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Former Raptor discussion thread 2.0
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Re: Former Raptor discussion thread 2.0
Fred with 32/4/15 on 20 shots including 9/9 from the line. The man is on a serious heater.
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Re: Former Raptor discussion thread 2.0
Fairview4Life wrote:mdenny wrote:Imagine if Houston had drafted Scotty or Franz instead of Green? They would probably be a legit contender right now.
...no, lol. Come on now. They have 2 road wins this season. No Morant Memphis and somehow the Nuggets. They had a 7 game homestand early in the year.
You're right. I should've said 'future contender'.
Fred dropped another 32 point/15 assists tonight. I only watched the 4th and tbh, he kinda struggled (so did the whole team).
But it's really easy to see why Ime choose to go there now. They already have a solid play-in roster that is young and well-constructed. Plus they have 12 picks over the next 3 years (6 Firsts/6 seconds). Maybe not as envious as OKC but they are up there in terms of near-future potential to put together a long contending run.
It's way too early to do a 'put your chips on the table' move right now....but if they added a high-scoring guard like Lavine or Mitchell they could be pretty dangerous. I'm guessing they're better off waiting though....
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Norm lighting it up. .. shooting over 50 percent for the season...
Absolutely HATED THE TRADE then... Masai keeps trading talent WHO WANT TO BE HERE.
magine Norm still on this team... starting at sg... fitting in perfectly. instead another disaster trade move by Masai..for one dimensional poor shooting scrub Trent.
Seriously, other than the Barnea draft, everything else has been pathetic....
Absolutely HATED THE TRADE then... Masai keeps trading talent WHO WANT TO BE HERE.
magine Norm still on this team... starting at sg... fitting in perfectly. instead another disaster trade move by Masai..for one dimensional poor shooting scrub Trent.
Seriously, other than the Barnea draft, everything else has been pathetic....
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Re: Former Raptor discussion thread 2.0
Kingsway_fan wrote:Norm lighting it up. .. shooting over 50 percent for the season...
Absolutely HATED THE TRADE then... Masai keeps trading talent WHO WANT TO BE HERE.
magine Norm still on this team... starting at sg... fitting in perfectly. instead another disaster trade move by Masai..for one dimensional poor shooting scrub Trent.
Seriously, other than the Barnea draft, everything else has been pathetic....
Dennis wants to be here

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Kingsway_fan wrote:Norm lighting it up. .. shooting over 50 percent for the season...
Absolutely HATED THE TRADE then... Masai keeps trading talent WHO WANT TO BE HERE.
magine Norm still on this team... starting at sg... fitting in perfectly. instead another disaster trade move by Masai..for one dimensional poor shooting scrub Trent.
Seriously, other than the Barnea draft, everything else has been pathetic....
I didn't like it at the time, I was absolutely certain he was better than Gary Trent Jr., but if we were blowing it could be argued it made sense as the first move to get younger. Then... we didn't blow it up and just kept everyone and it made absolutely no sense. Looking back it seems like Norm got traded because he was angling for a long term deal (5 years) and Masai doesn't give out 5 year contracts to anyone, not even Pascal our build around franchise player and All-NBA level talent got a 5 year contract.
It hurts now seeing him shooting over 45% from 3 with a ridiculous true shooting percentage (65.7%). That's the kind of scoring efficiency this team desperately needs, the worst part is that he wanted to stay here.
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Re: Former Raptor discussion thread 2.0
ciueli wrote:Kingsway_fan wrote:Norm lighting it up. .. shooting over 50 percent for the season...
Absolutely HATED THE TRADE then... Masai keeps trading talent WHO WANT TO BE HERE.
magine Norm still on this team... starting at sg... fitting in perfectly. instead another disaster trade move by Masai..for one dimensional poor shooting scrub Trent.
Seriously, other than the Barnea draft, everything else has been pathetic....
I didn't like it at the time, I was absolutely certain he was better than Gary Trent Jr., but if we were blowing it could be argued it made sense as the first move to get younger. Then... we didn't blow it up and just kept everyone and it made absolutely no sense. Looking back it seems like Norm got traded because he was angling for a long term deal (5 years) and Masai doesn't give out 5 year contracts to anyone, not even Pascal our build around franchise player and All-NBA level talent got a 5 year contract.
It hurts now seeing him shooting over 45% from 3 with a ridiculous true shooting percentage (65.7%). That's the kind of scoring efficiency this team desperately needs, the worst part is that he wanted to stay here.
Masai happily gave a 5 year max to DeMar DeRozan, so I don't think that's the primary issue. Although it is worth nothing that this is the only time he's given out a 5 year contract, so maybe it's a factor?
I agree with everything you have to say, and as someone who wanted to see Norm traded to kickstart a rebuild, I have to say I wish we kept him now, since the team delayed rebuilding anyways. He brings so much of what this team is currently missing, and has been missing since they traded him: reliable shooting, shot creation, off-ball cutting, attacking the paint. He's somehow improved as a playmaker with the Clippers, which I didn't think was possible (the assist numbers are the same, but he can make some high-leverage passes now). If you don't have an All-Star scoring guard like Donovan Mitchell or Bradley Beal, someone like Norm is your next best option!
I always got the sense that Norm was just not valued that highly by the Raptors to begin with. I'm not exactly sure why, but I think it has to do with not ranking highly in analytical models, which we know the Raptors FO loves using. Sure, he can score and shoot and create shots like nobody else on the team could, and he cuts off the ball and moves around to get open as much as possible, which makes things much easier for his teammates on the offensive end - but if he's not that good on defense, why does any of that other stuff matter? (Ironically though, any viability the Siakam/FVV core had was gone as soon as Norm was traded, as the 2022 postseason would soon demonstrate. Turns out that having a reliable shooter and shot creator with actual gravity is much better than not having one. Playoff VanVleet proved in those first three games that he would not cut it, and Siakam was all alone in the second half of game 6 when he got doubled relentlessly while no one else could shoot or score to save their lives.)
I wanted Norm traded at the time, but for future picks down the line from a desperate team like, say, the 2021 Warriors (who would eventually miss the playoffs), not to swap out for a random "proven prospect" like Trent who turned out to be a total dud. (Oh, and don't forget the corpse of Rodney Hood after his Achilles injury. Another truly fabulous pickup from that wretched trade.) Trent was nothing like Norm to begin with (no superstar-esque physical tools or athleticism, nor the IQ, nor the crazy work ethic), and there was no guarantee that he would follow the same improbable development curve that Norm did (in part because he was so different from Norm to begin with). I have no real idea how fans suddenly deluded themselves into thinking Trent would eventually become better than Norm, or thinking he would be any good at all to begin with, but that is what happened.
The fact that Norm remained far better than Trent after the trade happened is kind of poetic in a way, because it serves as a microcosm of Masai's subpar GM performance since 2020. It gets even better though: Norm ended up on a contender (Clippers) that values everything he brings, since he's constantly playing in closing lineups AND thriving, while helping them win games. Meanwhile, Trent has been so bad that he had to opt in this offseason, because there just isn't a robust market for dudes who offer almost zero skills whatsoever outside of being able to shoot the ball (and aren't even reliable shooters, at that). And in the end, Trent still can't crack the starting lineup, even though it is desperate for any kind of shooting whatsoever, because he is just that bad of a player.
Bottom line, if the Raptors were serious about competing, they should have kept Norm. If they were serious about rebuilding (which I wanted them to do at the time), they should have traded him for a much better return - at least something that included draft picks, because we know drafting and scouting is the one thing this front office can still do.
(I was going to include more thoughts here but I rambled on long enough. In particular, fan sentiment towards Norm has usually been much poorer than it has been towards Siakam/VanVleet/Anunoby, and I think that partly contributes to why Norm for Trent isn't called out for the bad trade that it is, nearly as frequently as it should. I'll elaborate later.)

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Re: Former Raptor discussion thread 2.0
lebron stopper wrote:ciueli wrote:Kingsway_fan wrote:Norm lighting it up. .. shooting over 50 percent for the season...
Absolutely HATED THE TRADE then... Masai keeps trading talent WHO WANT TO BE HERE.
magine Norm still on this team... starting at sg... fitting in perfectly. instead another disaster trade move by Masai..for one dimensional poor shooting scrub Trent.
Seriously, other than the Barnea draft, everything else has been pathetic....
I didn't like it at the time, I was absolutely certain he was better than Gary Trent Jr., but if we were blowing it could be argued it made sense as the first move to get younger. Then... we didn't blow it up and just kept everyone and it made absolutely no sense. Looking back it seems like Norm got traded because he was angling for a long term deal (5 years) and Masai doesn't give out 5 year contracts to anyone, not even Pascal our build around franchise player and All-NBA level talent got a 5 year contract.
It hurts now seeing him shooting over 45% from 3 with a ridiculous true shooting percentage (65.7%). That's the kind of scoring efficiency this team desperately needs, the worst part is that he wanted to stay here.
Masai happily gave a 5 year max to DeMar DeRozan, so I don't think that's the primary issue. Although it is worth nothing that this is the only time he's given out a 5 year contract, so maybe it's a factor?
I agree with everything you have to say, and as someone who wanted to see Norm traded to kickstart a rebuild, I have to say I wish we kept him now, since the team delayed rebuilding anyways. He brings so much of what this team is currently missing, and has been missing since they traded him: reliable shooting, shot creation, off-ball cutting, attacking the paint. He's somehow improved as a playmaker with the Clippers, which I didn't think was possible (the assist numbers are the same, but he can make some high-leverage passes now). If you don't have an All-Star scoring guard like Donovan Mitchell or Bradley Beal, someone like Norm is your next best option!
I always got the sense that Norm was just not valued that highly by the Raptors to begin with. I'm not exactly sure why, but I think it has to do with not ranking highly in analytical models, which we know the Raptors FO loves using. Sure, he can score and shoot and create shots like nobody else on the team could, and he cuts off the ball and moves around to get open as much as possible, which makes things much easier for his teammates on the offensive end - but if he's not that good on defense, why does any of that other stuff matter? (Ironically though, any viability the Siakam/FVV core had was gone as soon as Norm was traded, as the 2022 postseason would soon demonstrate. Turns out that having a reliable shooter and shot creator with actual gravity is much better than not having one. Playoff VanVleet proved in those first three games that he would not cut it, and Siakam was all alone in the second half of game 6 when he got doubled relentlessly while no one else could shoot or score to save their lives.)
I wanted Norm traded at the time, but for future picks down the line from a desperate team like, say, the 2021 Warriors (who would eventually miss the playoffs), not to swap out for a random "proven prospect" like Trent who turned out to be a total dud. (Oh, and don't forget the corpse of Rodney Hood after his Achilles injury. Another truly fabulous pickup from that wretched trade.) Trent was nothing like Norm to begin with (no superstar-esque physical tools or athleticism, nor the IQ, nor the crazy work ethic), and there was no guarantee that he would follow the same improbable development curve that Norm did (in part because he was so different from Norm to begin with). I have no real idea how fans suddenly deluded themselves into thinking Trent would eventually become better than Norm, or thinking he would be any good at all to begin with, but that is what happened.
The fact that Norm remained far better than Trent after the trade happened is kind of poetic in a way, because it serves as a microcosm of Masai's subpar GM performance since 2020. It gets even better though: Norm ended up on a contender (Clippers) that values everything he brings, since he's constantly playing in closing lineups AND thriving, while helping them win games. Meanwhile, Trent has been so bad that he had to opt in this offseason, because there just isn't a robust market for dudes who offer almost zero skills whatsoever outside of being able to shoot the ball (and aren't even reliable shooters, at that). And in the end, Trent still can't crack the starting lineup, even though it is desperate for any kind of shooting whatsoever, because he is just that bad of a player.
Bottom line, if the Raptors were serious about competing, they should have kept Norm. If they were serious about rebuilding (which I wanted them to do at the time), they should have traded him for a much better return - at least something that included draft picks, because we know drafting and scouting is the one thing this front office can still do.
(I was going to include more thoughts here but I rambled on long enough. In particular, fan sentiment towards Norm has usually been much poorer than it has been towards Siakam/VanVleet/Anunoby, and I think that partly contributes to why Norm for Trent isn't called out for the bad trade that it is, nearly as frequently as it should. I'll elaborate later.)
At the time of the Norm trade, it could be argued that
1) Masai didn't want to pay Norm a long term contract (going into a rebuild), due to Norm's shortcomings on defense
2) GTJ has a better pure shot / release, that could project to be a better shooter (didn't happen).
3) GTJ had a small cap hold (like 3M) that upcoming offseason that enabled them to sign other FA
Any trade has risk of upside and downside, so it is forgivable (for a few instances of failure). But it's the process that Masai fumbled that really demonstrated he's unfocused and impatient - and is unforgivable.

This is the process. Masai switched organization's direction from "rebuilding" to competing & "trading away draft position" in less than 1 year. I can only attribute it to the hubris of Masai thinking he has collected enough assets in Flynn, Achiuwa, Banton (and of course Scottie).
Re: Former Raptor discussion thread 2.0
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Re: Former Raptor discussion thread 2.0
I, like you, am not entirely convinced Masai is willing to make moves for future assets, even with his win now players who aren't winning and becoming FA. I don't know what the eff is going to happen. I kind of want to shut realgm off for a few months, ignore the games then pick things back up right at the trade deadline.

Let's playin for 9th!
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Im just here to remind everyone of how disgustingly wrong this board was on fred.
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sbsat wrote:Im just here to remind everyone of how disgustingly wrong this board was on fred.
I never would have wanted FVV at 40M+ even for just two years, but it sucks that he's having the kind of season he is this year when that is exactly what we're missing around Scottie. His three-point shooting wasn't good last season and Scottie wasn't near as advanced either, but they're both having great years in their own way so far.
It's ridiculous the amount of criticism he faced on this board in his last two seasons here especially. He was and never will be an efficient scorer (unless he finally develops a floater in his 30s), but he just does all of the little things that help a team win. It's not just FVV, but it says something when a team like Houston makes such a big leap (from 27th in ORTG and 29th in DRTG to 21st in ORTG and 2nd in DRTG) despite basically just adding FVV + Brooks while we fell off a cliff (from 13th in ORTG and 11th in DRTG to 20th in ORTG and 20th in DRTG) despite basically just swapping out FVV and swapping in Schroder.

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I don't see how it's ridiculous that he faced criticisms. He is still one of the most inefficient scorer. He still took the ball out of scotties hands. He played hero ball all the time because he bets on himself. His on ball defense was nowhere near the level of 2019. In fact if we traded Fred the last 2 seasons the Raptors would be in a better spot now. He was a flawed player that kept this team at .500. We were right to have wanted him gone all along.
I wouldn't want to play a player that only plays the right way after he gets a 40 million dollar contract.
As we speak another FVV masterclass. 38% shooting 1/7 from 3
I wouldn't want to play a player that only plays the right way after he gets a 40 million dollar contract.
As we speak another FVV masterclass. 38% shooting 1/7 from 3

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Chandan wrote:I don't see how it's ridiculous that he faced criticisms. He is still one of the most inefficient scorer. He still took the ball out of scotties hands. He played hero ball all the time because he bets on himself. His on ball defense was nowhere near the level of 2019. In fact if we traded Fred the last 2 seasons the Raptors would be in a better spot now. He was a flawed player that kept this team at .500. We were right to have wanted him gone all along.
I wouldn't want to play a player that only plays the right way after he gets a 40 million dollar contract.
As we speak another FVV masterclass. 38% shooting 1/7 from 3
Obsessed with his poor shooting doesnt mean he isnt a good player. That was my point all year ... Its clear to see how he elevates the rockets. He did not deserve the slander ... The sheer extent of it was ridiculous. Wrong take after wrong take. We are worse without him.
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People just needed someone to blame and point guards are often the first ones to get it. Let’s be honest, most people don’t really notice all the little things that are being done on the court so it’s no surprise that a player shooting 38% would get criticism. The same thing happened with Kyle.
But it is nice to see how wrong some people were last year. We even had people thinking we were going to be better because we swapped Fred for Schroder. We are not a good team and that’s due in large part to having Schroder instead of Fred. Look at the difference Fred has made in Houston. That team nearly has as many wins as they had all of last season.
But it is nice to see how wrong some people were last year. We even had people thinking we were going to be better because we swapped Fred for Schroder. We are not a good team and that’s due in large part to having Schroder instead of Fred. Look at the difference Fred has made in Houston. That team nearly has as many wins as they had all of last season.
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sbsat wrote:Chandan wrote:I don't see how it's ridiculous that he faced criticisms. He is still one of the most inefficient scorer. He still took the ball out of scotties hands. He played hero ball all the time because he bets on himself. His on ball defense was nowhere near the level of 2019. In fact if we traded Fred the last 2 seasons the Raptors would be in a better spot now. He was a flawed player that kept this team at .500. We were right to have wanted him gone all along.
I wouldn't want to play a player that only plays the right way after he gets a 40 million dollar contract.
As we speak another FVV masterclass. 38% shooting 1/7 from 3
Obsessed with his poor shooting doesnt mean he isnt a good player. That was my point all year ... Its clear to see how he elevates the rockets. He did not deserve the slander ... The sheer extent of it was ridiculous. Wrong take after wrong take. We are worse without him.
a bad shooter that shoots a lot makes him not so good of a player. Sure he could have took less shots and played off-ball a lot more, but he wasn't doing that. So there's that. He's better than Schoder though.

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There was absolutely nobody here who valued Norm over Fred and would rather have Fred sent out for what could have been realized in a trade and kept Norm.
Nobody.
Nobody.
Maxpainmedia:
"NYC has the **** most Two Faced fans, but we ALL loved IQ,, and that is super rare, I've been a Knicks fan for 37 years, this kid is a star and he will snap in Toronto"
"NYC has the **** most Two Faced fans, but we ALL loved IQ,, and that is super rare, I've been a Knicks fan for 37 years, this kid is a star and he will snap in Toronto"
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Los_29 wrote:People just needed someone to blame and point guards are often the first ones to get it. Let’s be honest, most people don’t really notice all the little things that are being done on the court so it’s no surprise that a player shooting 38% would get criticism. The same thing happened with Kyle.
But it is nice to see how wrong some people were last year. We even had people thinking we were going to be better because we swapped Fred for Schroder. We are not a good team and that’s due in large part to having Schroder instead of Fred. Look at the difference Fred has made in Houston. That team nearly has as many wins as they had all of last season.
We were under the assumption that the coach was not going to give Schröder more usage than his talent. Fred, on this team, would have been another season of the Fred show and would not be any more entertaining even if a few more wins came our way.
Maxpainmedia:
"NYC has the **** most Two Faced fans, but we ALL loved IQ,, and that is super rare, I've been a Knicks fan for 37 years, this kid is a star and he will snap in Toronto"
"NYC has the **** most Two Faced fans, but we ALL loved IQ,, and that is super rare, I've been a Knicks fan for 37 years, this kid is a star and he will snap in Toronto"
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Dennis 37 wrote:Los_29 wrote:People just needed someone to blame and point guards are often the first ones to get it. Let’s be honest, most people don’t really notice all the little things that are being done on the court so it’s no surprise that a player shooting 38% would get criticism. The same thing happened with Kyle.
But it is nice to see how wrong some people were last year. We even had people thinking we were going to be better because we swapped Fred for Schroder. We are not a good team and that’s due in large part to having Schroder instead of Fred. Look at the difference Fred has made in Houston. That team nearly has as many wins as they had all of last season.
We were under the assumption that the coach was not going to give Schröder more usage than his talent. Fred, on this team, would have been another season of the Fred show and would not be any more entertaining even if a few more wins came our way.
Context matters. Every single thread, post and topic was infiltrated by fred hate. He was labelled an awful player and an awful person. Called greedy. Called a midget. Blah blah blah... The point is he is a valuable player and houston is better because of him. All the slander he got on here was proven wrong. And as someone who knew it would he proven wrong the mass silence when it comes to him is no surprise
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sbsat wrote:Dennis 37 wrote:Los_29 wrote:People just needed someone to blame and point guards are often the first ones to get it. Let’s be honest, most people don’t really notice all the little things that are being done on the court so it’s no surprise that a player shooting 38% would get criticism. The same thing happened with Kyle.
But it is nice to see how wrong some people were last year. We even had people thinking we were going to be better because we swapped Fred for Schroder. We are not a good team and that’s due in large part to having Schroder instead of Fred. Look at the difference Fred has made in Houston. That team nearly has as many wins as they had all of last season.
We were under the assumption that the coach was not going to give Schröder more usage than his talent. Fred, on this team, would have been another season of the Fred show and would not be any more entertaining even if a few more wins came our way.
Context matters. Every single thread, post and topic was infiltrated by fred hate. He was labelled an awful player and an awful person. Called greedy. Called a midget. Blah blah blah... The point is he is a valuable player and houston is better because of him. All the slander he got on here was proven wrong. And as someone who knew it would he proven wrong the mass silence when it comes to him is no surprise
There is not a single player who makes over 20 million that wouldn't have made an improvement for last year's rocket. Hurray for them becoming a .500 team I guess?
I'd rather be rock bottom than a treadmill .500 team. Now the only advantage rockets have over the Raptors is that they've tanked for a few years already and is loaded with talent. They can afford to use Fred as a transitional piece moving forward.

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Chandan wrote:sbsat wrote:Dennis 37 wrote:
We were under the assumption that the coach was not going to give Schröder more usage than his talent. Fred, on this team, would have been another season of the Fred show and would not be any more entertaining even if a few more wins came our way.
Context matters. Every single thread, post and topic was infiltrated by fred hate. He was labelled an awful player and an awful person. Called greedy. Called a midget. Blah blah blah... The point is he is a valuable player and houston is better because of him. All the slander he got on here was proven wrong. And as someone who knew it would he proven wrong the mass silence when it comes to him is no surprise
There is not a single player who makes over 20 million that wouldn't have made an improvement for last year's rocket. Hurray for them becoming a .500 team I guess?
I'd rather be rock bottom than a treadmill .500 team. Now the only advantage rockets have over the Raptors is that they've tanked for a few years already and is loaded with talent. They can afford to use Fred as a transitional piece moving forward.
Nah you cant be this obtuse. Perhaps compare the rockets this year vs last rather than just saying they are a 500 team. Brutal.
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NBA TV Canada showing an old Open Gym featuring rookie Justin Champagnie. One on one with Pascal in practice, solid 905 play along with Banton, Flynn, Bonga. Masks on the bench. Seems nostalgic even though only a couple years ago.
I wish he'd turned into a rotation player, seemed to be a high character guy, great work ethic.
I wish he'd turned into a rotation player, seemed to be a high character guy, great work ethic.
There goes my hero. Watch him as he goes.