Tank World Order V (Rise of the Phoenix)

[SFour]

looks like the tank is dead

quoting this for future

One win and everyone says the tank is dead

This team is 7-15 for a reason. The Pacers are a sorry defensive team. This team can be .500 against mid teams. When it comes the BOS and OKCs there's a clear difference. Not to mention Raps are still sorry on the road (1-11 record)

A 7-9 position in the lottery with these new odds will play in our favour.

that reason is injuries...ignoring that context is being disingenuous. They're already at $19.6 million injured cash totals after only 22 games, for comparison last season after 82 games they finished at $25.5 million.

The tank is only alive if injuries continue, everyone knows that.

[Johnny Bball]

2nd most games lost to injury, Barnes is back playing, their yearly California road trip is already finished, they played 12 on the road and 10 at home, have been in most every game, and they are 5-5 in their last 10, after a 2-10 start.

All while playing 4 rookies significant minutes. And playing them deep into the 4th quarters.

This team might not be as bad as some thought, and bottom 8-12 seems much more likely than bottom 4 right now.

Next three games are pretty important to any real tank.

[YogurtProducer]

2nd most games lost to injury, Barnes is back playing, their yearly California road trip is already finished, they played 12 on the road and 10 at home, have been in most every game, and they are 5-5 in their last 10, after a 2-10 start.

All while playing 4 rookies significant minutes. And playing them deep into the 4th quarters.

This team might not be as bad as some thought, and bottom 8-12 seems much more likely than bottom 4 right now.

Next three games are pretty important to any real tank.

And your post doesn’t even mention IQ has played like 60 minutes, and Brown/Olynyk have played 0.

I said before the year we were too good to tank if healthy and got absolutely flamed by the regulars in this thread.

[Johnny Bball]

2nd most games lost to injury, Barnes is back playing, their yearly California road trip is already finished, they played 12 on the road and 10 at home, have been in most every game, and they are 5-5 in their last 10, after a 2-10 start.

All while playing 4 rookies significant minutes. And playing them deep into the 4th quarters.

This team might not be as bad as some thought, and bottom 8-12 seems much more likely than bottom 4 right now.

Next three games are pretty important to any real tank.

And your post doesn’t even mention IQ has played like 60 minutes, and Brown/Olynyk have played 0.

I said before the year we were too good to tank if healthy and got absolutely flamed by the regulars in this thread.

Well, it says 2nd most injuries. I don't know that this team is too good to tank since it can and will play rookies/young guys and lose.

I don't know that it can tank to the bottom with Barnes. 1) because he's good 2) because you can't be obvious and undercut winning with him around, like some suggestions here.

[YogurtProducer]

2nd most games lost to injury, Barnes is back playing, their yearly California road trip is already finished, they played 12 on the road and 10 at home, have been in most every game, and they are 5-5 in their last 10, after a 2-10 start.

All while playing 4 rookies significant minutes. And playing them deep into the 4th quarters.

This team might not be as bad as some thought, and bottom 8-12 seems much more likely than bottom 4 right now.

Next three games are pretty important to any real tank.

And your post doesn’t even mention IQ has played like 60 minutes, and Brown/Olynyk have played 0.

I said before the year we were too good to tank if healthy and got absolutely flamed by the regulars in this thread.

Well, it says 2nd most injuries. I don't know that this team is too good to tank since it can and will play rookies/young guys and lose.

I don't know that it can tank to the bottom with Barnes. 1) because he's good 2) because you can't be obvious and undercut winning with him around, like some suggestions here.

Agreed.

We are a team currently down 4 players, and our bench is still holding their own and even outperforming other benches some nights. Depth was supposed to be bad this year, and now it looks like a strength thats only going to get stronger once our bench is healthy. ASsuming we start IQ/Agbaji/RJ/Barnes/Poeltl, bringing Davion/Walter/Dick/Brown/Mogbo/Olynyk off the bench is also going to win us games. In the regular season, depth simply wins a lot of matchups.

That is why I think we are to good to truly tank. And then when you add in the Barnes leap, and RJ averaging 24.6/6.3/5.4 on 61TS% when he plays with Barnes, and then add in IQ/Dick to bring the shooting I just cant see us finishing in the bottom 5.

I for one would love a top 5 draft pick and if we get "unlucky" with some injuries then sure, I am all for it, but if the team is healthy they are simply going to win games, and IDK how you can gut the team without giving them a chance. Doing that is just a gut shot to guys like Scottie who likely want to prove right now they can lead a team, and if we take that away before he can even show us? That could have negative long term repercussions3

Edit: More thoughts. I am interested to see what happens if/when we ever have all our guys available. How do you choose who to play? We literally have about 14 guys who you can convince yourself deserve minutes now

IQ / Davion / Shead
Agbaji / Dick / Walter
RJ / Brown / Battle
Barnes / Mogbo / Boucher
Poeltl / Olynyk

Even Fernando lately has looked okay.

The obvious moves are a Boucher trade, and Shead IMO has not been good enough and he can go to the G-League. But that is still 12 guys.

[Pointgod]

Trade Poeltl, end the madness.

Agreed what are we doing here?

we tank for real with 15-game losing streak => end up with no FRP

we have our FRP in a top heavy draft => can't tank properly

mid

Best chance for this team to add a blue chip prospect and we’re going to blow it to gun for the play in lmao

[Los_29]

Agreed what are we doing here?

we tank for real with 15-game losing streak => end up with no FRP

we have our FRP in a top heavy draft => can't tank properly

mid

Best chance for this team to add a blue chip prospect and we’re going to blow it to gun for the play in lmao

They aren’t even going for it. Tons of injuries, their two oldest players haven’t played and their young guys are getting the majority of the minutes.

[Duffman100]

we tank for real with 15-game losing streak => end up with no FRP

we have our FRP in a top heavy draft => can't tank properly

mid

Best chance for this team to add a blue chip prospect and we’re going to blow it to gun for the play in lmao

They aren’t even going for it. Tons of injuries, their two oldest players haven’t played and their young guys are getting the majority of the minutes.

Yeah again, it feels like they're just sort of 'playing' and letting the chips fall as they do.

They aren't going for it, nor are they outright Wizard esque tanking.

[MiamiSPX]

Best chance for this team to add a blue chip prospect and we’re going to blow it to gun for the play in lmao

They aren’t even going for it. Tons of injuries, their two oldest players haven’t played and their young guys are getting the majority of the minutes.

Yeah again, it feels like they're just sort of 'playing' and letting the chips fall as they do.

They aren't going for it, nor are they outright Wizard esque tanking.

“Oh no, the guy we are pining our hopes on is, um, leading us to wins, paired with a 24-year old sidekick. All the young newcomers are contributing. This sucks!”

I’m all in on the tank (if it happens) but if these guys make it to play-in territory due to some extended, unexpected run that is led by Scottie, how can anyone be mad at that?

[Tripod]

And your post doesn’t even mention IQ has played like 60 minutes, and Brown/Olynyk have played 0.

I said before the year we were too good to tank if healthy and got absolutely flamed by the regulars in this thread.

Well, it says 2nd most injuries. I don't know that this team is too good to tank since it can and will play rookies/young guys and lose.

I don't know that it can tank to the bottom with Barnes. 1) because he's good 2) because you can't be obvious and undercut winning with him around, like some suggestions here.

Agreed.

We are a team currently down 4 players, and our bench is still holding their own and even outperforming other benches some nights. Depth was supposed to be bad this year, and now it looks like a strength thats only going to get stronger once our bench is healthy. ASsuming we start IQ/Agbaji/RJ/Barnes/Poeltl, bringing Davion/Walter/Dick/Brown/Mogbo/Olynyk off the bench is also going to win us games. In the regular season, depth simply wins a lot of matchups.

That is why I think we are to good to truly tank. And then when you add in the Barnes leap, and RJ averaging 24.6/6.3/5.4 on 61TS% when he plays with Barnes, and then add in IQ/Dick to bring the shooting I just cant see us finishing in the bottom 5.

I for one would love a top 5 draft pick and if we get "unlucky" with some injuries then sure, I am all for it, but if the team is healthy they are simply going to win games, and IDK how you can gut the team without giving them a chance. Doing that is just a gut shot to guys like Scottie who likely want to prove right now they can lead a team, and if we take that away before he can even show us? That could have negative long term repercussions3

Edit: More thoughts. I am interested to see what happens if/when we ever have all our guys available. How do you choose who to play? We literally have about 14 guys who you can convince yourself deserve minutes now

IQ / Davion / Shead
Agbaji / Dick / Walter
RJ / Brown / Battle
Barnes / Mogbo / Boucher
Poeltl / Olynyk

Even Fernando lately has looked okay.

The obvious moves are a Boucher trade, and Shead IMO has not been good enough and he can go to the G-League. But that is still 12 guys.

I think that's where Masai has to look at the whole picture.

Trade Brown...roster doesn't change
Trade Boucher...when KO is back...upgrade
Trade Davion...when IQ us back...upgrade

So we can still add futures for our expirings while not dramatically changing things. And we are still going to get roster players back in those deals so someone might be playable from that. So we could still move guys like Shead, Mogbo, Battle...even Walter, down to 905 if we want so they can get more reps.

Barnes IQ RJ Ochai Yak
Dick, Walter, KO, Battle, Bruno, Mogbo, Shead
Plus who we get back in trades

Still lots of playable depth. Nice "problem" to have for once.

So yeah, we can make moves to help our future without hurting the current. And given our depth and current upcoming picks, I see us adding 2027 and28btype picking to try and keep the pipeline coming.

[YogurtProducer]

Best chance for this team to add a blue chip prospect and we’re going to blow it to gun for the play in lmao

They aren’t even going for it. Tons of injuries, their two oldest players haven’t played and their young guys are getting the majority of the minutes.

Yeah again, it feels like they're just sort of 'playing' and letting the chips fall as they do.

They aren't going for it, nor are they outright Wizard esque tanking.

Our coach literally didnt call a timeout during like a 22-4 run or whatever it was last night.

Really doesn't scream "win at all costs"

[Johnny Bball]

Best chance for this team to add a blue chip prospect and we’re going to blow it to gun for the play in lmao

They aren’t even going for it. Tons of injuries, their two oldest players haven’t played and their young guys are getting the majority of the minutes.

Yeah again, it feels like they're just sort of 'playing' and letting the chips fall as they do.

They aren't going for it, nor are they outright Wizard esque tanking.

Again, I don't understands why this is so hard, but if you are obvious about undercutting your players, they are going to revolt and leave first chance. Like not playing them, cutting stars minutes way back, trading away your only centre in December, these are all too obvious. If its March and the team is out of it, then nobody will argue blatant tanking.

Even the wizards took two years to get this bad, and it involved trading away any real talent including 23 year olds, they literally have no player they can piss off.

[Duffman100]

They aren’t even going for it. Tons of injuries, their two oldest players haven’t played and their young guys are getting the majority of the minutes.

Yeah again, it feels like they're just sort of 'playing' and letting the chips fall as they do.

They aren't going for it, nor are they outright Wizard esque tanking.

Our coach literally didnt call a timeout during like a 22-4 run or whatever it was last night.

Really doesn't scream "win at all costs"

He also insisted on playing a Davion / Boucher duo for an extended period in the 3rd/4th which is when we lost our lead.

[Johnny Bball]

Yeah again, it feels like they're just sort of 'playing' and letting the chips fall as they do.

They aren't going for it, nor are they outright Wizard esque tanking.

Our coach literally didnt call a timeout during like a 22-4 run or whatever it was last night.

Really doesn't scream "win at all costs"

He also insisted on playing a Davion / Boucher duo for an extended period in the 3rd/4th which is when we lost our lead.

Boucher letting his man beat him by 20 feet for an open dunk would normally buy a player a seat on the bench.

[OakleyDokely]

They aren’t even going for it. Tons of injuries, their two oldest players haven’t played and their young guys are getting the majority of the minutes.

Yeah again, it feels like they're just sort of 'playing' and letting the chips fall as they do.

They aren't going for it, nor are they outright Wizard esque tanking.

“Oh no, the guy we are pining our hopes on is, um, leading us to wins, paired with a 24-year old sidekick. All the young newcomers are contributing. This sucks!”

I’m all in on the tank (if it happens) but if these guys make it to play-in territory due to some extended, unexpected run that is led by Scottie, how can anyone be mad at that?

yeah, it would be like cheering against those early 'we the north' years. If it's the young guys who are driving the the success (especially Barnes, RJ, IQ, Dick and the rooks), that's only a good thing.

That being said, this team still isn't going to win that many games. They should still have a good pick this year because they started off with so many losses.

[Duffman100]

Our coach literally didnt call a timeout during like a 22-4 run or whatever it was last night.

Really doesn't scream "win at all costs"

He also insisted on playing a Davion / Boucher duo for an extended period in the 3rd/4th which is when we lost our lead.

Boucher letting his man beat him by 20 feet for an open dunk would normally buy a player a seat on the bench.

yeah there was a 3rd quarter moment where Boucher took a terrible 3, Davion made a dumb turnover, Boucher didn't get back on D, and then Boucher let someone drive right by him.

It caused a 6-0 run in like a 45 second sequence. Both should have been pulled immediately.

[Duffman100]

They aren’t even going for it. Tons of injuries, their two oldest players haven’t played and their young guys are getting the majority of the minutes.

Yeah again, it feels like they're just sort of 'playing' and letting the chips fall as they do.

They aren't going for it, nor are they outright Wizard esque tanking.

“Oh no, the guy we are pining our hopes on is, um, leading us to wins, paired with a 24-year old sidekick. All the young newcomers are contributing. This sucks!”

I’m all in on the tank (if it happens) but if these guys make it to play-in territory due to some extended, unexpected run that is led by Scottie, how can anyone be mad at that?

This needs to be framed and pinned.

It's not like the Siakam/FVV where you had your aging 'stars' leading you to 40 wins and it was like 'what's the point'?

These are your <24 year old guys (Barnes, Barret, Ochai) etc, leading you to wins.

[Scase]

Yup. I'd be shocked if they didn't (minus major trades or a Yak injury)

So we've gone 5-14 to start the year, and you expect us to play at minimum 26-36, which is a .426 win rate. We barely managed that win rate over a full season with a very healthy lineup of FVV/OG/Scottie/Siakam, but you think this lineup can manage it?

I applaud the optimism, but you might want to take a gander at the schedule for rest of the year.

Still questioning my math?

Yup, beating a couple bad teams is not like it wasn't already expected.

[Scase]

They aren’t even going for it. Tons of injuries, their two oldest players haven’t played and their young guys are getting the majority of the minutes.

Yeah again, it feels like they're just sort of 'playing' and letting the chips fall as they do.

They aren't going for it, nor are they outright Wizard esque tanking.

“Oh no, the guy we are pining our hopes on is, um, leading us to wins, paired with a 24-year old sidekick. All the young newcomers are contributing. This sucks!”

I’m all in on the tank (if it happens) but if these guys make it to play-in territory due to some extended, unexpected run that is led by Scottie, how can anyone be mad at that?

The issue I have, is that there is nothing impressive, or even promising about making the play in with the current state of the east. A .409 record gets you in the playoffs right now, that is not something promising for the future, that is fools gold.

[Duffman100]

Yeah again, it feels like they're just sort of 'playing' and letting the chips fall as they do.

They aren't going for it, nor are they outright Wizard esque tanking.

“Oh no, the guy we are pining our hopes on is, um, leading us to wins, paired with a 24-year old sidekick. All the young newcomers are contributing. This sucks!”

I’m all in on the tank (if it happens) but if these guys make it to play-in territory due to some extended, unexpected run that is led by Scottie, how can anyone be mad at that?

The issue I have, is that there is nothing impressive, or even promising about making the play in with the current state of the east. A .409 record gets you in the playoffs right now, that is not something promising for the future, that is fools gold.

What is impressive is how competitive we've been against good teams considering how injured we've been. It's not all seen through a single lens of wins in the east.