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Official Bargnani Discussion Thread

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Post#181 » by Harry Palmer » Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:43 pm

illestplaya wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



When andrea is at the top of the arc....where is the center that is guarding him standing?? probably very close to him....this clears up the paint and bosh can operate one on one vs his man and not have to worry about the opposing teams center comming over to help. Just the fact that andrea can hit the three disrupts opposing teams defences.

That is all the optimism you need


This is more of a false hope unless/until he develops a post game because, as we have seen, there is no law that states the other coach has to guard him with the other center, just because we are saying that's his position.
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Post#182 » by C.Boshly » Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:48 pm

Why doesn't Bargnani ever crouch down to jump for balls?


Everytime I see him streching for a rebound I wonder that.
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Post#183 » by illestplaya » Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:49 pm

Harry Palmer wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



This is more of a false hope unless/until he develops a post game because, as we have seen, there is no law that states the other coach has to guard him with the other center, just because we are saying that's his position.


your right...but thats going to create mis match problems with or withouth a post game....if they choose to use their small forward to guard him...that means their center is going to be gaurding our small forward...and if andrea does not shoot over him...he can swing the ball to our SF who can take advantage of this mismatch.

This ofcourse is not going to work everytime...but a mismatch increases your chanses of scoring and thats what a non-traditional center like andrea brings to the table that does not show up on the stat sheet
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Post#184 » by roy_jones_calderon » Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:49 pm

In defense of discrediting posters based on age, in a lot of these discussions, you have to look at who is speaking. Regardless of whether you agree with them or not, both CC, Harry and dagger are posters that are credible guys who are not wrapped up in a lot of what some of you are saying they are.

I can understand the discussion about Bargs' rebounding woes, and what type of problem this could create if it doesn't change. I don't think anyone expressing legit concern about Bargs rebounding is saying something that isn't a relatively obvious concern for everyone. I think it's what happens in the conveyance of the two positions of moderation that we get into trouble.
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Post#185 » by Harry Palmer » Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:50 pm

tb40 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-




Supersub can create all the threads he wants about Bargs and whatever other topic he wants as far as I'm concerned, but to me this really is of no consequence at this point in Bargs's career, as I mentioned in my previous thread, let's get him some tutoring over the summer, and then see how he has progressed next year and beyond.

If he still is a scrub rebounding wise, then SS has a thread, and we have a problem.

Simple as that.


No, I'm not saying your timeline is wrong, or your expression of it unjust, just that it's not really any more founded in anything but a personal take more than SS's or mine or anyone elses.

See, one thing you'll see from this side of the fence is that the 'just wait until' bars that keep being reset for Bargs don't really appear to be finite. It was, at one point, wait until he's starting. Wait until his second year, when he has a full offseason under his belt after experiencing NBA play. Originally it was widely suggested that his euro-pro experience would significantly reduce how much time he would take to develop. Etc.

ie, 3rd season doesn't to me seem to be any more practical than 2nd season, or starting, or whatever. And this whole 'get a coach' thing is also a bit of a MacGuffin, imo. Among other things, it presumes that he hasn't been coached yet, or that you need a certain kind of coach to coach him (which didn't apply to Bosh, somehow) or that it's normal for players to need that to develop, etc.

Again, you are entitled to your opinion, I just hope you can understand why to me it just seems like the latest in an ongoing line of reset parameters which should exist before we take anything solid from what we're actually seeing. And you COULD be right. This one COULD be the one that actually ends up applying. But I don't see any more reason to assume that than any of the others, if you get me.
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Post#186 » by Reignman » Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:53 pm

roy_jones_calderon wrote:In defense of discrediting posters based on age, in a lot of these discussions, you have to look at who is speaking. Regardless of whether you agree with them or not, both CC and dagger are posters that are credible guys who are not wrapped up in a lot of what some of you are saying they are.

I can understand the discussion about Bargs' rebounding woes, and what type of problem this could create if it doesn't change. I don't think anyone expressing legit concern about Bargs rebounding is saying something that isn't a relatively obvious concern for everyone. I think it's what happens in the conveyance of the two positions of moderation that we get into trouble.


RJC, you've followed Bargs' development intensively. What did you think of his training program last off season? and do you think it was adequate in Bargs' case.

Also, do you think his major development will take place during the season or during next off season when he doesn't have any commitments to the NT?
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Post#187 » by splayed » Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:57 pm

tb40 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-




Supersub can create all the threads he wants about Bargs and whatever other topic he wants as far as I'm concerned, but to me this really is of no consequence at this point in Bargs's career, as I mentioned in my previous thread, let's get him some tutoring over the summer, and then see how he has progressed next year and beyond.

If he still is a scrub rebounding wise, then SS has a thread, and we have a problem.

Simple as that.


For a guy who sees no consequence in the thread's topic, you're in quite a huff over it. When others see no consequence, they tend to dismiss things rather than passionately argue inconsequentiality. Perhaps you really do, deep down, see a consequence?

EDIT: Here's my opinion, so my post isn't just critiquing others. I think a better debate is to accept Bargnani will not become a good rebounder (adequate, maybe, or slightly below average would be a good case scenario).

The debate then becomes, do the Raptors decide to develop his strengths - scoring mismatches - and try to adapt the team to compensate for his weaknesses or do the Raptors try to insist their square peg fit into a round hole, as the team seems to be doing now? Or, third option, do the Raptors make personnel changes? I think this is a much more important debate for the team's future success than how bad a rebounder Bargnani really is (or will be). Even his most ardent supporters know he will never be good in the absolute sense of the word, though most think he will get better.
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Post#188 » by Harry Palmer » Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:58 pm

illestplaya wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



your right...but thats going to create mis match problems with or withouth a post game....if they choose to use their small forward to guard him...that means their center is going to be gaurding our small forward...and if andrea does not shoot over him...he can swing the ball to our SF who can take advantage of this mismatch.

This ofcourse is not going to work everytime...but a mismatch increases your chanses of scoring and thats what a non-traditional center like andrea brings to the table that does not show up on the stat sheet


I agree that that can occasionally happen, but it's a trade-off that almost any other coach will take over time. If you offer 2 coaches interior control vs. perim control, watch and see them fight over who gets the former. It just comes with so many more advantages that the latter does not.

That's why the positions have remained as they have, and why despite all the experiments, no small ball team has ever won a championship. Because at the end of the day, the team that controls the paint will win more consistently when it matters.
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Post#189 » by Tha Cynic » Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:00 pm

It's amazing that the Bargnani apologists have now turned this personal against Supersub15. As a fan I appreciate the stats he posts, because I can't be bothered to go look for them or work them out. So all the rest of you who don't like these things need to shut up and stay out. There are some people who actually want to see these.

I also think it's about time we put some of the blame on BC. He still hasn't addressed what our biggest problems were going into the offseason last season. Rebounding and creativity from our wings are still pathetic.

I get the impression that BC was so infatuated with Bargnani going back to his Phoenix days that Bargnani had an advantage over other players in the draft when it came to our pick. I hope this is not the case, but pretty much everyone had at least 2 other players ranked ahead of Bargnani in that draft. The rankings only changed after BC worked his magic to put Bargnani's potential in everyone's head. Right now things are looking very bad. I think people have a right to be concerned.

All these complaints about negative threads is pathetic. I've noticed a trend on this board. No one posts in the positive threads! So what's the point in creating them? I've seen posters post positive stats about Bosh, but does anyone post in them? No. So what's the point of starting these positive threads? Maybe some of you who complain about these negative threads should go start some positive ones.

In these threads we're talking about the freakin #1 pick being terrible. Obviously it's newsworthy. His improvement could be the difference between us being contenders and a middle of the pack team. I've always thought the two main ingredients of this team are Bosh and TJ. Without these two playing together, this team isn't going to go very far. Everyone else is the supporting cast, including Calderon. But what Bargnani can become is the x-factor, that guy who gives the extra push to put us on top. Right now it's not happening.
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Post#190 » by illestplaya » Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:03 pm

Harry Palmer wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



I agree that that can occasionally happen, but it's a trade-off that almost any other coach will take over time. If you offer 2 coaches interior control vs. perim control, watch and see them fight over who gets the former. It just comes with so many more advantages that the latter does not.

That's why the positions have remained as they have, and why despite all the experiments, no small ball team has ever won a championship. Because at the end of the day, the team that controls the paint will win more consistently when it matters.


I think you misunderstood what i was saying...i agree that having a dominate big man is more important than a dominat 3 point shooter, what i was saying is that andrea being able to shoot the 3 pointer opens up perimineter and inside looks for his team mates. It will open up the paint if the center comes out the guard him...and it can even open up the paint if the SF comes out to guard him...beacuse our wing man should not have too much trouble dribbling around oppsoing bigger and slower centers.

At the end of the day when you looking at the stat sheet, you see andrea with 8 points and 2 rebounds, alot of people dont realize that the team scored another 6 points jus because of his presence on the count and the mismatch problem he is creating.
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Post#191 » by Harry Palmer » Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:05 pm

Tha Cynic wrote:It's amazing that the Bargnani apologists have now turned this personal against Supersub15.


While I agree it's immature and unproductive, I certainly don't see it as surprising. Nothing in my experience would suggest that unpopular/negative views will ever generate a different reaction. My God, we've seen the Doc called negative at times.

Basically, if Bargs/whoever they are supporting is playing well, you will often see less need to get personal, and almost no discussion about how we shouldn't be talking about Bargs/whoever.

But failing that, it will usually devolve to a combination of personal attacks and 'this shouldn't be discussed'. That's sort of the standard. At least in my experience. There will be a different rationale given to why each and every 'negative' poster of any prominence is attacked, but the certainty is that they will be attacked.
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Post#192 » by Harry Palmer » Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:07 pm

illestplaya wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



I think you misunderstood what i was saying...i agree that having a dominate big man is more important than a dominat 3 point shooter, what i was saying is that andrea being able to shoot the 3 pointer opens up perimineter and inside looks for his team mates. It will open up the paint if the center comes out the guard him...and it can even open up the paint if the SF comes out to guard him...beacuse our wing man should not have too much trouble dribbling around oppsoing bigger and slower centers.

At the end of the day when you looking at the stat sheet, you see andrea with 8 points and 2 rebounds, alot of people dont realize that the team scored another 6 points jus because of his presence on the count and the mismatch problem he is creating.


No, I think I understood you, and you misunderstood me. I got what you were saying. I was saying the effect you think he will cause if they switch...ie, their center on our swing...is one most teams will take if forced to choose. For the reasons I mentioned.
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Post#193 » by C Court » Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:07 pm

roy_jones_calderon wrote:In defense of discrediting posters based on age, in a lot of these discussions, you have to look at who is speaking. Regardless of whether you agree with them or not, both CC, Harry and dagger are posters that are credible guys who are not wrapped up in a lot of what some of you are saying they are.

I can understand the discussion about Bargs' rebounding woes, and what type of problem this could create if it doesn't change. I don't think anyone expressing legit concern about Bargs rebounding is saying something that isn't a relatively obvious concern for everyone. I think it's what happens in the conveyance of the two positions of moderation that we get into trouble.


Roy ... one thing that's for certain, the older I get, the quicker I forget!

You're right, everyone sees that Bargnani's rebounding is a legit concern.

What it comes down to is whether we are prepared to write the guy off as a bust now or are we're prepared to allow him more time to develop.
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Post#194 » by roy_jones_calderon » Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:09 pm

Reignman wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



RJC, you've followed Bargs' development intensively. What did you think of his training program last off season? and do you think it was adequate in Bargs' case.

Also, do you think his major development will take place during the season or during next off season when he doesn't have any commitments to the NT?


I think the summer could've been much better, but I also believe NBA basketball is NBA basketball- and there's nothing like being in the fire to have to come up with solutions to problems in your game. I think that's a large part of why he was re-inserted into the starting line-up, recently.

In terms of his rebounding, specifically...

What I would want to do is talk about what I've seen Bargs do when he's been at his most effective rebounding. I know that's a bit of an oxymoron, but I do believe it can help us to frame his progression.

I believe that eventually we will see a player that able to utilize his exact weakness right now, overall defensive awareness, to put himself into positions on the floor where he can use his body to grab defensive rebounds.

There's a willingness aspect, and I think for Bargs it requires him to go inside more offensively. If he can work more offensively in the post, I think that he'll eventually start to hang back defensively and start playing around the basket more consciously.

Do I think he'll be an athletic, fast reacting athlete down there? No. I don't think he's going to be more than a competant defensive rebounder. But I do think he'll get there for a variety of reasons I've outlined before (which would require a whole other post) but the point being that there are a few simple things that could really help him remove this as a major problem for him when he's on the floor.

I believe that even if it doesn't happen for a while, there's so much expectation on him to improve this area of his game that eventually it will either make or break him, in terms of whether he's able to take his game to the next level.

It has certainly not been pretty. But I'm not as pessimistic as the lower 30% of the board, in terms of having a firm belief that he's going to be one of the NBA's worst rebounders into the future.


*edit: by the way, this debate is nothing new to me. I was having this discussion about rebounding with JG off the record long before Bargs was drafted. He was closer to the skeptic side on his defensive and rebounding ability, obviously this is a core issue with valuing Bargnani.
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Post#195 » by Platapie » Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:10 pm

And you would also be the first to jump on someone for repetitive topics if Bargs were to run of 10 straight 30 pt games, right? Like by the 6th, you'd be all 'Look, we KNOW he can shoot. Why do you need to keep harping on it? STFU, dufus!', etc.


First of all, surely you can concede that people would enjoy hearing about a positive more than a negative, I.E being told I shouldn't be posting more on RealGM every day would get tiring a lot faster than being told how good those posts are on a daily basis. Second, yes, actually, I would get annoyed if a topic was overly repetitive and a thread popped up every day mentioning how great X player was for the same reason, every time.

The problem is, at least in my eyes, that there is almost 0 positivity on this board as a whole. This thread, the 3 pt defensive issues, the post game threads. It's all littered with crap about how the team either sucks in a loss, or how they got lucky/need to play better in a win.

It is a depressing atmosphere, much moreso than when the team was actually terrible. Like I said, it would be akin to reading about Wallace's terrible FT shooting on a daily basis. Or reading about why X point guard should start.. oh wait..
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Post#196 » by TheDoctor » Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:11 pm

Harry Palmer wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



I think, and have pretty much always thought, that those hoping for him to turn weaknesses into strengths in areas like rebounding and post play are deceiving themselves. Those are not areas where there is much history, at all, to suggest that significant development can happen at Bargs' age.

BUT, the hope that does exist is in his strength, ie scoring. I think he has shown enough to warrant an opinion that it's not impossible that he could become an important enough offensive player to offset many of his weaknesses. I personally think that is next to impossible as a center, in that his weaknesses are in areas which are central to the position, pardon the pun, but just as a basketball player, meaning forward of some description, I think you could have a go to guy on offense who might not contribute much else, but is good enough to allow you to have other guys whose strengths are the other areas compensate as a team.

I think it will take a lot, and as I said, not at the 5, but I do think he has that kind of scoring potential.

Hope that helps some.


To take this line of thinking a little further...

How much better is Dirk as an NBA C than Bargs?

Dirk is certainly a better rebounder now - and was already better rebounder in year 2 (and to ward off the - compare the teammates, his 2nd year he shared the court with some solid rebounders like Rodman (half-season), Shawn Bradley, Finley as a rebounding swingman, and even Cedric Ceballos and Gary Trent chipping in. Dirk was one of 5 rebounders getting 6+/game that season.)

Defensively I'd say Dirk is probably worse, straight up, as a defensive C, even now. Which is why they got 2 big defensive Cs to play him next to. But even still, while he would be giving away a lot in that matchup, he'd be impacting the game significantly at the other, so that he's still likely a net positive.

Like Harry, I've seen enough signs that Bargs can be a dynamic offensive player - possibly an ice in the veins go to scorer - but a lot of deficiencies when you consider him as a classic C. But developing him to become more of a Dirk-like 4... that could be an intriguing proposition for someone.

Which is why a 7' skilled Bargs is still a store of value, even if he's not developing the way we'd like. Someone will think we're misusing him, like the posters here that make a lot of excuses for him - which means you get something significant in return.
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Post#197 » by deknow » Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:17 pm

Harry Palmer wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Well, actually, there is. When it crosses the line to saying 'this shouldn't be done here', that's for Mods to determine. This isn't a forum for discussing other posters, but for discussing NBA teams and players. Deciding what topics should and should not be discussed, and attacking posters for crossing that line is back-seat moderation, a clearly designated no-no.

That is why we say 'attack the post, not the poster.'

And, again, unless you have this weird need to control how others think/behave, how does the presence of a thread whose topic you don't want to discuss harm you if you don't read it?

Seriously, give this some thought. How does it possibly harm you in any way, shape, or form, other than your wanting to control it's existence? And if the latter, isn't than an issue you should maybe reconsider?


and around and around we go. There is no end to attacking the same post over and over again I tried that with TJ/Jose it is useless. Attacking the poster is commonplace around here I only do as others do it seems to be more than moderately excepted around here. But yes Mister Moderator if you think I should stop I will.

I just hope its made clear throughout the board and doesn't show any favouritism to certain posters who have the same opinion.

Nobody says its caused me any harm I am simply pointing out how repetitive and one-sided this board has become. I am not the first nor will I be the last for every supersob "Bargnani is the universes worst rebounder' there will be a deknow who will make it known this is obvious and repetitive.

Is it okay if I start a thread called "this is how you Spell Andrea Bargnani's name"? it is common knowledge yet some people still spell it Bragnaini. I could update it everyday and show the history of how his name came to be and also compare it to others who have also had their name's spelt incorrectly.

At least it will be new!
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Post#198 » by Harry Palmer » Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:20 pm

Platapie wrote:
And you would also be the first to jump on someone for repetitive topics if Bargs were to run of 10 straight 30 pt games, right? Like by the 6th, you'd be all 'Look, we KNOW he can shoot. Why do you need to keep harping on it? STFU, dufus!', etc.


First of all, surely you can concede that people would enjoy hearing about a positive more than a negative


Absolutely. I just don't see the connection between what people will enjoyed and what should be allowed/discussed. Truth is truth, to be trite about it.

I.E being told I shouldn't be posting more on RealGM every day would get tiring a lot faster than being told how good those posts are on a daily basis.


Lol, I'm weird in that respect, in that I tend to notice the people arguing with me more than those agreeing with me, but that's just my love of debate. In general I agree, but make the same qualification as above.

Second, yes, actually, I would get annoyed if a topic was overly repetitive and a thread popped up every day mentioning how great X player was for the same reason, every time.


Well then this must be a really frustrating place for you, either way. But I will say this: if/when Bargs does score very well on a consistent basis, be prepared to be annoyed.

The problem is, at least in my eyes, that there is almost 0 positivity on this board as a whole.


I know that that's the perception some in here have. I happen to completely disagree. To support my position is that our board is almost always cited by other boards as being THE unrealistic homers of the site, or at least competing with the Knicks fans. I am sure people who disagree with that take have an explanation...ie, a handfull who post a lot make the others look like that, etc. But I doubt it's an explanation that wouldn't work against your perception either. I do know that if you were to sample a thread about Bargs from his stellar 11/4 rookie campaign, and look at that season with objective eyes, ie 11/4, you might not think negativity was the norm.

Or if you consider how consistently in here it is assumed that the intangibles are in our favor, and the numbers are our basement and other teams/players' ceiling.

Or any number of other examples.

What I DO think you see is a tendency to overreact in either direction at times. ie, bi-polar. But to support my point would be this: many around here seem to think bi-polar means negative, not existing at BOTH extremes. That misconception imo speaks volumes.

And lastly, while I am sure there are exceptions, by and large you don't see the critical posters seeking to define the right and wrong way to be a fan according with their views anywhere near as much as the reverse. What orthodoxy exists in here is, imo, almost entirely along the lines of those who believe that a 'real' fan is/should be positive like they are.
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Post#199 » by Prop » Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:21 pm

Centre Court wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



What it comes down to is whether we are prepared to write the guy off as a bust now or are we're prepared to allow him more time to develop.


my problem with bargs is that he just simply wasn't the right choice for this team, even if he does develop into a good, consistent player.

a 7 footer who's main strength is perimeter shooting doesn't address the problems the raps have as a team. poor rebounding, weak interior D, no swing men that can get to the bucket themselves, not enough ft attempts, etc etc.

my 2 cents.
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Post#200 » by hermster12 » Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:26 pm

Prop wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



my problem with bargs is that he just simply wasn't the right choice for this team, even if he does develop into a good, consistent player.

a 7 footer who's main strength is perimeter shooting doesn't address the problems the raps have as a team. poor rebounding, weak interior D, no swing men that can get to the bucket themselves, not enough ft attempts, etc etc.

my 2 cents.


Generally, you draft the best player in the draft, and THEN worry about "fit". Worse case scenario is that he doesn't fit, but still has tremendous value to another team who we can trade with.
We tried the 'draft for need' approach with Araujo, and look how that turned out.
And as long as Bosh's D continues to improve (which it, finally, has this year) and we can eventually score a hardnosed defensive swingman, I see no reason why he can't be a major contributor.
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