesn't have that mindset or playmaking skillset

He's not a max salary player. If that's the level of performance u are expecting than ur expectations are the problem. We could also say "why isnt OG as good as lebron or kawhi? He can defend them but can't score like them."

A useful exercise would be to name 3 PGs in the league on a similar contract you'd rather have and why.

yup, exactly. at $21M per year, pretty hard to beat in terms of value vs expectations.

[Gold Dragon]

https://go.nba.com/dbx7

Fred is 12th in the league in potential assists per game at 13.2

So only 11 players in the league generate more shots for their teammates per game that could be assists than Fred.

And here I thought Fred was the most selfish point guard in the league who only cares about getting his own and purposefully ignores our budding rookie superstar

side note/disclaimer: he also plays the most minutes of those players above him, by a far amount. if you prorate that to a potential assist per minute, its not that impressive.

also if you do potential assist to pass ratio, its also not that impressive.

True. But nobody on this forum is trying to make the argument that Fred is one of the best “pure PGs” in the league, just that he is one. While half this forum is arguing that he isn’t a PG, is selfish, only looking for his own shot. What does this stat, even prorated to his minutes tell us?

Now imagine those same potential assists at the same rate with the shooting percentages that the other PGs on this list ahead of him pass to on average.

[VC15Era]

Just hand the keys to Barnes... and let FVV play off ball... start Yuta until OG comes back.. and have Pascal and Birch/Precious start at centre... please keep Svl and Gary on the bench..

Are you the same person who said he hoped Gary Trent was injured? And that we should send Fred away from the team and let dragic be the starting point guard?

I clarified me wanting Gary injured.. just want him to play where he will be most effective. Never said I wanted Dragic be the starting point guard.. thats insane... but trading Fred sooner then later yes that needs to happen unless he can play off the ball like he did with Lowry. again he's not a true point guard.

[Mr_NC]

He's an SG but in a PG body

[LBJKB24MJ23]

And here I thought Fred was the most selfish point guard in the league who only cares about getting his own and purposefully ignores our budding rookie superstar

side note/disclaimer: he also plays the most minutes of those players above him, by a far amount. if you prorate that to a potential assist per minute, its not that impressive.

also if you do potential assist to pass ratio, its also not that impressive.

True. But nobody on this forum is trying to make the argument that Fred is one of the best “pure PGs” in the league, just that he is one. While half this forum is arguing that he isn’t a PG, is selfish, only looking for his own shot. What does this stat, even prorated to his minutes tell us?

Now imagine those same potential assists at the same rate with the shooting percentages that the other PGs on this list ahead of him pass to on average.

just putting a disclaimer and taking into account other factors that play into him having these counting stats. The overview of this stat makes him look like a great passer when in fact, based on the time played, is not really that impressive, esp when he is the lead guard on this team. the players ahead of him are still actually leaders in the stat overview AND effective when they are on the court when it comes to finding teammates.

[Gold Dragon]

side note/disclaimer: he also plays the most minutes of those players above him, by a far amount. if you prorate that to a potential assist per minute, its not that impressive.

also if you do potential assist to pass ratio, its also not that impressive.

True. But nobody on this forum is trying to make the argument that Fred is one of the best “pure PGs” in the league, just that he is one. While half this forum is arguing that he isn’t a PG, is selfish, only looking for his own shot. What does this stat, even prorated to his minutes tell us?

Now imagine those same potential assists at the same rate with the shooting percentages that the other PGs on this list ahead of him pass to on average.

just putting a disclaimer and taking into account other factors that play into him having these counting stats. The overview of this stat makes him look like a great passer when in fact, based on the time played, is not really that impressive, esp when he is the lead guard on this team. the players ahead of him are still actually leaders in the stat overview AND effective when they are on the court when it comes to finding teammates.

Fred has no problem finding teammates who then put up a shot as this stat tells us. Sure he is not top 12 at that if you prorate by minutes, but he is still up there, likely in the top 20 somewhere (I haven’t done the actual calculation but his minutes is only around 3-6 more per game than most guys in the list).

What he has trouble with is finding teammates who put up shots that turn into points. Whether that is Fred’s fault because of the position he puts his shooters in or the shooters’ fault for not making the shot is not clear from this stat. But anyone taking an honest look at this roster should be able to answer the bit about the quality of shooters he is passing to.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

True. But nobody on this forum is trying to make the argument that Fred is one of the best “pure PGs” in the league, just that he is one. While half this forum is arguing that he isn’t a PG, is selfish, only looking for his own shot. What does this stat, even prorated to his minutes tell us?

Now imagine those same potential assists at the same rate with the shooting percentages that the other PGs on this list ahead of him pass to on average.

just putting a disclaimer and taking into account other factors that play into him having these counting stats. The overview of this stat makes him look like a great passer when in fact, based on the time played, is not really that impressive, esp when he is the lead guard on this team. the players ahead of him are still actually leaders in the stat overview AND effective when they are on the court when it comes to finding teammates.

Fred has no problem finding teammates who then put up a shot as this stat tells us. Sure he is not top 12 at that if you prorate by minutes, but he is still up there, likely in the top 20 somewhere (I haven’t done the actual calculation but his minutes is only around 3-6 more per game than most guys in the list).

What he has trouble with is finding teammates who put up shots that turn into points. Whether that is Fred’s fault because of the position he puts his shooters in or the shooters’ fault for not making the shot is not clear from this stat. But anyone taking an honest look at this roster should be able to answer the bit about the quality of shooters he is passing to.

i'm just waiting for a healthy team tbh. its hard to gauge anything right now. but it seems that FVV can't be the one to put up good/best stats and expect the Raptors to win. Just like Siakam. its like the princess waiting for her prince charming. thats where we are right now.

[jacinto]

He's not a point guard and he's too small and weak to be a 2. He's also no leader in any way. What's his strength, shooting open shots.

He's just lucky to be playing with the Raps otherwise on most other teams he may not even make the lineup each night.

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[Ref_from_hell]

He's not a point guard and he's too small and weak to be a 2. He's also no leader in any way. What's his strength, shooting open shots.

He's just lucky to be playing with the Raps otherwise on most other teams he may not even make the lineup each night.

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[YogurtProducer]

He's not a point guard and he's too small and weak to be a 2. He's also no leader in any way. What's his strength, shooting open shots.

He's just lucky to be playing with the Raps otherwise on most other teams he may not even make the lineup each night.

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I honest to god can’t believe I’ve become a FVV defender, I thought I was one of the most critical in years past but this year he’s pretty much shut me up, and somehow the hate for him has grown.

His efficiency is passable, he doesn’t turn the ball over (an entirely underrated part of basketball tbh), he’s one of the best guard defenders in the NBA, he has an amazing stroke, his mid range game has expanded…

Yet here we are castrating him because he’s a 3rd option guy being forced to be a 1b right now.

[WaltFrazier]

Fred isn't a true point guard, that's not his skillset. And it's unrealistic to expect him to be. He's quite good at what he does. Solid spot up shooter, he's getting to his spots well, and I think the eye test shows he's running pnr better.

The team has a gravity issue. The offense only looks good when shots are falling. Quality shot generation is as streaky as the shooters. I'm not sure what they're trying to generate most of the time. Which is likely because no one is really adept at drawing help, making the right read, and exploiting tendencies. Barnes flashes the potential but his north-south game isn't there yet.

It's unfair to pin the struggles on Fred. His flaws as a pg blind us to his merits at times. And I can't help but wonder what he'd look like with better spacing, cutting, and a safe lob target. There is too much redundancy in playstyle. Maybe we should be thinking about the type of players that complement him because he's rock steady.

Good post. For sure Fred would play better with a better cast around him. Even if we were all healthy at the same time.

But all we know for sure is he was a very good role player on a championship team and 2020 too, playing with a great point guard in Kyle. It seems like he is not the guy to be the only point guard on a young team, and bring everybody along. And, I'm not sure if he could be the main point guard on a really good playoff team, where he was the guy. Would he start one one of the top 6-8 teams? I see him more as a very good bench guy on a really good team.

Not the main PG in a traditional sense but he's your point of attack defender, secondary creator, and spot up shooter–your traditional SG on offense. You can slot Fred anywhere where you have big wings/guards as your primary creators. He'd look good on Brooklyn, Milwaukee, and possibly even Boston and Philly(with Simmons). I like him on Dallas too.

Basically I don't he's the guy that should be in charge of your offense but will excel next to the right guys.

I agree he'd help all those teams, the way he helped our 2019 and 2020 great teams. Not sure if he'd start for any of them, but very valuable off the bench

[WaltFrazier]

True point guards dont do anything in this league anymore so im glad hes not one.

But the new style of explosive quick scoring PG's like Trae, Mitchell, Morant, Murray, etc., he's not one of those either.

He can guard them, which is awesome, but can't do what they do on offense.

Physically, he is more suited to being a "true" point guard type player. But he doesn't have that mindset or playmaking skillset

He's not a max salary player. If that's the level of performance u are expecting than ur expectations are the problem. We could also say "why isnt OG as good as lebron or kawhi? He can defend them but can't score like them."

A useful exercise would be to name 3 PGs in the league on a similar contract you'd rather have and why.

yeah that's fair. You made me think. And do research:

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/contracts/point-guard/

From #16 (FVV and Bledsoe) at $21 mil down to #25 (Dinwiddie and Rozier) at 18 mil. I'd take Lonzo Ball, especially if he could play with Fred as the 2. Brogdon maybe. Rozier or Dinwiddie maybe, maybe not. It would depend on if you were swapping out Fred for the other guy, or adding the guy so Fred could play the SG.

And I'd take Lamelo on his $8 mil rookie contract of course. A passer like Scottie, a real PG.

But your point is a good one, and well taken.

It all points out that we could use either a good young PG to back up Fred, and bigger and better than Flynn. Or else a much better starting PG who could pair with Fred, like Kyle did.

[Reeko]

We can debate whether or not he's a point guard, but what shouldn't be up for debate is if he is the problem on this team. He is not. There are 3 guys that are on contracts that are close to Fred's, that are around his level as a player. Malcolm Brogdon, Lonzo Ball, and Marcus Smart. They've all got their flaws, and I don't think you can definitively say that any one of them is better than Fred.

We can debate his current role, but he is without a doubt a very valuable piece as a 3rd or 4th scoring option.

[GreatWhiteStiff]

He's not a point guard and he's too small and weak to be a 2. He's also no leader in any way. What's his strength, shooting open shots.

He's just lucky to be playing with the Raps otherwise on most other teams he may not even make the lineup each night.

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I honest to god can’t believe I’ve become a FVV defender, I thought I was one of the most critical in years past but this year he’s pretty much shut me up, and somehow the hate for him has grown.

His efficiency is passable, he doesn’t turn the ball over (an entirely underrated part of basketball tbh), he’s one of the best guard defenders in the NBA, he has an amazing stroke, his mid range game has expanded…

Yet here we are castrating him because he’s a 3rd option guy being forced to be a 1b right now.

I believe he's definitely suffering from "Mike James Syndrome" right now. It's like the better he plays, and the worse his teammates perform, the more blame is appropriated to FVV (or James). I'd say James was much more a score first guy than FVV though.

[DelAbbot]

There was a moment last night when we had been on a little run, Barnes playing well, the ball was moving. Then we got a defensive rebound, Fred started walking it up, and it was like the air went out of the offense. I've seen it so often, suddenly he starts to bring it up slowly, as if to say ok we're going to get a really good shot now. But it usually ends up in him dribbling the clock down and we force a shot. I can't recall the exact part of the game last night but second half and not at the end of a quarter. Kyle used to force the pace, Fred tends to slow it down to much.

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[vulture]

We can debate whether or not he's a point guard, but what shouldn't be up for debate is if he is the problem on this team. He is not. There are 3 guys that are on contracts that are close to Fred's, that are around his level as a player. Malcolm Brogdon, Lonzo Ball, and Marcus Smart. They've all got their flaws, and I don't think you can definitively say that any one of them is better than Fred.

We can debate his current role, but he is without a doubt a very valuable piece as a 3rd or 4th scoring option.

I don't understand how people can watch the team and say Fred is the problem. This team sucks without him and Memphis played box and one on him and allowed all these guys to shoot last game. Guess what? they fell down 11 in the first half.

We're asking him to be a 1st and 2nd option that is completely unfair to him, but he's thriving despite the team having no spacing whatsoever.