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Official Scottie Barnes Thread 3

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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread 3 

Post#181 » by Madhouse » Sat Apr 9, 2022 5:18 pm

Basketball_Jones wrote:Mobleys great but I don’t understand how he’s ROY when he’s essentially a finisher and not a creator. Now his team has a worse record. To me it’s a thin argument for him, I don’t understand it.


The biggest thing for me is still that Barnes is scoring at least as many points unassisted as assisted. Like superstars and future superstars do.

With Mobley the entire advanced stats have been the holy grail and the reason for those people voting him for ROY. Regardless that those are pretty much even at this point, just not a fan of this because there goes so much into this and it's completely ignoring different tasks and roles. If you an easier role, your advanced numbers will be better. I like Mobley and I don't think it would be flat out undeserving (even though Barnes should win) but this whole argument was always too simplistic and stupid.
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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread 3 

Post#182 » by Madhouse » Sat Apr 9, 2022 6:17 pm

Vampirate wrote:
OakleyDokely wrote:
HumbleRen wrote:
Having a jump shot opens up his first step so you're probably right.


Right now, defenders are playing off on Barnes, giving him the jump shot. If Barnes develops that midrange game like Kawhi did, it's scary to think what he could become because he's already pretty elite around the rim.


Here's an odd stat for you

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From 10 feet to the 3 point line, Barnes is shooting 20.4% of his total shots and is getting it in at about a 39.05% clip.

At the 3 point line Barnes is shooting 20.6% of his shots at a 29.8% clip.

Barnes efficiency from inside the 3 point line and outside the 3 point line is drastic, he basically shoots 10% better once he's inside the three point line, even for stuff like long 2 point shots.

For some reason if Barnes takes a step inside the 3 point line he straight up becomes a better shooter this year.


Everything there makes sense except the difference between long 2 and 3s.

On the other hand you could say if his percentages are good from anywhere inside the line, he should have an easy time improving from long range.



Not as big a difference to Paul George's rookie season though shooting 48% on long 2s and 30% from 3. He later settled in as a 38% career 3pt shooter.


Rookie Chris Paul was shooting 44% on long 2s and only 28% on 3s. So these things tend to catch up.

Rookie Kevin Durant was shooting 42% on long 2s and 29% on 3s.

But I think the sample size plays a big role here. Barnes takes only about 40% the attempts on long 2s that he took on 3s.

So I think this is a bit flukey. If you let him shoot more long 2s, his efficiency might go down to 34-35% from there and then it would be perfectly balanced.


What you notice though is that Barnes is not comfortable with any 3 pointer.

He can still miss badly in the mid range but when he isn't rushed from mid range he can dribble with the ball, then pull up and knock it down. So it's just a matter of doing the same from 3 and expanding the range.


There are a lot of things to like with his shooting splits.

70/50 from short distance is elite
40/38 from midrange is competent
30 from 3 is bad but that's the only main glaring weakness


And as pointed out above, if there is a significant difference between long 2s and 3s it usually evens out as soon as next year.

Say he is a 70/50/40/40/35 shooter next season with increased volume from 3, you are looking at 58-60% TS and a well above average shooter. And that is a reasonable if not likely expectation.


We know his long range shot is being developed like Siakam who shot 33/22 from long 2s and 3s in year 2 and then improved to 44/37 in year 3.

If everything works out perfectly for Scottie, he might even become a 75/50/45/45/37 and 62-65% TS scorer next season but that's an incredibly lofty expectation.


But a slightly increased mid range % on higher volume and 35% from 3 on higher volume is very realistic to me.


The thing you worry about usually are holes in scoring. It's usually not gradually getting worse further away from the basket because a lot of players suck from the 3-10 range which limits their ceiling. That's the biggest advantage Scottie has.

Example Jalen Green. Will be an elite shooter but has zero touch in the paint when he can't dunk.
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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread 3 

Post#183 » by Vampirate » Sat Apr 9, 2022 7:05 pm

Madhouse wrote:
Vampirate wrote:
OakleyDokely wrote:
Right now, defenders are playing off on Barnes, giving him the jump shot. If Barnes develops that midrange game like Kawhi did, it's scary to think what he could become because he's already pretty elite around the rim.


Here's an odd stat for you

Image

From 10 feet to the 3 point line, Barnes is shooting 20.4% of his total shots and is getting it in at about a 39.05% clip.

At the 3 point line Barnes is shooting 20.6% of his shots at a 29.8% clip.

Barnes efficiency from inside the 3 point line and outside the 3 point line is drastic, he basically shoots 10% better once he's inside the three point line, even for stuff like long 2 point shots.

For some reason if Barnes takes a step inside the 3 point line he straight up becomes a better shooter this year.


Everything there makes sense except the difference between long 2 and 3s.

On the other hand you could say if his percentages are good from anywhere inside the line, he should have an easy time improving from long range.



Not as big a difference to Paul George's rookie season though shooting 48% on long 2s and 30% from 3. He later settled in as a 38% career 3pt shooter.


Rookie Chris Paul was shooting 44% on long 2s and only 28% on 3s. So these things tend to catch up.

Rookie Kevin Durant was shooting 42% on long 2s and 29% on 3s.

But I think the sample size plays a big role here. Barnes takes only about 40% the attempts on long 2s that he took on 3s.

So I think this is a bit flukey. If you let him shoot more long 2s, his efficiency might go down to 34-35% from there and then it would be perfectly balanced.


What you notice though is that Barnes is not comfortable with any 3 pointer.

He can still miss badly in the mid range but when he isn't rushed from mid range he can dribble with the ball, then pull up and knock it down. So it's just a matter of doing the same from 3 and expanding the range.


There are a lot of things to like with his shooting splits.

70/50 from short distance is elite
40/38 from midrange is competent
30 from 3 is bad but that's the only main glaring weakness


And as pointed out above, if there is a significant difference between long 2s and 3s it usually evens out as soon as next year.

Say he is a 70/50/40/40/35 shooter next season with increased volume from 3, you are looking at 58-60% TS and a well above average shooter. And that is a reasonable if not likely expectation.


We know his long range shot is being developed like Siakam who shot 33/22 from long 2s and 3s in year 2 and then improved to 44/37 in year 3.

If everything works out perfectly for Scottie, he might even become a 75/50/45/45/37 and 62-65% TS scorer next season but that's an incredibly lofty expectation.


But a slightly increased mid range % on higher volume and 35% from 3 on higher volume is very realistic to me.


The thing you worry about usually are holes in scoring. It's usually not gradually getting worse further away from the basket because a lot of players suck from the 3-10 range which limits their ceiling. That's the biggest advantage Scottie has.

Example Jalen Green. Will be an elite shooter but has zero touch in the paint when he can't dunk.


I think Green's ceiling is probably a lesser version of Ja Morant tbh.

Both guys are 6"3 or 6"4 who can just out of the gym, Ja is better mainly because his value is not just tied to his scoring, but playmaking as well.

With Green, scoring wise, if his 3 point shot is on he's capable of going off for 40+ in the future, maybe a lot, I just question if he'll provide much else value that's noticeably at an exceptional level.

I think he has the potential to get to Lilard's level because of the 3 and like Damian has the ability to get it off. However without any other notable contributions, that's probably where his ceiling is imo.

Mobley has the highest theoretical potential in the draft, but has the longest road to get there.

Cade imo is the mid range artist in the draft. He's a good FT shooter and his 3P shooting numbers in college indicate he has some range. He's probably going to be average to good everywhere else.


Barnes potential is basically a more athletic, taller, stronger version of Cade with a bigger wingspan and larger hands. Barnes is basically the closest thing to Kawhi physically in this draft.


Kuminga is probably a 6"7 Lebron physically and athletically. In his prime he's just going to get to the basket easily, the question will be if he develops anything else at an elite level.


Franz could go many ways, there's not many fluid 6"10 guys out there and Franz is easily ahead of Mobley offensively skill wise.
Franz is either going to be a very good role player or he could turn into a Superstar, height matters.

Giddey needs to learn to shoot the most, how a 6"8 guy scores this inefficiently is a bit of a head scratcher.
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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread 3 

Post#184 » by VicG » Sun Apr 10, 2022 3:21 am

Man I love Scottie and think he is the best Raps rookie since Vince but no need to discredit Mobley. Seems like a 50/50 toss up for ROY but no doubt if Bobby was offered Mobley for Barnes he does it 100/100 times. Dude has HOF potential.
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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread 3 

Post#185 » by brownbobcat » Sun Apr 10, 2022 5:11 am

Vampirate wrote:From 10 feet to the 3 point line, Barnes is shooting 20.4% of his total shots and is getting it in at about a 39.05% clip.

At the 3 point line Barnes is shooting 20.6% of his shots at a 29.8% clip.

Barnes efficiency from inside the 3 point line and outside the 3 point line is drastic, he basically shoots 10% better once he's inside the three point line, even for stuff like long 2 point shots.

For some reason if Barnes takes a step inside the 3 point line he straight up becomes a better shooter this year.

Not quite - you have to be careful about how stats are represented. If you look at the info on NBA.com, which segments shot distances differently, you get these numbers instead:

10-14 ft. 36/99 (36.4%)
15-19 ft. 26/68 (38.2%)
20-24 ft. 37/97(38.1%)
25-29 ft. 31/110(28.2%)
30-34 ft. 0/2(0%)
35-39 ft. 0/2(0%)
40+ ft. 1/4(25%)

Within that 20-24 ft. subset, he's shooting 25/73 (34.2%) on threes. So it's actually longer 3s he needs to work on, which isn't surprising considering his shot is still very much in development.
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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread 3 

Post#186 » by LoveMyRaps » Sun Apr 10, 2022 6:20 am

VicG wrote:Man I love Scottie and think he is the best Raps rookie since Vince but no need to discredit Mobley. Seems like a 50/50 toss up for ROY but no doubt if Bobby was offered Mobley for Barnes he does it 100/100 times. Dude has HOF potential.


You don’t know how the FO feels about Barnes. They could easily be higher on Barnes.
I personally think he has more potential than Mobley.
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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread 3 

Post#187 » by Madhouse » Sun Apr 10, 2022 9:40 am

LoveMyRaps wrote:
VicG wrote:Man I love Scottie and think he is the best Raps rookie since Vince but no need to discredit Mobley. Seems like a 50/50 toss up for ROY but no doubt if Bobby was offered Mobley for Barnes he does it 100/100 times. Dude has HOF potential.


You don’t know how the FO feels about Barnes. They could easily be higher on Barnes.
I personally think he has more potential than Mobley.


He might do it but that's not because of talent. Barnes has HOF potential as well.

The reason for it would be team fit. Even though Mobley is not a natural C in the NBA, he would fit better as a rim protector in the starting lineup next to Siakam.

I see Scottie as a future 2 way star like Tatum so to take Mobley right now for the long term you would have to convince me he is going to be on KGs level but I don't see that yet.

If your franchise player can't get his own shot consistently, it's a problem and doomed for the postseason. He might develop that but I also wouldn't bet on it.
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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread 3 

Post#188 » by DG88 » Sun Apr 10, 2022 12:55 pm

After experiencing Rookie Regular Season Scottie. I'm ready to see Rookie Playoff Scottie!

I'm going to keep my expectations low going in.
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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread 3 

Post#189 » by Madhouse » Sun Apr 10, 2022 1:11 pm

Too bad that his debut regular season is coming to an end but he is running on fumes again, so it's probably the right time.
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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread 3 

Post#190 » by will » Sun Apr 10, 2022 1:12 pm

You are The One, Scottish!!!!
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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread 3 

Post#191 » by vaff87 » Sun Apr 10, 2022 3:14 pm

VicG wrote:Man I love Scottie and think he is the best Raps rookie since Vince but no need to discredit Mobley. Seems like a 50/50 toss up for ROY but no doubt if Bobby was offered Mobley for Barnes he does it 100/100 times. Dude has HOF potential.


WTF??
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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread 3 

Post#192 » by Vampirate » Sun Apr 10, 2022 3:30 pm

LoveMyRaps wrote:
VicG wrote:Man I love Scottie and think he is the best Raps rookie since Vince but no need to discredit Mobley. Seems like a 50/50 toss up for ROY but no doubt if Bobby was offered Mobley for Barnes he does it 100/100 times. Dude has HOF potential.


You don’t know how the FO feels about Barnes. They could easily be higher on Barnes.
I personally think he has more potential than Mobley.


Mobley has the highest theoretical potential in the draft.

Basically if his handle and shot get to a certain point, you are just not going to stop a 7 foot player with his wingspan, he'd be KD 2.0 basically. Or KD lite.

The odds of him reaching that are much lower however than where Barnes is at offensively right now.
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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread 3 

Post#193 » by Madhouse » Sun Apr 10, 2022 3:39 pm

Vampirate wrote:
LoveMyRaps wrote:
VicG wrote:Man I love Scottie and think he is the best Raps rookie since Vince but no need to discredit Mobley. Seems like a 50/50 toss up for ROY but no doubt if Bobby was offered Mobley for Barnes he does it 100/100 times. Dude has HOF potential.


You don’t know how the FO feels about Barnes. They could easily be higher on Barnes.
I personally think he has more potential than Mobley.


Mobley has the highest theoretical potential in the draft.

Basically if his handle and shot get to a certain point, you are just not going to stop a 7 foot player with his wingspan, he'd be KD 2.0 basically. Or KD lite.

The odds of him reaching that are much lower however than where Barnes is at offensively right now.


It's better if you are taller in terms of potential but I feel it's pretty pointless if you lack basic skills for it. Bol Bol had outrageous potential according to this thinking.

It's only worth talking about if there is some chance you actually can get there.
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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread 3 

Post#194 » by Madhouse » Sun Apr 10, 2022 3:40 pm

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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread 3 

Post#195 » by hype_2004 » Sun Apr 10, 2022 3:52 pm

Vampirate wrote:
LoveMyRaps wrote:
VicG wrote:Man I love Scottie and think he is the best Raps rookie since Vince but no need to discredit Mobley. Seems like a 50/50 toss up for ROY but no doubt if Bobby was offered Mobley for Barnes he does it 100/100 times. Dude has HOF potential.


You don’t know how the FO feels about Barnes. They could easily be higher on Barnes.
I personally think he has more potential than Mobley.


Mobley has the highest theoretical potential in the draft.

Basically if his handle and shot get to a certain point, you are just not going to stop a 7 foot player with his wingspan, he'd be KD 2.0 basically. Or KD lite.

The odds of him reaching that are much lower however than where Barnes is at offensively right now.


He'll never be KD, lol, have you seen rookie KD on Seattle, he's basically a 6'10 200 lbs SG that ran the offense, the fast break, cuts, catch and shoot on the perimeter, Mobley ain't doing any of that, basically KD was an anorexic Barnes with better shooting mechanics.
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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread 3 

Post#196 » by mrdressup » Sun Apr 10, 2022 3:53 pm

Can't give the award to Jared Allen's shadow. Barnes casts his own light. You have to give it to the guy with the league leading personality.
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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread 3 

Post#197 » by Los_29 » Sun Apr 10, 2022 3:55 pm

VicG wrote:Man I love Scottie and think he is the best Raps rookie since Vince but no need to discredit Mobley. Seems like a 50/50 toss up for ROY but no doubt if Bobby was offered Mobley for Barnes he does it 100/100 times. Dude has HOF potential.


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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread 3 

Post#198 » by positivetension » Sun Apr 10, 2022 4:05 pm

VicG wrote:Man I love Scottie and think he is the best Raps rookie since Vince but no need to discredit Mobley. Seems like a 50/50 toss up for ROY but no doubt if Bobby was offered Mobley for Barnes he does it 100/100 times. Dude has HOF potential.

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100/100 lmao.. we watching the same games? I was bummed that we missed out on Mobley by one spot but after seeing them play, I really think the Raptors landed the best player in the 2021 draft. Mobley is a great pick for the Cavs but I'm getting sick of these grass is greener on the other side takes.
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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread 3 

Post#199 » by Vampirate » Sun Apr 10, 2022 4:08 pm

Madhouse wrote:
Vampirate wrote:
LoveMyRaps wrote:
You don’t know how the FO feels about Barnes. They could easily be higher on Barnes.
I personally think he has more potential than Mobley.


Mobley has the highest theoretical potential in the draft.

Basically if his handle and shot get to a certain point, you are just not going to stop a 7 foot player with his wingspan, he'd be KD 2.0 basically. Or KD lite.

The odds of him reaching that are much lower however than where Barnes is at offensively right now.


It's better if you are taller in terms of potential but I feel it's pretty pointless if you lack basic skills for it. Bol Bol had outrageous potential according to this thinking.

It's only worth talking about if there is some chance you actually can get there.


Mobley is pretty agile for a guy his size, I think he was defending ones and 2s at one point. Like pretty much all players, his ceiling depends on his handles and jump shot. I'm just repeating myself at this point.

Do I think it's likely he'll reach that height? No. However the actual possibility is there in terms of physical tools and fluidity on his feet.

Similarly, Barnes absolute ceiling is basically a much better playmaking Kawhi Leonard if everything goes well in his development.

Do I think Barnes will reach that status as a shooter? No. But he's built like Kawhi (just a bit off in wingspan and handsize) and his shooting has improved.


Both scenarios are possible as the physical tools are there for both, however it's a very very large mountain to climb.
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Re: Official Scottie Barnes Thread 3 

Post#200 » by Raptaz » Sun Apr 10, 2022 4:51 pm

will wrote:You are The One, Scottish!!!!



Let it go bro please, it ain't catching on.


Dead it

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