Grading the Ingram Trade

[ontnut]

Really hard to find another team that builds like this - trading away FRP during back to back 20ish win seasons

There's more than 1 way to skin a cat! We're the guys that zig when others zag. We can't out-tank teams and we're not a FA destination. Trading the luckbox of mid-late FRPs for a guy who has recently been an all-star and still in his prime, is the kind of team we are. We complained and complained for years about being a treadmill team, but with good trades, including trading 1st round picks, we built our franchise. Lowry, Ibaka and then eventually, Kawhi, Green, and Gasol were all acquired by trading our 1sts. Powell was a trade, FVV was FA. The only guys we actually drafted and kept for the championship run were Siakam and OG (who didn't play during the run).

Yes, the Poeltl pick turned out to be higher than expected, that's unfortunate. But the other 2 1st rounders we traded, one was the 29th pick, and the other is likely around the 20th pick. I get the desire to have a mountain of picks to trade or draft, but that's just not the way we operate. We have ammunition, and we shoot our shot judiciously. We don't stockpile gunpowder and try to build a cannon.

Can you name a team that was built by selling FRPs during 20ish win seasons? Which ended up become a contender?

No, I can't off the top of my head. But that doesn't mean it cannot work. Also let's be real here, FRPs aren't created equal. You're catterwauling over a 20th and 29th overall pick. The 29th pick was traded for a guy that was drafted 1.5 years prior at the 14th overall pick. Some might say that's like...trading the 29th pick for the 14th pick. In fact, I would say it's even better than that, given that we had a free year to see what Agbaji could do at the NBA level, whereas with the draft, you really never know what you're going to get. We drafted Flynn at the same spot. Flynn...or Agbaji? Your pick.

The ~20th pick got traded for a borderline all-star. I mean, c'mon. Do you really believe that the 2026 20th overall pick brings us closer to being a contender than Ingram? Be honest.

[DelAbbot]

There's more than 1 way to skin a cat! We're the guys that zig when others zag. We can't out-tank teams and we're not a FA destination. Trading the luckbox of mid-late FRPs for a guy who has recently been an all-star and still in his prime, is the kind of team we are. We complained and complained for years about being a treadmill team, but with good trades, including trading 1st round picks, we built our franchise. Lowry, Ibaka and then eventually, Kawhi, Green, and Gasol were all acquired by trading our 1sts. Powell was a trade, FVV was FA. The only guys we actually drafted and kept for the championship run were Siakam and OG (who didn't play during the run).

Yes, the Poeltl pick turned out to be higher than expected, that's unfortunate. But the other 2 1st rounders we traded, one was the 29th pick, and the other is likely around the 20th pick. I get the desire to have a mountain of picks to trade or draft, but that's just not the way we operate. We have ammunition, and we shoot our shot judiciously. We don't stockpile gunpowder and try to build a cannon.

Can you name a team that was built by selling FRPs during 20ish win seasons? Which ended up become a contender?

No, I can't off the top of my head. But that doesn't mean it cannot work. Also let's be real here, FRPs aren't created equal. You're catterwalling over a 20th and 29th overall pick. The 29th pick was traded for a guy that was drafted 1.5 years prior at the 14th overall pick. Some might say that's like...trading the 29th pick for the 14th pick. In fact, I would say it's even better than that, given that we had a free year to see what Agbaji could do at the NBA level, whereas with the draft, you really never know what you're going to get. We drafted Flynn at the same spot. Flynn...or Agbaji? Your pick.

The ~20th pick got traded for a borderline all-star. I mean, c'mon. Do you really believe that the 2026 20th overall pick brings us closer to being a contender than Ingram? Be honest.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying the timing is very perplexing. I would be happy to see trade of FRP for offensive firepower, once we have our core organically growing into a playoff team say in 2026/2027. Sure BI may not be available by then, but he's not really that big of a discount in this deal that we must acquire him NOW. Masai is letting the trade market dictate the progression of this team, rather than letting his drafted core on rookie contracts to dictate the progression of this team.

[ontnut]

Can you name a team that was built by selling FRPs during 20ish win seasons? Which ended up become a contender?

No, I can't off the top of my head. But that doesn't mean it cannot work. Also let's be real here, FRPs aren't created equal. You're catterwalling over a 20th and 29th overall pick. The 29th pick was traded for a guy that was drafted 1.5 years prior at the 14th overall pick. Some might say that's like...trading the 29th pick for the 14th pick. In fact, I would say it's even better than that, given that we had a free year to see what Agbaji could do at the NBA level, whereas with the draft, you really never know what you're going to get. We drafted Flynn at the same spot. Flynn...or Agbaji? Your pick.

The ~20th pick got traded for a borderline all-star. I mean, c'mon. Do you really believe that the 2026 20th overall pick brings us closer to being a contender than Ingram? Be honest.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying the timing is very perplexing. I would be happy to see trade of FRP for offensive firepower, once we have our core organically growing into a playoff team say in 2026/2027. Sure BI may not be available by then, but he's not really that big of a discount in this deal that we must acquire him NOW. Masai is letting the trade market dictate the progression of this team, rather than letting his drafted core on rookie contracts to dictate the progression of this team.

I just remembered....the CAVS traded an unprotected 2022 first round pick to get Jarrett Allen in January 2021. Their 2021-22 win total? 22 wins. CHECK. MATE.

lol. I'm just playin'. But there IS an example of a recent 22 win team trading an UNPROTECTED 1st, and are now a top contender, 4 years after that trade.

I don't profess to know what Masai's true thinking is, but judging by the way he has used 1st rounders over the years, this kinda deal is exactly his MO.

[DelAbbot]

No, I can't off the top of my head. But that doesn't mean it cannot work. Also let's be real here, FRPs aren't created equal. You're catterwalling over a 20th and 29th overall pick. The 29th pick was traded for a guy that was drafted 1.5 years prior at the 14th overall pick. Some might say that's like...trading the 29th pick for the 14th pick. In fact, I would say it's even better than that, given that we had a free year to see what Agbaji could do at the NBA level, whereas with the draft, you really never know what you're going to get. We drafted Flynn at the same spot. Flynn...or Agbaji? Your pick.

The ~20th pick got traded for a borderline all-star. I mean, c'mon. Do you really believe that the 2026 20th overall pick brings us closer to being a contender than Ingram? Be honest.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying the timing is very perplexing. I would be happy to see trade of FRP for offensive firepower, once we have our core organically growing into a playoff team say in 2026/2027. Sure BI may not be available by then, but he's not really that big of a discount in this deal that we must acquire him NOW. Masai is letting the trade market dictate the progression of this team, rather than letting his drafted core on rookie contracts to dictate the progression of this team.

I just remembered....the CAVS traded an unprotected 2022 first round pick to get Jarrett Allen in January 2021. Their 2021-22 win total? 22 wins. CHECK. MATE.

Damn, we ARE the Cavs

[ontnut]

I'm not saying that. I'm saying the timing is very perplexing. I would be happy to see trade of FRP for offensive firepower, once we have our core organically growing into a playoff team say in 2026/2027. Sure BI may not be available by then, but he's not really that big of a discount in this deal that we must acquire him NOW. Masai is letting the trade market dictate the progression of this team, rather than letting his drafted core on rookie contracts to dictate the progression of this team.

I just remembered....the CAVS traded an unprotected 2022 first round pick to get Jarrett Allen in January 2021. Their 2021-22 win total? 22 wins. CHECK. MATE.

Damn, we ARE the Cavs

lol. Just need to find our Mitchell now I guess?
RJ and alll the picks for Booker. Maybe? MAYBEE???

[DelAbbot]

I just remembered....the CAVS traded an unprotected 2022 first round pick to get Jarrett Allen in January 2021. Their 2021-22 win total? 22 wins. CHECK. MATE.

Damn, we ARE the Cavs

lol. Just need to find our Mitchell now I guess?
RJ and alll the picks for Booker. Maybe? MAYBEE???

So you are saying we are going to hit the lottery and get Flagg like they did Mobley?

I see Masai's plan now.

[RoteSchroder]

There's more than 1 way to skin a cat! We're the guys that zig when others zag. We can't out-tank teams and we're not a FA destination. Trading the luckbox of mid-late FRPs for a guy who has recently been an all-star and still in his prime, is the kind of team we are. We complained and complained for years about being a treadmill team, but with good trades, including trading 1st round picks, we built our franchise. Lowry, Ibaka and then eventually, Kawhi, Green, and Gasol were all acquired by trading our 1sts. Powell was a trade, FVV was FA. The only guys we actually drafted and kept for the championship run were Siakam and OG (who didn't play during the run).

Yes, the Poeltl pick turned out to be higher than expected, that's unfortunate. But the other 2 1st rounders we traded, one was the 29th pick, and the other is likely around the 20th pick. I get the desire to have a mountain of picks to trade or draft, but that's just not the way we operate. We have ammunition, and we shoot our shot judiciously. We don't stockpile gunpowder and try to build a cannon.

Can you name a team that was built by selling FRPs during 20ish win seasons? Which ended up become a contender?

No, I can't off the top of my head. But that doesn't mean it cannot work. Also let's be real here, FRPs aren't created equal. You're catterwalling over a 20th and 29th overall pick. The 29th pick was traded for a guy that was drafted 1.5 years prior at the 14th overall pick. Some might say that's like...trading the 29th pick for the 14th pick. In fact, I would say it's even better than that, given that we had a free year to see what Agbaji could do at the NBA level, whereas with the draft, you really never know what you're going to get. We drafted Flynn at the same spot. Flynn...or Agbaji? Your pick.

The ~20th pick got traded for a borderline all-star. I mean, c'mon. Do you really believe that the 2026 20th overall pick brings us closer to being a contender than Ingram? Be honest.

If the conditions are only 20ish win teams that sold 1st round picks, then we definitely have an example:

Celtics had 24 wins, traded their newly drafted 5th pick (Jeff Green) for Ray Allen and two 1st round picks in a package for Garnett

Although it wasn't during the season, if they did it during the season, they still become contenders.

[ontnut]

Damn, we ARE the Cavs

lol. Just need to find our Mitchell now I guess?
RJ and alll the picks for Booker. Maybe? MAYBEE???

So you are saying we are going to hit the lottery and get Flagg like they did Mobley?

I see Masai's plan now.

I can't tell you the future, because if I tell you, it won't happen.

[DelAbbot]

Can you name a team that was built by selling FRPs during 20ish win seasons? Which ended up become a contender?

No, I can't off the top of my head. But that doesn't mean it cannot work. Also let's be real here, FRPs aren't created equal. You're catterwalling over a 20th and 29th overall pick. The 29th pick was traded for a guy that was drafted 1.5 years prior at the 14th overall pick. Some might say that's like...trading the 29th pick for the 14th pick. In fact, I would say it's even better than that, given that we had a free year to see what Agbaji could do at the NBA level, whereas with the draft, you really never know what you're going to get. We drafted Flynn at the same spot. Flynn...or Agbaji? Your pick.

The ~20th pick got traded for a borderline all-star. I mean, c'mon. Do you really believe that the 2026 20th overall pick brings us closer to being a contender than Ingram? Be honest.

If the conditions are only 20ish win teams that sold 1st round picks, then we definitely have an example:

Celtics had 24 wins, traded their newly drafted 5th pick (Jeff Green) for Ray Allen and two 1st round picks in a package for Garnett

Although it wasn't during the season, if they did it during the season, they still become contenders.

You are kidding me. That Ray Allen trade is way better than this BI deal. The Garnett trade is basically the Kawhi deal with long term contract (MacHale basically gifted KG to Bos). That's no brainer.

[TravisScott55]

Gotta see the contract first

[RoteSchroder]

No, I can't off the top of my head. But that doesn't mean it cannot work. Also let's be real here, FRPs aren't created equal. You're catterwalling over a 20th and 29th overall pick. The 29th pick was traded for a guy that was drafted 1.5 years prior at the 14th overall pick. Some might say that's like...trading the 29th pick for the 14th pick. In fact, I would say it's even better than that, given that we had a free year to see what Agbaji could do at the NBA level, whereas with the draft, you really never know what you're going to get. We drafted Flynn at the same spot. Flynn...or Agbaji? Your pick.

The ~20th pick got traded for a borderline all-star. I mean, c'mon. Do you really believe that the 2026 20th overall pick brings us closer to being a contender than Ingram? Be honest.

If the conditions are only 20ish win teams that sold 1st round picks, then we definitely have an example:

Celtics had 24 wins, traded their newly drafted 5th pick (Jeff Green) for Ray Allen and two 1st round picks in a package for Garnett

Although it wasn't during the season, if they did it during the season, they still become contenders.

You are kidding me. That Ray Allen trade is way better than this BI deal. The Garnett trade is basically the Kawhi deal with long term contract (MacHale basically gifted KG to Bos). That's no brainer.

You’re the one who set the conditions, not me.

This was your question:

Can you name a team that was built by selling FRPs during 20ish win seasons? Which ended up become a contender?

[Appostis]

B+

[DreamTeam09]

Really hard to find another team that builds like this - trading away FRP during back to back 20ish win seasons

There's more than 1 way to skin a cat! We're the guys that zig when others zag. We can't out-tank teams and we're not a FA destination. Trading the luckbox of mid-late FRPs for a guy who has recently been an all-star and still in his prime, is the kind of team we are. We complained and complained for years about being a treadmill team, but with good trades, including trading 1st round picks, we built our franchise. Lowry, Ibaka and then eventually, Kawhi, Green, and Gasol were all acquired by trading our 1sts. Powell was a trade, FVV was FA. The only guys we actually drafted and kept for the championship run were Siakam and OG (who didn't play during the run).

Yes, the Poeltl pick turned out to be higher than expected, that's unfortunate. But the other 2 1st rounders we traded, one was the 29th pick, and the other is likely around the 20th pick. I get the desire to have a mountain of picks to trade or draft, but that's just not the way we operate. We have ammunition, and we shoot our shot judiciously. We don't stockpile gunpowder and try to build a cannon.

Can you name a team that was built by selling FRPs during 20ish win seasons? Which ended up become a contender?

Why don't you put names and draft slots and be more specific when you say 1st round picks and then see how your judgement holds up. Zach Edey or Rob Dillingham or McCain are the best players available with the 9th pick in the 2924 draft, expectations is another non lottery 2026 1st round pick. Hardly game changers, all good or even great prospects to have sure, game changers)losing sleep over, especially with what we got in return, I certainly wouldn't hold on to "oh no we traded a 1st"

[TGM]

I encourage people to go on X and IG to read the comments from Nola fans regarding BI’s departure. They are devastated and want their GM fired. They viewed him as the most valuable piece and felt that their core was moving toward an OKC type rebuild. With Dejounte, Trey, Herb, BI, Zion and Missi.

Can’t blame them.

The love for BI is like when Derozan left Toronto.

We got something special.

[lebron stopper]

Not a fan of this trade, tbh. I gave it a C. I have never been high on Ingram myself, so I really do wonder what the front office sees in him as a player, but he is at least talented enough to warrant trading for.

It's pretty apparent that Masai thought he was being clever again by using Bruce Brown and Kelly Olynyk as salary fillers for Ingram after he failed to find any takers for them. I have a feeling this will backfire spectacularly, like most of his other "clever" trades (Grent and Poeltl come to mind), once Ingram gets vastly overpaid for what he brings and his contract cripples any remaining flexibility the Raptors have while being too difficult to move for value in the second apron era. My guess is Ingram's new contract is well above $40 million per year? Quickley got paid way more than anyone expected and I expect the same to happen with Ingram here. The Pacers pick was certainly necessary to complete the trade, but losing that pick (ie. cheap rookie contract and chosen by a well-drafting FO) will definitely hurt if the Pacers end up being worse than expected next season, which is still possible.

Between the Raptors stacking up meaningless wins over the last few weeks to lower their odds of getting true game-changing talent in the draft (in part thanks to players who are not part of the Raptors future), and this acquisition of Ingram to put next to Quickley and Barrett and Barnes who themselves are highly paid, it could very well be possible that the Raptors' window of contention ends before it could really begin. Unless Masai manages to rip off a few teams again, the ceiling of this team might be set at something like 2nd round exit for the foreseeable future.

[Thaddy]

Not a fan of this trade, tbh. I gave it a C. I have never been high on Ingram myself, so I really do wonder what the front office sees in him as a player, but he is at least talented enough to warrant trading for.

It's pretty apparent that Masai thought he was being clever again by using Bruce Brown and Kelly Olynyk as salary fillers for Ingram after he failed to find any takers for them. I have a feeling this will backfire spectacularly, like most of his other "clever" trades (Grent and Poeltl come to mind), once Ingram gets vastly overpaid for what he brings and his contract cripples any remaining flexibility the Raptors have while being too difficult to move for value in the second apron era. My guess is Ingram's new contract is well above $40 million per year? Quickley got paid way more than anyone expected and I expect the same to happen with Ingram here. The Pacers pick was certainly necessary to complete the trade, but losing that pick (ie. cheap rookie contract and chosen by a well-drafting FO) will definitely hurt if the Pacers end up being worse than expected next season, which is still possible.

Between the Raptors stacking up meaningless wins over the last few weeks to lower their odds of getting true game-changing talent in the draft (in part thanks to players who are not part of the Raptors future), and this acquisition of Ingram to put next to Quickley and Barrett and Barnes who themselves are highly paid, it could very well be possible that the Raptors' window of contention ends before it could really begin. Unless Masai manages to rip off a few teams again, the ceiling of this team might be set at something like 2nd round exit for the foreseeable future.

Ingram and his team know that no one was willing to give him what he wants. There aren't many teams with cap space in the off season so the Raptors can play hard ball with him. They'll likely sign him to a 3 year 100M deal. That would be fair value for his production and the fact he's in his prime.

The other side needs to be considered too. Could the Raptors add a similarly talented player in free agency or through the draft? The chances of that are close to 0. They'll now be adding a top 10 pick, Ingram, and have an improved line up by shifting players to be in better positions. This means Barrett will be a SG again and Gradey will boost their bench.

Poeltl / Chomche / Maluach (2025 1st)
Barnes / Mogbo / Boucher
Ingram / Agbaji / Battle
Barrett / Dick / Walter
IQ / Shead / Larrea (2025 2nd)

That's a much stronger roster than what they started this season with. They also have a lot of flexibility, they can breakdown Barrett's contract and add on a cheap contract like Battle, Walter, or Agbaji and get back 2 great role players.

[Rawahl]

I gave it a C, but there are a lot of ifs that could modify my grade:
--> Free agency: if we lose BI in free agency it would be the worst case, so I hope he gets extended ASAP.
--> Price Tag: if we overpay (with a player option) for his services it could handcuff us and cost us even more picks to unload him should he not reach his potential. We have to remember that borderline All-stars are the real danger for every cap
--> Play: can he contribute and how will the team evolve. I would be elated if we manage somehow to crack top 4 in the lottery and can choose a very good prospect, but I would also enjoy a playoff series as a team on the rise. I only hope that we don't get stuck in the middle (picking 10-14) where all the good prospects are already gone.

The C comes from the following reasoning. There have been many recent superstars, that have been taken not on the top of the draft (Giannis, SGA) and our FO desperately tried to get a higher pick to take them, failing every time. We risk to be in the same situation again. I don't know what player our FO will try to get, but at the end, the higher you pick, the more choices you have. And for once, I think it would have been possible to organize a good tank. The team would have been to strong to get a good tank position, but with all our injuries we got a head start. Now there is only the possibility to ruin everything.

[Thaddy]

I gave it a C, but there are a lot of ifs that could modify my grade:
--> Free agency: if we lose BI in free agency it would be the worst case, so I hope he gets extended ASAP.
--> Price Tag: if we overpay (with a player option) for his services it could handcuff us and cost us even more picks to unload him should he not reach his potential. We have to remember that borderline All-stars are the real danger for every cap
--> Play: can he contribute and how will the team evolve. I would be elated if we manage somehow to crack top 4 in the lottery and can choose a very good prospect, but I would also enjoy a playoff series as a team on the rise. I only hope that we don't get stuck in the middle (picking 10-14) where all the good prospects are already gone.

The C comes from the following reasoning. There have been many recent superstars, that have been taken not on the top of the draft (Giannis, SGA) and our FO desperately tried to get a higher pick to take them, failing every time. We risk to be in the same situation again. I don't know what player our FO will try to get, but at the end, the higher you pick, the more choices you have. And for once, I think it would have been possible to organize a good tank. The team would have been to strong to get a good tank position, but with all our injuries we got a head start. Now there is only the possibility to ruin everything.

They are going to extend BI soon, he's extension eligible and wants to be here. They will likely play hard ball with him since no one wants him at the price he expects.

Ingram is a better scorer than Siakam and we desperately need half court creation, he's going to address that issue. Borderline all stars are where you have to gamble as a small market non-destination team. Ingram is just entering his prime and when he's not injured he's all star level. Barnes and Ingram is comparable to Bachero and Wagner among other forward star combos.

Bobby has already came out and stated this season is still for development and rebuilding. We're going to give even more minutes to Mogbo, Battle, Dick, Walter, and Shead. I can see Chomche getting minutes as well. We won't be playing Ingram, Quickely, and our other staple starters heavily until next season. We will be slotted in the 4-6 position when the lottery happens.

The Raptors are probably going to draft 1 of the top 3 or Maluach. After that happens we will have every hole in our line up plugged and ready to go for next season.

If we're a top 6 team that will translate to our assets having higher value. I would guess at that point we will be in the running for any stars that become available and gradually become contenders. By the time Barnes contract is over we will have multiple deep playoff runs.

[Rapsalot]

I would say B- with all the assumptions of reasonableness:

By reasonableness I mean he plays 60 games a year plus playoffs. That is the Kawhi Leonard amount in 2019. Fair contract both sides. 4 years { Note he made $38 mil last year but before that he was about $32 mil }. Cap has gone up over contract so fair to me is $ 39mil per for 4 years. Yes he turned down $40 mil but hopefully he is self aware that his games play history is not great.
We play him at SF only we need to provide teammates so he does not have to be banging down low as he is tall but slender. Realistically I would rather he play SG vs PF if we have to move him in lineup.

This is a high risk trade that could be as low as D and as high as A+ it all depends on { contract, games, and 3fg% }

[ChillPill]

I think the Raps are in a good position. Not an amazing one, like OKC, but a good one nonetheless.

We have some good young players. We'll get a top-10 pick this year. And, importantly, we still have all of our picks moving forward. It's a good position.