Official NBA General Discussion 2023-24 V2.0

[PushDaRock]

Rockets did pretty good by waiting it out. Sengun is taking a decent pay cut from the max in exchange for the player option and I am assuming there isn't an All-NBA provision in there either. Green's AAV is an overpay based on his current production but limiting his deal to 3 years max isn't too bad of an outcome as they probably felt like they had to gamble on him improving as he still has a very high ceiling if he can ever figure it out.

[Dalek]

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=0YpMScWXY2zRUqR8fH-usg

Welp. Glad to pay IQ $32M instead of $30M to Suggs.

Lotta money for a 3+D PG

I think if the PG is an elite defender than it is reasonable. Suggs made an all-NBA Defensive second team which is impressive. He also shot about 39% from three. Guys like Jrue Holiday got paid a lot for similar type of production. I watched a fair bit of the Magic on LP and Suggs can really lift his whole team with his defense.

IQ will have to show he can guard on ball. I think he is a great off ball defender, but whether he can stop any starting PG will be something for Toronto to watch. IQ also has some finishing at the rim issues which also hold him back. I'd probably want IQ over Suggs but I feel like Suggs is just figuring things out now.

[ForeverTFC]

Feels like a lot for a bench piece for at least the first 2 years of that contract. But they had to do it, he's good and will probably take over the starting spot from CJ when he expires in '26 (not sure anyone is trading for CJ at ~$30m per at this point).

That's 80% of what IQ got btw.

I think the Pelicans got a bargain. Assuming no improvement, you still have an athletic 6"8 guy that's a high volume shooter who makes threes at a 40% clip. That's at a premium everywhere in the league and certainly worth 28m AAV given he's just 24 and you are getting his prime years. His USG has also been very low in his career because he plays with Ingram, Zion and CJ. There's a chance at a major break out if he gets some more opportunity. He's getting paid now as if he won't ever break out IMO.

Bargain is a lot but totally agree that the deal is good. They had to do it. The problem is their depth chart and role; he and herb are both on the bench. They really need to make space for both of them. Ingram situation will be figured out in a year, but CJ has 2 more years left. Do they shift him to the bench?

[Syd-TK3]

Is that sengun deal official? Why shams just ignore it but say everything else?

[ForeverTFC]

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=0YpMScWXY2zRUqR8fH-usg

Welp. Glad to pay IQ $32M instead of $30M to Suggs.

Lotta money for a 3+D PG

I think if the PG is an elite defender than it is reasonable. Suggs made an all-NBA Defensive second team which is impressive. He also shot about 39% from three. Guys like Jrue Holiday got paid a lot for similar type of production. I watched a fair bit of the Magic on LP and Suggs can really lift his whole team with his defense.

IQ will have to show he can guard on ball. I think he is a great off ball defender, but whether he can stop any starting PG will be something for Toronto to watch. IQ also has some finishing at the rim issues which also hold him back. I'd probably want IQ over Suggs but I feel like Suggs is just figuring things out now.

While Jrue was never an amazing creator, he was a great secondary playmaker. Suggs just doesn't have much playmaking in his game, so his value on offense is very much his 3pt shooting. If that regresses back to his first 2 years or even down to ~35%, you end up with Marcus Smart.

[ForeverTFC]

2+1 for Jalen Green slightly below his max. Interesting deal for both sides. I think they hold off on Sengun until the off-season, and unless something goes very wrong, he gets his max.

Read on Twitter

Best deal of the summer. Even if he regresses a bit and/or they choose to move forward with Green as a focal point, it's a good contract and should net them a bunch in a trade.

[Dalek]

Welp. Glad to pay IQ $32M instead of $30M to Suggs.

Lotta money for a 3+D PG

I think if the PG is an elite defender than it is reasonable. Suggs made an all-NBA Defensive second team which is impressive. He also shot about 39% from three. Guys like Jrue Holiday got paid a lot for similar type of production. I watched a fair bit of the Magic on LP and Suggs can really lift his whole team with his defense.

IQ will have to show he can guard on ball. I think he is a great off ball defender, but whether he can stop any starting PG will be something for Toronto to watch. IQ also has some finishing at the rim issues which also hold him back. I'd probably want IQ over Suggs but I feel like Suggs is just figuring things out now.

While Jrue was never an amazing creator, he was a great secondary playmaker. Suggs just doesn't have much playmaking in his game, so his value on offense is very much his 3pt shooting. If that regresses back to his first 2 years or even down to ~35%, you end up with Marcus Smart.

I don't know if that is a bad thing. Elite POA defense wins championships. With all these point-forward types, there is less of a need for playing making from guards. Other than Curry/Warriors, the last few titles didn't need floor generals but thrived on defense.

2024 Celts (Holiday/White)
2023 Nuggets (Brown/KCP) ; caveat about Jamal Murray because he was a SG and carried a big scoring load
2022 Bucks (Holiday)
2021 Warriors (carried by Curry)
2020 Lakers (KCP/Bradley)
2019 Raptors (Lowry/Green) ; Lowry ran the team but it is fair to say that Kawhi carried the offense. It was a weird year with Toronto playing a team missing so many top scoring threats. We literally used Box and 1 to win a title.

I do think Suggs needs to keep his shooting numbers up, but he has a good role in ORL and adds a ton of value as lead guard.

Interesting that KCP and Holiday keep surfacing as they do.

[REJECTEDBYCLARK]

everything jaylon tyson does well is negated by how turnover prone he is

[ForeverTFC]

I think if the PG is an elite defender than it is reasonable. Suggs made an all-NBA Defensive second team which is impressive. He also shot about 39% from three. Guys like Jrue Holiday got paid a lot for similar type of production. I watched a fair bit of the Magic on LP and Suggs can really lift his whole team with his defense.

IQ will have to show he can guard on ball. I think he is a great off ball defender, but whether he can stop any starting PG will be something for Toronto to watch. IQ also has some finishing at the rim issues which also hold him back. I'd probably want IQ over Suggs but I feel like Suggs is just figuring things out now.

While Jrue was never an amazing creator, he was a great secondary playmaker. Suggs just doesn't have much playmaking in his game, so his value on offense is very much his 3pt shooting. If that regresses back to his first 2 years or even down to ~35%, you end up with Marcus Smart.

I don't know if that is a bad thing. Elite POA defense wins championships. With all these point-forward types, there is less of a need for playing making from guards. Other than Curry/Warriors, the last few titles didn't need floor generals but thrived on defense.

2024 Celts (Holiday/White)
2023 Nuggets (Brown/KCP) ; caveat about Jamal Murray because he was a SG and carried a big scoring load
2022 Bucks (Holiday)
2021 Warriors (carried by Curry)
2020 Lakers (KCP/Bradley)
2019 Raptors (Lowry/Green) ; Lowry ran the team but it is fair to say that Kawhi carried the offense. It was a weird year with Toronto playing a team missing so many top scoring threats. We literally used Box and 1 to win a title.

I do think Suggs needs to keep his shooting numbers up, but he has a good role in ORL and adds a ton of value as lead guard.

Interesting that KCP and Holiday keep surfacing as they do.

Definitely. I think very real chance that he's worth every penny of the contract and the base case will turn out well, but my view is the risk/reward skews toward more risk than higher reward.

It's interesting to see the teams and their guard rotation. I will say, Lowry was a great floor general, and then all the other teams that won had some of the greatest non-PG creators/generals on their team: Lakers - Lebron, Warriors - Draymond (though Curry did a lot more in '21), Nuggets - Jokic. The two that stick out are the Bucks and Celts. Bucks in my opinion had the luckiest run and I don't think they win the championship all that much if you sim'd the playoffs multiple times (and they did have Jrue to run sets at a high level for them). Celtics are another story: you can say Mazulla's system is the floor general there.

So I guess the question is, do we think Paolo/Franz can excel in that primary creator role? Probably way too early to tell, though they're building their team as if they believe that to be the case.

[Dalek]

everything jaylon tyson does well is negated by how turnover prone he is

I agree that his turnovers need to come down. He had an unusually high usage role at CAL which should help the live ball TOs to come down. If he keeps his game simple he can be a Josh Hart do-it-all type. I just don't know how he doesn't become a long-term NBA rotation player. Too skilled.

[YogurtProducer]

Welp. Glad to pay IQ $32M instead of $30M to Suggs.

Lotta money for a 3+D PG

I think if the PG is an elite defender than it is reasonable. Suggs made an all-NBA Defensive second team which is impressive. He also shot about 39% from three. Guys like Jrue Holiday got paid a lot for similar type of production. I watched a fair bit of the Magic on LP and Suggs can really lift his whole team with his defense.

IQ will have to show he can guard on ball. I think he is a great off ball defender, but whether he can stop any starting PG will be something for Toronto to watch. IQ also has some finishing at the rim issues which also hold him back. I'd probably want IQ over Suggs but I feel like Suggs is just figuring things out now.

While Jrue was never an amazing creator, he was a great secondary playmaker. Suggs just doesn't have much playmaking in his game, so his value on offense is very much his 3pt shooting. If that regresses back to his first 2 years or even down to ~35%, you end up with Marcus Smart.

Yeah Jrue is significantly better than Suggs.

[UnbelievablyRAW]

Houston put out a masterclass on not paying guys just because. That Wagner deal will look worse than the Suggs one imo

[Dalek]

Now that we have the rookie extensions for the 2020 class, how does Scottie's deal look?

1. Cade Cunningham 5y / $224m
Points: 22.7
Rebounds: 4.3
Assists: 7.5
3P%: 35.5%

2. Evan Mobley 5y / $224m
Points: 15.7
Rebounds: 9.4
Assists: 3.2
3P%: 37.3%

3. Jalen Green 3y / $106m
Points: 19.6
Rebounds: 5.2
Assists: 3.5
3P%: 33.2%

4. Scottie Barnes 5y / $224m
Points: 19.9
Rebounds: 8.2
Assists: 6.1
3P%: 34.1%

5. Jalen Suggs 5y / $150m
Points: 12.6
Rebounds: 3.1
Assists: 2.7
3P%: 39.7%

8. Franz Wagner 5y / $224m
Points: 19.7
Rebounds: 5.3
Assists: 3.7
3P%: 28%

16. Alperen Sengun 5y / $185m
Points: 21
Rebounds: 9
Assists: 5
3P%: 30%

17. Trey Murphy 4y / $112m
Points: 14.8
Rebounds: 4.9
Assists: 2.2
3P%:38%

20. Jalen Johnson 5y / $150m
Points: 16
Rebounds: 8.7
Assists: 3.6
3P%: 35.5%

Herb Jones 4y / $54m
Points: 11
Rebounds: 3.6
Assists: 2.6
3P%: 41.8%

I think on the surface of it, Barnes is part of the rookie max extension club which is all-around bad business. Cade looks the part of a franchise guy at times, but he really hasn't had a good supporting cast until this year. Wagner is similar production-wise to Barnes but both players took a step back shooting last season. Mobley has minimal stat development, but he helps to anchor that team's defense. Yet these guys get paid top dollar without the proof they are worth this level.

When I look at what Houston did with Jalen Green and Sengun it was impressive considering their high potential to have even better numbers on a very strong defensive team.

Murphy and Jones are a steal for the influence they have on games. New Orleans is in a tough spot financially, but these are great deals.

Jalen Johnson is probably the steal of the class. His numbers are impressive and he is improving each year. That contract is likely a steal.

Jalen Suggs is a fair deal if the shooting holds up. The defense is all-NBA so he earned his deal at least.

[JB7]

Houston put out a masterclass on not paying guys just because. That Wagner deal will look worse than the Suggs one imo

Magic better like their core, because now that they have paid them (Banchero is obviously getting maxed), I don't think those contracts will be easy to move (outside of Banchero). This is the Magic for the next half a decade.

[Tha Cynic]

Butler has a great personality. Dude is hilarious without trying. You can see why he gets along with Lowry and DeRozan so well.

Watch on YouTube

[MiamiSPX]

I think on the surface of it, Barnes is part of the rookie max extension club which is all-around bad business. Cade looks the part of a franchise guy at times, but he really hasn't had a good supporting cast until this year. Wagner is similar production-wise to Barnes but both players took a step back shooting last season. Mobley has minimal stat development, but he helps to anchor that team's defense. Yet these guys get paid top dollar without the proof they are worth this level.

Cade's counting stats are good if you don't look at his horrible efficiency. Sure he has only played on awful teams but shouldn't we expect the #1 pick to at least make a couple of guys look good? Is he better than Wagner? Probably, but nobody is under any illusion that Franz can be a franchise player. I take Barnes and Mobley over Cade 10 out of 10 times. I likely even take Wagner over him. What Wagner lacks in skill compared to Cade is made up for by being way more durable.

When I look at what Houston did with Jalen Green and Sengun it was impressive considering their high potential to have even better numbers on a very strong defensive team.

Agreed. I'm not a big Green fan but there are many idiotic teams out there that would have gladly maxed him. Stone has been superb lately.

[Wise80]

Interesting to see the takes on Suggs. I'm a big fan. He has a spot in the backcourt on a contending team. I'm not so sure of that with IQ.

[DreamTeam09]

Interesting to see the takes on Suggs. I'm a big fan. He has a spot in the backcourt on a contending team. I'm not so sure of that with IQ.

I'd much rather IQ than Suggs, Infact IQ would take Orlando to another level imo. IQ has the shooting and creating that Orlando is missing.

[JB7]

Interesting to see the takes on Suggs. I'm a big fan. He has a spot in the backcourt on a contending team. I'm not so sure of that with IQ.

I'd much rather IQ than Suggs, Infact IQ would take Orlando to another level imo. IQ has the shooting and creating that Orlando is missing.

Raps fans should be able to appreciate the world the Magic are in now. Players that are great defensively, with little offensive creation.

Didn't get the Raps far in the playoffs, post championship/Kawhi.

[Spida888]

Now that we have the rookie extensions for the 2020 class, how does Scottie's deal look?

1. Cade Cunningham 5y / $224m
Points: 22.7
Rebounds: 4.3
Assists: 7.5
3P%: 35.5%

2. Evan Mobley 5y / $224m
Points: 15.7
Rebounds: 9.4
Assists: 3.2
3P%: 37.3%

3. Jalen Green 3y / $106m
Points: 19.6
Rebounds: 5.2
Assists: 3.5
3P%: 33.2%

4. Scottie Barnes 5y / $224m
Points: 19.9
Rebounds: 8.2
Assists: 6.1
3P%: 34.1%

5. Jalen Suggs 5y / $150m
Points: 12.6
Rebounds: 3.1
Assists: 2.7
3P%: 39.7%

8. Franz Wagner 5y / $224m
Points: 19.7
Rebounds: 5.3
Assists: 3.7
3P%: 28%

16. Alperen Sengun 5y / $185m
Points: 21
Rebounds: 9
Assists: 5
3P%: 30%

17. Trey Murphy 4y / $112m
Points: 14.8
Rebounds: 4.9
Assists: 2.2
3P%:38%

20. Jalen Johnson 5y / $150m
Points: 16
Rebounds: 8.7
Assists: 3.6
3P%: 35.5%

Herb Jones 4y / $54m
Points: 11
Rebounds: 3.6
Assists: 2.6
3P%: 41.8%

I think on the surface of it, Barnes is part of the rookie max extension club which is all-around bad business. Cade looks the part of a franchise guy at times, but he really hasn't had a good supporting cast until this year. Wagner is similar production-wise to Barnes but both players took a step back shooting last season. Mobley has minimal stat development, but he helps to anchor that team's defense. Yet these guys get paid top dollar without the proof they are worth this level.

When I look at what Houston did with Jalen Green and Sengun it was impressive considering their high potential to have even better numbers on a very strong defensive team.

Murphy and Jones are a steal for the influence they have on games. New Orleans is in a tough spot financially, but these are great deals.

Jalen Johnson is probably the steal of the class. His numbers are impressive and he is improving each year. That contract is likely a steal.

Jalen Suggs is a fair deal if the shooting holds up. The defense is all-NBA so he earned his deal at least.

Agreed that Houston and NOP did well here. Scottie's deal looks "ok" to me, it wasn't a surprise that he would get the max and a lot of it is betting on his potential/growth.

If Scottie makes all-nba next year, his contract is even higher and will hurt our cap flexibility. If he makes a jump and becomes a "perennial" all-nba player, then he's earned the raise.