[STEIN]: Hawks have expressed interest in trying to hire Masai Ujiri away from Toronto

[Raptors Realtor]

Everyone and their mother knew that he was going to get $30M+ and that we were not going to pay him that. It was also clear to everyone (but Masai) that the team should have pivoted towards a rebuild two years ago.

I remember hearing Raps offered him around $120M/4.

Van Vleet turned down 4 years at 115M heading into the season. The Rockets came and offered him 3 years at 130M. It’s literally a front offices’ job to go through all of the scenarios and game plan for it. And the other problem was that Masai’s back up solution was Dennis Schroeder who is in no way starting PG. It just goes to show you there was no plan.

Ya and then Raps reportedly offered him $120M/4 in free agency. I don't disagree it's management's job to establish possible scenarios, however everybody was shocked when he got offered the max because he wasn't viewed as a max player, the only reason Houston offered him the max is because they were below the cap floor, so they could overpay.

[Pointgod]

I remember hearing Raps offered him around $120M/4.

Van Vleet turned down 4 years at 115M heading into the season. The Rockets came and offered him 3 years at 130M. It’s literally a front offices’ job to go through all of the scenarios and game plan for it. And the other problem was that Masai’s back up solution was Dennis Schroeder who is in no way starting PG. It just goes to show you there was no plan.

Ya and then Raps reportedly offered him $120M/4 in free agency. I don't disagree it's management's job to establish possible scenarios, however everybody was shocked when he got offered the max because he wasn't viewed as a max player, the only reason Houston offered him the max is because they were below the cap floor, so they could overpay.

Well yeah they should have anticipated that. There were a couple of teams with salary cap space that could have offered a similar deal. The point is that if you weren’t willing to match an offer then you get something for him vs losing him for nothing. At least he learned his lesson with Pascal and OG.

[Scase]

I think Masai is pretty mediocre-to-bad at setting an overall vision for his teams.

However, he still remains one of the best (if not best) drafting executives in the league.

I think having an eye for talent is much more valuable than being a good negotiator or knowing when it's time to transition a team towards a rebuild. For that reason, I'm fine with holding onto Masai. I don't think there is anyone out there on the retread market who gives us a better chance at having a competitive team, and I certainly don't think that Ed Rogers has the skill to identify a high-potential candidate from the market of unknowns.

I think I would be fine with Masai sticking around, if we had a competent GM working under him. Bobby might be a cap wizard, but a GM he is not. If we are to believe that the last couple years of stupidity were due to a lack of oversight from Masai, then there is no reason to keep him around.

You should treat the FO the same way you do a coaching staff, HC is great at offence but sucks at defence? Hire an assistant that can cover that gap, I fail to see why you would need a GM just to manage the cap sheet, we need a legit negotiator and someone with some vision on constructing a team, let Masai be the big picture guy with a heavy hand on drafting. As a leader you should never be the smartest guy in the room, you should be hiring people that are way better at things you aren't great at.

Masai is a great culture setter which is one of the hardest things to do as a front office. I’d also say he’s great at drafting and developing talent. Which is why it’s so freaking confusing that that he’s opted to trade draft picks over the years instead of acquiring multiple first round picks to build out a competent bench.

The constant trading of draft picks, despite no one ever wanting to come here, and drafting being such a massive advantage for us, will never make any sense to me.

[earthtone]

I think I would be fine with Masai sticking around, if we had a competent GM working under him. Bobby might be a cap wizard, but a GM he is not. If we are to believe that the last couple years of stupidity were due to a lack of oversight from Masai, then there is no reason to keep him around.

You should treat the FO the same way you do a coaching staff, HC is great at offence but sucks at defence? Hire an assistant that can cover that gap, I fail to see why you would need a GM just to manage the cap sheet, we need a legit negotiator and someone with some vision on constructing a team, let Masai be the big picture guy with a heavy hand on drafting. As a leader you should never be the smartest guy in the room, you should be hiring people that are way better at things you aren't great at.

Masai is a great culture setter which is one of the hardest things to do as a front office. I’d also say he’s great at drafting and developing talent. Which is why it’s so freaking confusing that that he’s opted to trade draft picks over the years instead of acquiring multiple first round picks to build out a competent bench.

The constant trading of draft picks, despite no one ever wanting to come here, and drafting being such a massive advantage for us, will never make any sense to me.

I might be able to help you guys out here, it makes sense if you look at the returns he got those picks.

Every 1st Round pick Masai has traded:

2017 |25th ovr [LAC]| to Orlando w/ Terrence Ross for Serge Ibaka. Selected OG Anunoby 23rd ovr.
2018 | 29th ovr.| to Brooklyn w/ Demarre Carroll as a Cap-dump. Cap space was used to resign Ibaka & Lowry to extensions.
2019 | 29th ovr.| to San Antonio w/Jak & Derozan for Kawhi Leonard and Danny Green.
2022 | 20th ovr.| to San Antonio w/ Goran Dragic for Thaddeus Young & the 33rd overall pick
2024 |8th ovr.| to San Antonio w/Khem Birch & two second for Jakob Poeltl. Selected Ja'Kobe Walter 19th ovr.
2024 | 29th ovr. [OKC]|to New Orleans w/Kira Lewis & Otto Porter Jr for Ochai Agbaji & Kelly Olynyk. Selected Ja'Kobe Walter 19th ovr.
2026 | TBD [IND]| to New Orleans w/Bruce Brown & Kelly Olynyk for Brandon Ingram

In twelve years running the org, he's traded 7 first round picks, 5 of which were in the 20's, 1 in the Top 10, and one TBD. Those first round picks turned into:

Serge Ibaka, Kawhi Leonard, Danny Green, Thaddeus Young, Jakob Poeltl, Ochai Agbaji, and Brandon Ingram.

I think looking at that list it's pretty clear why those picks were traded, and it'd be hard to argue the return hasn't been positive

[CPT]

Masai is a great culture setter which is one of the hardest things to do as a front office. I’d also say he’s great at drafting and developing talent. Which is why it’s so freaking confusing that that he’s opted to trade draft picks over the years instead of acquiring multiple first round picks to build out a competent bench.

The constant trading of draft picks, despite no one ever wanting to come here, and drafting being such a massive advantage for us, will never make any sense to me.

I might be able to help you guys out here, it makes sense if you look at the returns he got those picks.

Every 1st Round pick Masai has traded:

2017 |25th ovr [LAC]| to Orlando w/ Terrence Ross for Serge Ibaka. Selected OG Anunoby 23rd ovr.
2018 | 29th ovr.| to Brooklyn w/ Demarre Carroll as a Cap-dump. Cap space was used to resign Ibaka & Lowry to extensions.
2019 | 29th ovr.| to San Antonio w/Jak & Derozan for Kawhi Leonard and Danny Green.
2022 | 20th ovr.| to San Antonio w/ Goran Dragic for Thaddeus Young & the 33rd overall pick
2024 |8th ovr.| to San Antonio w/Khem Birch & two second for Jakob Poeltl. Selected Ja'Kobe Walter 19th ovr.
2024 | 29th ovr. [OKC]|to New Orleans w/Kira Lewis & Otto Porter Jr for Ochai Agbaji & Kelly Olynyk. Selected Ja'Kobe Walter 19th ovr.
2026 | TBD [IND]| to New Orleans w/Bruce Brown & Kelly Olynyk for Brandon Ingram

In twelve years running the org, he's traded 7 first round picks, 5 of which were in the 20's, 1 in the Top 10, and one TBD. Those first round picks turned into:

Serge Ibaka, Kawhi Leonard, Danny Green, Thaddeus Young, Jakob Poeltl, Ochai Agbaji, and Brandon Ingram.

I think looking at that list it's pretty clear why those picks were traded, and it'd be hard to argue the return hasn't been positive

It’s almost as if something changed around… 2019? Something that made trading picks make less sense. Who knows though, every transaction is definitely made in a vacuum with no effect on anything else.

[Los_29]

The constant trading of draft picks, despite no one ever wanting to come here, and drafting being such a massive advantage for us, will never make any sense to me.

I might be able to help you guys out here, it makes sense if you look at the returns he got those picks.

Every 1st Round pick Masai has traded:

2017 |25th ovr [LAC]| to Orlando w/ Terrence Ross for Serge Ibaka. Selected OG Anunoby 23rd ovr.
2018 | 29th ovr.| to Brooklyn w/ Demarre Carroll as a Cap-dump. Cap space was used to resign Ibaka & Lowry to extensions.
2019 | 29th ovr.| to San Antonio w/Jak & Derozan for Kawhi Leonard and Danny Green.
2022 | 20th ovr.| to San Antonio w/ Goran Dragic for Thaddeus Young & the 33rd overall pick
2024 |8th ovr.| to San Antonio w/Khem Birch & two second for Jakob Poeltl. Selected Ja'Kobe Walter 19th ovr.
2024 | 29th ovr. [OKC]|to New Orleans w/Kira Lewis & Otto Porter Jr for Ochai Agbaji & Kelly Olynyk. Selected Ja'Kobe Walter 19th ovr.
2026 | TBD [IND]| to New Orleans w/Bruce Brown & Kelly Olynyk for Brandon Ingram

In twelve years running the org, he's traded 7 first round picks, 5 of which were in the 20's, 1 in the Top 10, and one TBD. Those first round picks turned into:

Serge Ibaka, Kawhi Leonard, Danny Green, Thaddeus Young, Jakob Poeltl, Ochai Agbaji, and Brandon Ingram.

I think looking at that list it's pretty clear why those picks were traded, and it'd be hard to argue the return hasn't been positive

It’s almost as if something changed around… 2019? Something that made trading picks make less sense. Who knows though, every transaction is definitely made in a vacuum with no effect on anything else.

Trading a horrible pick for Ochai makes a ton of sense.

The timing of the Poeltl trade was poor. But the value was good given how bad the draft class was last year. It didn’t set us back.

Only draft pick we gave up that cost us better players was the Thad trade but that was done for cap flexibility and those trades are made every year. The fact that’s seen as Masai’s worst move shows you how good he is. Presti let KD walk and traded Harden for nothing. Those are the moves that set teams back years. Not trading low value picks.

[earthtone]

The constant trading of draft picks, despite no one ever wanting to come here, and drafting being such a massive advantage for us, will never make any sense to me.

I might be able to help you guys out here, it makes sense if you look at the returns he got those picks.

Every 1st Round pick Masai has traded:

2017 |25th ovr [LAC]| to Orlando w/ Terrence Ross for Serge Ibaka. Selected OG Anunoby 23rd ovr.
2018 | 29th ovr.| to Brooklyn w/ Demarre Carroll as a Cap-dump. Cap space was used to resign Ibaka & Lowry to extensions.
2019 | 29th ovr.| to San Antonio w/Jak & Derozan for Kawhi Leonard and Danny Green.
2022 | 20th ovr.| to San Antonio w/ Goran Dragic for Thaddeus Young & the 33rd overall pick
2024 |8th ovr.| to San Antonio w/Khem Birch & two second for Jakob Poeltl. Selected Ja'Kobe Walter 19th ovr.
2024 | 29th ovr. [OKC]|to New Orleans w/Kira Lewis & Otto Porter Jr for Ochai Agbaji & Kelly Olynyk. Selected Ja'Kobe Walter 19th ovr.
2026 | TBD [IND]| to New Orleans w/Bruce Brown & Kelly Olynyk for Brandon Ingram

In twelve years running the org, he's traded 7 first round picks, 5 of which were in the 20's, 1 in the Top 10, and one TBD. Those first round picks turned into:

Serge Ibaka, Kawhi Leonard, Danny Green, Thaddeus Young, Jakob Poeltl, Ochai Agbaji, and Brandon Ingram.

I think looking at that list it's pretty clear why those picks were traded, and it'd be hard to argue the return hasn't been positive

It’s almost as if something changed around… 2019? Something that made trading picks make less sense. Who knows though, every transaction is definitely made in a vacuum with no effect on anything else.

Genuinely don't understand the point you're trying to make here

[mtcan]

I might be able to help you guys out here, it makes sense if you look at the returns he got those picks.

Every 1st Round pick Masai has traded:

2017 |25th ovr [LAC]| to Orlando w/ Terrence Ross for Serge Ibaka. Selected OG Anunoby 23rd ovr.
2018 | 29th ovr.| to Brooklyn w/ Demarre Carroll as a Cap-dump. Cap space was used to resign Ibaka & Lowry to extensions.
2019 | 29th ovr.| to San Antonio w/Jak & Derozan for Kawhi Leonard and Danny Green.
2022 | 20th ovr.| to San Antonio w/ Goran Dragic for Thaddeus Young & the 33rd overall pick
2024 |8th ovr.| to San Antonio w/Khem Birch & two second for Jakob Poeltl. Selected Ja'Kobe Walter 19th ovr.
2024 | 29th ovr. [OKC]|to New Orleans w/Kira Lewis & Otto Porter Jr for Ochai Agbaji & Kelly Olynyk. Selected Ja'Kobe Walter 19th ovr.
2026 | TBD [IND]| to New Orleans w/Bruce Brown & Kelly Olynyk for Brandon Ingram

In twelve years running the org, he's traded 7 first round picks, 5 of which were in the 20's, 1 in the Top 10, and one TBD. Those first round picks turned into:

Serge Ibaka, Kawhi Leonard, Danny Green, Thaddeus Young, Jakob Poeltl, Ochai Agbaji, and Brandon Ingram.

I think looking at that list it's pretty clear why those picks were traded, and it'd be hard to argue the return hasn't been positive

It’s almost as if something changed around… 2019? Something that made trading picks make less sense. Who knows though, every transaction is definitely made in a vacuum with no effect on anything else.

Trading a horrible pick for Ochai makes a ton of sense.

The timing of the Poeltl trade was poor. But the value was good given how bad the draft class was last year. It didn’t set us back.

Only draft pick we gave up that cost us better players was the Thad trade but that was done for cap flexibility and those trades are made every year. The fact that’s seen as Masai’s worst move shows you how good he is. Presti let KD walk and traded Harden for nothing. Those are the moves that set teams back years. Not trading low value picks.

The ROI on trading a late first for Ochai has been positive. Darko and the coaching staff has done an excellent job turning Ochai into a legit rotation player/fringe starter with a marketable skill set. And if a team like the Lakers or even the Magic want a proven 3+D guard/wing for a mid-late first round pick...that would be a way sell on the heels of a nice bounce back season for Ochai.

We still don't know if Isiah Collier will make it to another NBA contract considering how many guards the Jazz will figure on having by the end of this draft. Clearly they played Collier heavy minutes only because they were trying tank hard and I was not impressed at all watching him. There is a reason he was 2nd last pick taken in the first round.

[Scase]

I might be able to help you guys out here, it makes sense if you look at the returns he got those picks.

Every 1st Round pick Masai has traded:

2017 |25th ovr [LAC]| to Orlando w/ Terrence Ross for Serge Ibaka. Selected OG Anunoby 23rd ovr.
2018 | 29th ovr.| to Brooklyn w/ Demarre Carroll as a Cap-dump. Cap space was used to resign Ibaka & Lowry to extensions.
2019 | 29th ovr.| to San Antonio w/Jak & Derozan for Kawhi Leonard and Danny Green.
2022 | 20th ovr.| to San Antonio w/ Goran Dragic for Thaddeus Young & the 33rd overall pick
2024 |8th ovr.| to San Antonio w/Khem Birch & two second for Jakob Poeltl. Selected Ja'Kobe Walter 19th ovr.
2024 | 29th ovr. [OKC]|to New Orleans w/Kira Lewis & Otto Porter Jr for Ochai Agbaji & Kelly Olynyk. Selected Ja'Kobe Walter 19th ovr.
2026 | TBD [IND]| to New Orleans w/Bruce Brown & Kelly Olynyk for Brandon Ingram

In twelve years running the org, he's traded 7 first round picks, 5 of which were in the 20's, 1 in the Top 10, and one TBD. Those first round picks turned into:

Serge Ibaka, Kawhi Leonard, Danny Green, Thaddeus Young, Jakob Poeltl, Ochai Agbaji, and Brandon Ingram.

I think looking at that list it's pretty clear why those picks were traded, and it'd be hard to argue the return hasn't been positive

It’s almost as if something changed around… 2019? Something that made trading picks make less sense. Who knows though, every transaction is definitely made in a vacuum with no effect on anything else.

Genuinely don't understand the point you're trying to make here

Yeah, that's pretty evident.

Allow me to help, post 2019, we were in a serious asset debt, we (rightfully) moved a bunch of assets to build towards a chip. After that we didn't have much and mismanaged what assets we did have.

It's weird how so many people are hyped about a 9th pick and how Masai will "work his magic" yet losing the 8th or better was totally fine. So many people holding up Jak as a reason why landing the 9th pick isn't bad, yet in the same breath kept saying how finding someone as good as jak with the 8th pick was incredibly unlikely. Weird how that keeps shifting.

We have traded more, and higher value picks as a rebuilding team post chip, than we did pre-chip. Think about that for a second.

[ItsDanger]

If a GM has to make a trade for cap flexibility to avoid tax which they created in the first place, you can't provide that as an excuse for a bad trade. This reasoning has been repeated constantly on here intentionally for some **** up reason.

If it was a bad trade, just accept it.

[earthtone]

It’s almost as if something changed around… 2019? Something that made trading picks make less sense. Who knows though, every transaction is definitely made in a vacuum with no effect on anything else.

Genuinely don't understand the point you're trying to make here

Yeah, that's pretty evident.

Allow me to help, post 2019, we were in a serious asset debt, we (rightfully) moved a bunch of assets to build towards a chip. After that we didn't have much and mismanaged what assets we did have.

It's weird how so many people are hyped about a 9th pick and how Masai will "work his magic" yet losing the 8th or better was totally fine. So many people holding up Jak as a reason why landing the 9th pick isn't bad, yet in the same breath kept saying how finding someone as good as jak with the 8th pick was incredibly unlikely. Weird how that keeps shifting.

We have traded more, and higher value picks as a rebuilding team post chip, than we did pre-chip. Think about that for a second.

I just don't get how in one breath you can say he's good at using picks to identify and develop talent via the draft, but when he decides to use a pick to acquire and develop players via trade all of a sudden the sky is falling.

I just listed the assets that were traded and don't see the mismanagement you're seeing. In the past 5 years we drafted a bust at 29th and had a trade down that was questionable at best, but used the remaining assets to draft Scottie Barnes, Gradey Dick, Ja'Kobe Walter, and trade for Jakob Poeltl and Brandon Ingram. Still another Top 10 pick to add to that next month.

That's very far from asset mismanagement in my eyes

[TorontoBarneys]

I think I would be fine with Masai sticking around, if we had a competent GM working under him. Bobby might be a cap wizard, but a GM he is not. If we are to believe that the last couple years of stupidity were due to a lack of oversight from Masai, then there is no reason to keep him around.

You should treat the FO the same way you do a coaching staff, HC is great at offence but sucks at defence? Hire an assistant that can cover that gap, I fail to see why you would need a GM just to manage the cap sheet, we need a legit negotiator and someone with some vision on constructing a team, let Masai be the big picture guy with a heavy hand on drafting. As a leader you should never be the smartest guy in the room, you should be hiring people that are way better at things you aren't great at.

Masai is a great culture setter which is one of the hardest things to do as a front office. I’d also say he’s great at drafting and developing talent. Which is why it’s so freaking confusing that that he’s opted to trade draft picks over the years instead of acquiring multiple first round picks to build out a competent bench.

The constant trading of draft picks, despite no one ever wanting to come here, and drafting being such a massive advantage for us, will never make any sense to me.

People are still stuck on the notion that if Masai did it once with the Kawhi trade, he can surely do it again. Many, many people don't seem to understand the sheer luck that went into making that championship possible. I don't even mean this in any negative way, simply making an observation, but many posters really do believe we are better off with the wheel & deal route than we are in a pure tank. Well, the choice was made for us already so here's hoping they are right, eh?

[DelAbbot]

Masai is a great culture setter which is one of the hardest things to do as a front office. I’d also say he’s great at drafting and developing talent. Which is why it’s so freaking confusing that that he’s opted to trade draft picks over the years instead of acquiring multiple first round picks to build out a competent bench.

The constant trading of draft picks, despite no one ever wanting to come here, and drafting being such a massive advantage for us, will never make any sense to me.

People are still stuck on the notion that if Masai did it once with the Kawhi trade, he can surely do it again. Many, many people don't seem to understand the sheer luck that went into making that championship possible. I don't even mean this in any negative way, simply making an observation, but many posters really do believe we are better off with the wheel & deal route than we are in a pure tank. Well, the choice was made for us already so here's hoping they are right, eh?

That's not what anti-TWO are saying. They are saying, and Masai follows this approach: The way to build a contender is incremental. You draft, trade and sign young players and develop their values - them when you have an abundance, you consolidate into a star player or 2. This is the approach to building a contender.

Of course they point to the 2013-2019 run as evidence this works. But they ignore the assets carried over from pre-2013 from being in the top half of the lottery for several years. Also as you mentioned, they ignore the fact acquiring Kawhi, at that cheap of a price, is like once in a generation type of probability

[Pointgod]

I might be able to help you guys out here, it makes sense if you look at the returns he got those picks.

Every 1st Round pick Masai has traded:

2017 |25th ovr [LAC]| to Orlando w/ Terrence Ross for Serge Ibaka. Selected OG Anunoby 23rd ovr.
2018 | 29th ovr.| to Brooklyn w/ Demarre Carroll as a Cap-dump. Cap space was used to resign Ibaka & Lowry to extensions.
2019 | 29th ovr.| to San Antonio w/Jak & Derozan for Kawhi Leonard and Danny Green.
2022 | 20th ovr.| to San Antonio w/ Goran Dragic for Thaddeus Young & the 33rd overall pick
2024 |8th ovr.| to San Antonio w/Khem Birch & two second for Jakob Poeltl. Selected Ja'Kobe Walter 19th ovr.
2024 | 29th ovr. [OKC]|to New Orleans w/Kira Lewis & Otto Porter Jr for Ochai Agbaji & Kelly Olynyk. Selected Ja'Kobe Walter 19th ovr.
2026 | TBD [IND]| to New Orleans w/Bruce Brown & Kelly Olynyk for Brandon Ingram

In twelve years running the org, he's traded 7 first round picks, 5 of which were in the 20's, 1 in the Top 10, and one TBD. Those first round picks turned into:

Serge Ibaka, Kawhi Leonard, Danny Green, Thaddeus Young, Jakob Poeltl, Ochai Agbaji, and Brandon Ingram.

I think looking at that list it's pretty clear why those picks were traded, and it'd be hard to argue the return hasn't been positive

It’s almost as if something changed around… 2019? Something that made trading picks make less sense. Who knows though, every transaction is definitely made in a vacuum with no effect on anything else.

Trading a horrible pick for Ochai makes a ton of sense.

The timing of the Poeltl trade was poor. But the value was good given how bad the draft class was last year. It didn’t set us back.

Only draft pick we gave up that cost us better players was the Thad trade but that was done for cap flexibility and those trades are made every year. The fact that’s seen as Masai’s worst move shows you how good he is. Presti let KD walk and traded Harden for nothing. Those are the moves that set teams back years. Not trading low value picks.

Trading a first for Thad to save on a luxury tax was idiocy. The difference between his and Dragic’s contract was 4 million. You give up a couple seconds in a trade like that not move down 13 spots out of the first round.

Poeltl was also non sensical because he was a poor fit with the existing team, was due for a raise and not lottery protecting that pick was the cherry on top of the **** sandwich of a trade.

The risk with trading a low first round pick for Ochai is that now you have to pay Ochai next offseason. And you can’t do that without going into the luxury tax so you either lose him for nothing (surprise surprise), you trade someone else to make room or you get diminishing returns in a trade like we got for Davion Mitchell while the alternative is you could have had a low cost rotation player for the next 4 years.

All of these moves add up because now we’re talking about getting Giannis or any star player we don’t have the assets to make a trade without severely damaging our depth. We could have been building a nice asset base of cheap talent especially when I’m told that Masai can draft talent from any position in the draft.

[TorontoBarneys]

The constant trading of draft picks, despite no one ever wanting to come here, and drafting being such a massive advantage for us, will never make any sense to me.

People are still stuck on the notion that if Masai did it once with the Kawhi trade, he can surely do it again. Many, many people don't seem to understand the sheer luck that went into making that championship possible. I don't even mean this in any negative way, simply making an observation, but many posters really do believe we are better off with the wheel & deal route than we are in a pure tank. Well, the choice was made for us already so here's hoping they are right, eh?

That's not what anti-TWO are saying. They are saying, and Masai follows this approach: The way to build a contender is incremental. You draft, trade and sign young players and develop their values - them when you have an abundance, you consolidate into a star player or 2. This is the approach to building a contender.

Of course they point to the 2013-2019 run as evidence this works. But they ignore the assets carried over from pre-2013 from being in the top half of the lottery for several years. Also as you mentioned, they ignore the fact acquiring Kawhi, at that cheap of a price, is like once in a generation type of probability

This strategy still relies on drafting really well, but instead of drafting in the lottery you're drafting in the late teens/early 20s and 2nd round and having to hit on each prospect makes it that much harder. Then you have to juggle your salaries and any prospect that's balling out will soon be out of their rookie scale contract and their value inevitably goes down once that new contract is signed. Ochai right now is valuable to us. Ochai at 15-20 mil per year? Not so much. etc.

If you're going to rely on drafting so much with your strategy, I don't understand the idea of not utilizing the strongest possible draft picks to your advantage lol. MLSE probably just hates tanking, I guess.

[nikster]

Van Vleet turned down 4 years at 115M heading into the season. The Rockets came and offered him 3 years at 130M. It’s literally a front offices’ job to go through all of the scenarios and game plan for it. And the other problem was that Masai’s back up solution was Dennis Schroeder who is in no way starting PG. It just goes to show you there was no plan.

Ya and then Raps reportedly offered him $120M/4 in free agency. I don't disagree it's management's job to establish possible scenarios, however everybody was shocked when he got offered the max because he wasn't viewed as a max player, the only reason Houston offered him the max is because they were below the cap floor, so they could overpay.

Well yeah they should have anticipated that. There were a couple of teams with salary cap space that could have offered a similar deal. The point is that if you weren’t willing to match an offer then you get something for him vs losing him for nothing. At least he learned his lesson with Pascal and OG.

Houston had a complete change in priorities over the course of the last season that nobody could have anticipated. They made a sudden push for competing after signign a new coach they that pushed for winners, and apparently preferrd FVV instead of Harden,

Plus the NBA just changed the rules forcing teams to reach the salary floor by the first day of the regular season. That means Houston couldn't wait for a mid season trade to absorb salary.

It was basically impossible to anticipate Houston giving him max money.

[nikster]

Masai is a great culture setter which is one of the hardest things to do as a front office. I’d also say he’s great at drafting and developing talent. Which is why it’s so freaking confusing that that he’s opted to trade draft picks over the years instead of acquiring multiple first round picks to build out a competent bench.

The constant trading of draft picks, despite no one ever wanting to come here, and drafting being such a massive advantage for us, will never make any sense to me.

People are still stuck on the notion that if Masai did it once with the Kawhi trade, he can surely do it again. Many, many people don't seem to understand the sheer luck that went into making that championship possible. I don't even mean this in any negative way, simply making an observation, but many posters really do believe we are better off with the wheel & deal route than we are in a pure tank. Well, the choice was made for us already so here's hoping they are right, eh?

Sure Kawhi was lucky at that price, but top 15 player relatively frequently become available in trade.

Meanwhile you could be a bottom 4 team for 7 straight years and only stastically expect to get the first overall pick once. The flattened lottery has made the odds so much worse. Plus Franchise players on Kawhis level only come in the top 4 of the draft once every few years, if that.

Building a contender requires luck no matter how you build. The anti tankers think it's better to be competitive and hope for a tank rather than be terrible and hope for a savior in the draft.

[DelAbbot]

People are still stuck on the notion that if Masai did it once with the Kawhi trade, he can surely do it again. Many, many people don't seem to understand the sheer luck that went into making that championship possible. I don't even mean this in any negative way, simply making an observation, but many posters really do believe we are better off with the wheel & deal route than we are in a pure tank. Well, the choice was made for us already so here's hoping they are right, eh?

That's not what anti-TWO are saying. They are saying, and Masai follows this approach: The way to build a contender is incremental. You draft, trade and sign young players and develop their values - them when you have an abundance, you consolidate into a star player or 2. This is the approach to building a contender.

Of course they point to the 2013-2019 run as evidence this works. But they ignore the assets carried over from pre-2013 from being in the top half of the lottery for several years. Also as you mentioned, they ignore the fact acquiring Kawhi, at that cheap of a price, is like once in a generation type of probability

This strategy still relies on drafting really well, but instead of drafting in the lottery you're drafting in the late teens/early 20s and 2nd round and having to hit on each prospect makes it that much harder. Then you have to juggle your salaries and any prospect that's balling out will soon be out of their rookie scale contract and their value inevitably goes down once that new contract is signed. Ochai right now is valuable to us. Ochai at 15-20 mil per year? Not so much. etc.

If you're going to rely on drafting so much with your strategy, I don't understand the idea of not utilizing the strongest possible draft picks to your advantage lol. MLSE probably just hates tanking, I guess.

We have had some bad FRP picks recent years like Flynn, Dick. Maybe Walter changes this trend

[Duffman100]

lol. Lock the tank thread only to create another tank thread.

[Raps in 4]

The constant trading of draft picks, despite no one ever wanting to come here, and drafting being such a massive advantage for us, will never make any sense to me.

People are still stuck on the notion that if Masai did it once with the Kawhi trade, he can surely do it again. Many, many people don't seem to understand the sheer luck that went into making that championship possible. I don't even mean this in any negative way, simply making an observation, but many posters really do believe we are better off with the wheel & deal route than we are in a pure tank. Well, the choice was made for us already so here's hoping they are right, eh?

Sure Kawhi was lucky at that price, but top 15 player relatively frequently become available in trade.

Meanwhile you could be a bottom 4 team for 7 straight years and only stastically expect to get the first overall pick once. The flattened lottery has made the odds so much worse. Plus Franchise players on Kawhis level only come in the top 4 of the draft once every few years, if that.

Building a contender requires luck no matter how you build. The anti tankers think it's better to be competitive and hope for a tank rather than be terrible and hope for a savior in the draft.

Elite players don't become available very often though. Since the Kawhi trade, the only other superstar to get moved has been Luka, and it was a behind-the-scenes (probably orchestrated by the NBA) trade that sent him to the Lakers with the Mavs not even contacting other teams. That's a period of seven years with no movement. And it's not like when a player becomes available, your team is guaranteed to land him (as we just saw with the aforementioned Luka trade). The teams with the best chance to land Giannis now are OKC, Houston, and SAS, three teams that traded their stars for draft picks and tanked for years to accumulate even more assets.

The odds of a player like Kawhi (final year of his contract, disgruntled, and still in his prime) becoming available, and available for relatively cheap, are infinitesimally small. The chances of that player leading you to a title in that short 1-year window you have with him are even smaller. Our 2018-19 season was the perfect storm. It's only ever happened once in the history of the NBA.