Tank World Order (6.0)

[NBA Sheady]

But we didn’t lose any of them because of the city or the country. We lost them because of terrible management OR they were traded.

We were a very dysfunctional franchise. This is well documented. The idea that players don’t want to play here is just simply not true which is why we’ve had zero problems re-signing players the past 10 years. Only exception was Kawhi who always seen as a rental and wanted to play in ONE and only one city and that was LA, his hometown.

If players wanted to play here we wouldn't be constantly signing bottom-of-the-barrel and mid-tier free agents.

Things are definitely better though. I think we at least have a slight chance of retaining Scottie.

You said players don't want to live in Canada. That clearly hasn't been the case the past decade as we've been able to re-sign all of our key players. Obviously the one exception is Kawhi who was seen as a rental from day 1 and notified the Spurs that he only wanted to play in LA.

And clearly we have an excellent chance of re-signing Scottie given how things have gone the past decade. Not even worried about that. Winning is important though, if we spend a couple years in the lottery then I wouldn't be that confident.

"If players wanted to play here we wouldn't be constantly signing bottom-of-the-barrel and mid-tier free agents."

What?

What? LMFAO

Name a top free agent we've signed.

[PhilBlackson]

So u want next to zero lottery odds... Where teams at the end of the lottery NEVER jump up to top 4 or anything like that, over real tangible playoff experience? Because thats what ur saying. Ur admitting theres essentially no difference between picking 13th and 14th, but u want those minuscule lottery odds that historically just dont work out. That...makes sense...?

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Woah there.. I prefer the playoff route. I'm a fan of the game and want to see 4 extra games even if they are losses. I'm just saying.. there is a 0% chance of moving to the top 4 when you make the playoffs. And there is a chance (although small) of moving up when you don't.

And that's the debate here. And it's an interesting one. The NBA has made it where being a 1st round exit team is worse than missing the playoffs, because of the lottery system. The lottery system needs to be revamped.

Again, just 3 years ago, the Lakers moved up from 11 to 4. And were 10th in the conference.. so would have been a play-in team if that existed back then.

Its so rare man. Especially in that 13-14 range we would be in. They simply dont jump. Maybe once in a blue moon. But not even then. I don't think its worse to be a playoff team than a late lottery team unless you're always and perpetually in that position. If you're a young team that playoff experience is invaluable and definitely worth being down literally one or 2 spots in the draft. Like we r talking pick 15, its not a discussion to be had at all.

Maybe we make the play in tournament and lose. Who knows. We keep lottery spot, and we also get SOME postseason experience.

I just rhymed off a long list of all-star calibre players (or close to or developing into) in the last decade that were taken in that 10-14 range so that's what most people are weighing...

Give arguably the best scouting department to be in that position to spot those kinds of players that slip into that 10-14 range vs a 1s round exit. What do people think has a greater long term effect??

Why would barely just missing a single post season suddenly throw this franchise into disarray?! lol What would that single post season more (being that we would MORE than likely be in the Playoffs the following year) do different for the team long term?! Maybe they put up a better fight in the 1st round the following year?! Some of you are acting like if the team didn't make the Playoffs this year despite a litany of reasons/excuses between health & covid that suddenly it would "hurt" the winning culture, as if guys like Fred, Pascal, OG are suddenly gonna give up because they didn't make it that single season and the whole thing is shot to hell lol pleeeease. They'll come back just as, if not MORE determined than ever to make it back..

On the flipside, we do stay in the 11-14 range, the elite scouting department does find it's "Booker, Mitchell, LaVine, Thompson" etc before they come off the board (or we fluke into the top 4, not likely but still an actual possibility)...what's better long term?? Took a 1st round beatdown or potentially added another young star for the next near decade and drastically increased the team's ceiling and made the Playoffs the following year?! No one is saying it's a sure thing but given how excellent the scouting department is, it's all about just giving them better ODDS to do so. For some barely missing a Playoffs to in all likelihood be in it the very next season vs a 1st rd beatdown is a small price to pay for would could completely alter the trajectory of the franchise for the next 8 years...

To each their own, we all want the team to reach the same height but yet again it's just a difference in opinion of how we think the team can get there.

[Madhouse]

If players wanted to play here we wouldn't be constantly signing bottom-of-the-barrel and mid-tier free agents.

Things are definitely better though. I think we at least have a slight chance of retaining Scottie.

thats 8 years down the road anyway

Man, I wish he had 7 years left on his deal. Hopefully what you're implying is how it plays out.

It always plays out that way. Now, unrestricted free agency is a different beast and unpredictable but this is far away.

[Los_29]

If players wanted to play here we wouldn't be constantly signing bottom-of-the-barrel and mid-tier free agents.

Things are definitely better though. I think we at least have a slight chance of retaining Scottie.

You said players don't want to live in Canada. That clearly hasn't been the case the past decade as we've been able to re-sign all of our key players. Obviously the one exception is Kawhi who was seen as a rental from day 1 and notified the Spurs that he only wanted to play in LA.

And clearly we have an excellent chance of re-signing Scottie given how things have gone the past decade. Not even worried about that. Winning is important though, if we spend a couple years in the lottery then I wouldn't be that confident.

"If players wanted to play here we wouldn't be constantly signing bottom-of-the-barrel and mid-tier free agents."

What?

What? LMFAO

Name a top free agent we've signed.

Read my post again. The whole post.

You also said that players don't want to play here. That's false. Clearly false as we've had no problem re-signing our star players the past decade.

[Madhouse]

but what if we move from 14 to 1?

When has that happened? When has 14 moved top 5 let alone #1?? Come on..

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never but that's why you play the game.

we would have to have generational lottery luck like the 1993 Orlando Magic but I rather have that slim chance than not. Magic should have built a dynasty with Hardaway and Shaq.

[NBA Sheady]

thats 8 years down the road anyway

Man, I wish he had 7 years left on his deal. Hopefully what you're implying is how it plays out.

It always plays out that way. Now, unrestricted free agency is a different beast and unpredictable but this is far away.

Scottie took a bench role so he could play point. The dude marches to his own beat and wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if he took the QO. But to your point, I don't believe it has happened in the current CBA.

[NBA Sheady]

You said players don't want to live in Canada. That clearly hasn't been the case the past decade as we've been able to re-sign all of our key players. Obviously the one exception is Kawhi who was seen as a rental from day 1 and notified the Spurs that he only wanted to play in LA.

And clearly we have an excellent chance of re-signing Scottie given how things have gone the past decade. Not even worried about that. Winning is important though, if we spend a couple years in the lottery then I wouldn't be that confident.

"If players wanted to play here we wouldn't be constantly signing bottom-of-the-barrel and mid-tier free agents."

What?

What? LMFAO

Name a top free agent we've signed.

Read my post again. The whole post.

I've re-read the post. My question does not change.

[Parataxis]

tWo just lives in a fantasy world where everyone in the lottery become superstars. When in reality you're lucky to get 1-2 all-stars in the lottery each year. They blatantly ignore history. Atlanta, Minnesota, New York, LA Lakers, Orlando, New Orleans, Sacramento, Detroit, Washington and Philadelphia's failures in the lottery don't exist to them. Even Denver, Miami and Milwaukee have failed in the lottery. Even we drafted Poeltl in the lottery and that was the 9th pick in the draft.

Can you imagine how delusional someone must be to think they can get a running mate for Scottie in the draft? What are the chances that who we draft in the lottery is better than Siakam or FVV? I don't think tWo wants the answer to this one.

tWo lives in a fantasy land.

Especially if they think we can tank and retain Scottie. Even when winning we have struggled to retain top talent. Anyone who thinks we can tank and retain Scottie is on that dope.

Including winning a championship .
TWO keeps moving the years back. First it's only a one and done year to tank so we can fluke in and get a top end talent....done. Then it's 2 years so we get a running mate for Barnes. Next it's 3 years so we can get some nice role players. Next thing we know it's 7 years and Scottie has become a superstar and is tired of losing and demands out to go to LA.

Then we start the process all over again. It's complete insanity.

And this doesn't even include if we whiff on the lottery and get a non-superstar. That'll just add more years.

[Los_29]

What? LMFAO

Name a top free agent we've signed.

Read my post again. The whole post.

I've re-read the post. My question does not change.

Then reading comprehension is an issue.

[NBA Sheady]

You said players don't want to live in Canada. That clearly hasn't been the case the past decade as we've been able to re-sign all of our key players. Obviously the one exception is Kawhi who was seen as a rental from day 1 and notified the Spurs that he only wanted to play in LA.

And clearly we have an excellent chance of re-signing Scottie given how things have gone the past decade. Not even worried about that. Winning is important though, if we spend a couple years in the lottery then I wouldn't be that confident.

"If players wanted to play here we wouldn't be constantly signing bottom-of-the-barrel and mid-tier free agents."

What?

What? LMFAO

Name a top free agent we've signed.

Read my post again. The whole post.

You also said that players don't want to play here. That's false. Clearly false as we've had no problem re-signing our star players the past decade.

I really should be more focused on the Masai era and not the totality since 1995.

[NBA Sheady]

Read my post again. The whole post.

I've re-read the post. My question does not change.

Then reading comprehension is an issue.

Yes, anyone who doesn't agree with you is failing to comprehend or a bot.

[Los_29]

Especially if they think we can tank and retain Scottie. Even when winning we have struggled to retain top talent. Anyone who thinks we can tank and retain Scottie is on that dope.

Including winning a championship .
TWO keeps moving the years back. First it's only a one and done year to tank so we can fluke in and get a top end talent....done. Then it's 2 years so we get a running mate for Barnes. Next it's 3 years so we can get some nice role players. Next thing we know it's 7 years and Scottie has become a superstar and is tired of losing and demands out to go to LA.

Then we start the process all over again. It's complete insanity.

And this doesn't even include if we whiff on the lottery and get a non-superstar. That'll just add more years.

Great point. Another problem with this strategy (if you can even call it one) is that it leaves no margin for error.

[PhilBlackson]

Show me where I've said anything to indicate I think that is the case.

I'm saying you can't go from tanking to winning. If you could, there would be more than a few odd examples in the entirety of NBA history.

Tell me how you go from tanking to winning the very next season. What are the steps? What is the plan?

Let's repeat this yet again...

NO ONE is saying we need to actually tank (re-read that until it absorbs in and then do it again), no one believes we can bottom out below all the garbage below us in the standings OR that we will/should do that for years on end. That's just some ridiculous drivel that ironically TM posters resort to making these foolish hyperbolic statements that no one is actually saying in order to get attention/response. It's about remaining in the lottery to increase the likelihood of drafting another star young player which happens repeatedly.

We're talking about finishing in the 10-15th seed (with the possibility of moving up in the draft) to being Playoff bound the next season, is that really such a difficult jump to comprehend?!?? lol

I've asked you to explain your plan and you haven't. I will conclude you don't have one.

Ahh the hilarous irony....you see you thought you're bright but you're really not.

Based on the history of the franchise that is not logical.

We lost Damon, Bosh, VC and Kawhi. There is no logical reason to think Barnes will be any different.

It is also a drastic difference now with the Raptors front office situation.

I agree it's different. I agree the difference is indeed drastic. It doesn't change the fact that Americans don't want to live in Canada.

I don't understand what your gripe is about...

It's been repeated over & over & over that NO ONE is saying to tank in perpetuity so can we please stop talking/acting like that's the case?! Scottie isn't going to leave because the Raps preferred to stay out of the Play In during his rookie season lol in order to improve their odds of giving him a star running mate for the next near decade...

Of course if anything that would only help to retain him, believing he has another guy that can help him get over the top and that management will know what to do with the remainder of the roster and then turn some of those other pieces into a 3rd star. That's the hope NOT to tank forever so please some of you guys are whining over and over about things not even being said.

Everyone acknowledges best case scenario be in the back end of the lottery with a good chance of being the 7/8th seed (it's just not preferred). If you have a better plan, spit out and please stop making like anyone is proposing we lose for years on end because it's simply not true.

I literally asked YOU two posts BEFORE YOURS (#1830 vs your post at #1832) what YOUR plan was, so you didn't answer because YOU don't have one you're just here to talk outta your backside while YOU AVOID answering and instead keep presenting more questions so that you don't have to face the fact you literally have no idea what you're going on about, nor do you have anything that resembles a solution but carry on...

[Los_29]

I've re-read the post. My question does not change.

Then reading comprehension is an issue.

Yes, anyone who doesn't agree with you is failing to comprehend or a bot.

It's quite clearly in the post and like I said earlier, you said that players don't want to play here. That is completely false as we've had no problems re-signing our players over the past decade. Zero problems whatsoever. Ibaka, Demar, Lowry, Pascal, FVV, JV, OG.

Then you moved the goal posts and said "well we can't sign any free agents." Well first of all, that's different to your original statement and secondly, when have we tried? When have we been both an elite team and had cap space. How many free agents did GSW sign before KD? Do you think they sign KD if they didn't have Curry/Dray/Klay? Do you think Aldridge signs with the Spurs if they didn't have the team that they had?

There are about 27 teams in the league that have had problems signing free agents.

[PhilBlackson]

Including winning a championship .
TWO keeps moving the years back. First it's only a one and done year to tank so we can fluke in and get a top end talent....done. Then it's 2 years so we get a running mate for Barnes. Next it's 3 years so we can get some nice role players. Next thing we know it's 7 years and Scottie has become a superstar and is tired of losing and demands out to go to LA.

Then we start the process all over again. It's complete insanity.

And this doesn't even include if we whiff on the lottery and get a non-superstar. That'll just add more years.

Great point. Another problem with this strategy (if you can even call it one) is that it leaves no margin for error.

We're all dying to hear....

Spit out YOUR infallible strategy Los, we'll all wait.

GO!

[Steelo Green]

We are sure great at signing our own FAs. Not like the only player ever to leave after winning finals MVP was our FA.

Kyle, Serge, Pascal were overpaid to stay and none of them were superstars.

[ATLTimekeeper]

On the flipside, we do stay in the 11-14 range, the elite scouting department does find it's "Booker, Mitchell, LaVine, Thompson" etc before they come off the board (or we fluke into the top 4, not likely but still an actual possibility)...what's better long term?? Took a 1st round beatdown or potentially added another young star for the next near decade and drastically increased the team's ceiling and made the Playoffs the following year?! No one is saying it's a sure thing but given how excellent the scouting department is, it's all about just giving them better ODDS to do so. For some barely missing a Playoffs to in all likelihood be in it the very next season vs a 1st rd beatdown is a small price to pay for would could completely alter the trajectory of the franchise for the next 8 years...

To each their own, we all want the team to reach the same height but yet again it's just a difference in opinion of how we think the team can get there.

What's the acquisition cost of moving up a few spots into the 10-14 range, though? Can't be that expensive. For instance the Jazz acquired Mitchell for Tyler Lydon (late FRP) and Trey Lyles (somewhat interesting rookie). It wasn't much. I think the Raptors could still go for 8th or whatever this year, get waxed, and still make a play for one of those picks if they determine that that kind of player is available.

[canada_dry]

Woah there.. I prefer the playoff route. I'm a fan of the game and want to see 4 extra games even if they are losses. I'm just saying.. there is a 0% chance of moving to the top 4 when you make the playoffs. And there is a chance (although small) of moving up when you don't.

And that's the debate here. And it's an interesting one. The NBA has made it where being a 1st round exit team is worse than missing the playoffs, because of the lottery system. The lottery system needs to be revamped.

Again, just 3 years ago, the Lakers moved up from 11 to 4. And were 10th in the conference.. so would have been a play-in team if that existed back then.

Its so rare man. Especially in that 13-14 range we would be in. They simply dont jump. Maybe once in a blue moon. But not even then. I don't think its worse to be a playoff team than a late lottery team unless you're always and perpetually in that position. If you're a young team that playoff experience is invaluable and definitely worth being down literally one or 2 spots in the draft. Like we r talking pick 15, its not a discussion to be had at all.

Maybe we make the play in tournament and lose. Who knows. We keep lottery spot, and we also get SOME postseason experience.

I just rhymed off a long list of all-star calibre players (or close to or developing into) in the last decade that were taken in that 10-14 range so that's what most people are weighing...

Give arguably the best scouting department to be in that position to spot those kinds of players that slip into that 10-14 range vs a 1s round exit. What do people think has a greater long term effect??

Why would barely just missing a single post season suddenly throw this franchise into disarray?! lol What would that single post season more (being that we would MORE than likely be in the Playoffs the following year) do different for the team long term?! Maybe they put up a better fight in the 1st round the following year?! Some of you are acting like if the team didn't make the Playoffs this year despite a litany of reasons/excuses between health & covid that suddenly it would "hurt" the winning culture, as if guys like Fred, Pascal, OG are suddenly gonna give up because they didn't make it that single season and the whole thing is shot to hell lol pleeeease. They'll come back just as, if not MORE determined than ever to make it back..

On the flipside, we do stay in the 11-14 range, the elite scouting department does find it's "Booker, Mitchell, LaVine, Thompson" etc before they come off the board (or we fluke into the top 4, not likely but still an actual possibility)...what's better long term?? Took a 1st round beatdown or potentially added another young star for the next near decade and drastically increased the team's ceiling and made the Playoffs the following year?! No one is saying it's a sure thing but given how excellent the scouting department is, it's all about just giving them better ODDS to do so. For some barely missing a Playoffs to in all likelihood be in it the very next season vs a 1st rd beatdown is a small price to pay for would could completely alter the trajectory of the franchise for the next 8 years...

To each their own, we all want the team to reach the same height but yet again it's just a difference in opinion of how we think the team can get there.

No. What im saying is u want to lose in the play in. Thats essentially what u guys are asking for right now with the 13th or 14th lottery odds. The team being better than u thought has brought u to this point of desperation lol. Uve become what uve hated.

"pLaY iN fOr WhAt?"



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[canada_dry]

Woah there.. I prefer the playoff route. I'm a fan of the game and want to see 4 extra games even if they are losses. I'm just saying.. there is a 0% chance of moving to the top 4 when you make the playoffs. And there is a chance (although small) of moving up when you don't.

And that's the debate here. And it's an interesting one. The NBA has made it where being a 1st round exit team is worse than missing the playoffs, because of the lottery system. The lottery system needs to be revamped.

Again, just 3 years ago, the Lakers moved up from 11 to 4. And were 10th in the conference.. so would have been a play-in team if that existed back then.

Its so rare man. Especially in that 13-14 range we would be in. They simply dont jump. Maybe once in a blue moon. But not even then. I don't think its worse to be a playoff team than a late lottery team unless you're always and perpetually in that position. If you're a young team that playoff experience is invaluable and definitely worth being down literally one or 2 spots in the draft. Like we r talking pick 15, its not a discussion to be had at all.

Maybe we make the play in tournament and lose. Who knows. We keep lottery spot, and we also get SOME postseason experience.

I just rhymed off a long list of all-star calibre players (or close to or developing into) in the last decade that were taken in that 10-14 range so that's what most people are weighing...

Give arguably the best scouting department to be in that position to spot those kinds of players that slip into that 10-14 range vs a 1s round exit. What do people think has a greater long term effect??

Why would barely just missing a single post season suddenly throw this franchise into disarray?! lol What would that single post season more (being that we would MORE than likely be in the Playoffs the following year) do different for the team long term?! Maybe they put up a better fight in the 1st round the following year?! Some of you are acting like if the team didn't make the Playoffs this year despite a litany of reasons/excuses between health & covid that suddenly it would "hurt" the winning culture, as if guys like Fred, Pascal, OG are suddenly gonna give up because they didn't make it that single season and the whole thing is shot to hell lol pleeeease. They'll come back just as, if not MORE determined than ever to make it back..

On the flipside, we do stay in the 11-14 range, the elite scouting department does find it's "Booker, Mitchell, LaVine, Thompson" etc before they come off the board (or we fluke into the top 4, not likely but still an actual possibility)...what's better long term?? Took a 1st round beatdown or potentially added another young star for the next near decade and drastically increased the team's ceiling and made the Playoffs the following year?! No one is saying it's a sure thing but given how excellent the scouting department is, it's all about just giving them better ODDS to do so. For some barely missing a Playoffs to in all likelihood be in it the very next season vs a 1st rd beatdown is a small price to pay for would could completely alter the trajectory of the franchise for the next 8 years...

To each their own, we all want the team to reach the same height but yet again it's just a difference in opinion of how we think the team can get there.

Also. Forget the odds. History tells u the 12th pick and the 15th pick is essentially no different. Whats hard to understand? We're one of the youngest teams in the league. Its not like we're a older team just hanging on to a playoff spot. Id rather pick 15th than 12th and have some playoff experience as well to build into next year with. Nail the pick at 15 with our great scouts and we're rolling.

What u want is a play in loss so we keep the lottery pick. Really Wouldn't necessarily be the worst outcome since theres some experience gained there too, but its just hilarious that this is what TWO has come to after all that "play in for what??" Battle cries lmao.

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[canada_dry]

When has that happened? When has 14 moved top 5 let alone #1?? Come on..

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never but that's why you play the game.

we would have to have generational lottery luck like the 1993 Orlando Magic but I rather have that slim chance than not. Magic should have built a dynasty with Hardaway and Shaq.

Ur pro play in then . In the words of the great DJ Khaled, Congratulations. Uve played yourself.

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