Team Canada Basketball Thread V3.0

[SharoneWright]

Well, I hope Leonard Miller at least got a lot of love from the brass. Maybe a souvenir 2023 jersey.

Love these guys with the heart and the intention.

[Hair Canada]

Really agree with TheFutureMM here, for several reasons:

1. The idea that Canada basketball wistles and all of our NBA players just come marching in is farfetched. We've seen how that works out in 2019. Guys like Wiggins said it quite clearly -- they don't want to play in the WC. It's their right. But let's not pretend that it's all up to Basketball Canada. NBA teams also apply presures on players not to go to these events, and when the players are young, didn't get paid yet, and are fighting for minutes and their place in the team, teams have quite a bit of leverage.

2. Even if all the players did want to come and the teams were okay with it, there's something to be said about team construction, hierarchy, chemistry, and roles. A tournament like this is akin to the NBA playoffs. You need to quickly establish a hierarchy of 8-9 players and then run with it unless things really go south and you have to improvise (e.g., injuries or a game going so bad that you need a Hail Mary).

3. Related to 2: Suppose everyone did want to come and you manage to bring 12 NBA guys, including a couple of younger ones like Sharpe and Mathurin who many would have liked to see here. Both are currently terrible defenders and can really hurt a win-now team on that end, on top of their offensive inefficiencies. So you bring them and then likely don't give them playing time because they hurt you. Now, if you don't give the Scrubbs playing time, nothing happens. But if you get Sharpe and Mathurin to commit a month and a half that could be dedicated to player development and then you keep them on the bench you risk alienating them and losing their good faith for the future. Same goes for more seasoned NBA players. I remember Boucher once playing with the national team and being relegated to the end of the bench. I suspect this might have had something to do with him not feeling like suiting up anymore.

4. I also agree with TheFutureMM that if CB just turned around and said to all the Winter Core guys: "Hey, we know we said you'll get priority. But we suddenly change our minds and don't feel like it anymore, so none of you gets a real chance at making the team" that would not fly very well with them, and rightfully so. So by doing that you're also alienating your winter core and hurting future commitments, all for bringing in guys who might not even get serious playing time and are likely to feel bitter about it. For Ejim, the WC is a great reward for years of commitment and dedication to the program. He would have no problem getting 5 minutes from the bench and giving everything he has in those 5 minutes while being a net positive in the lockers. But if guys like Lyles or Boucher are relegated to the end of the bench and get 5 minutes they might become resentful for having to spend a month and a half of their time and fly half way around the world just for this.

[Elmago]

There is a clear difference between hockey and basketball players when representing your country, whether people want to admit it or not. All these excuses are just that, excuses.

I distinctly remember Mario Lemieux sitting out NHL games to make sure he was rested for the Olympics, which is is pretty hilarious.

[Mattd97]

I'd be very interested to see how many of our top Euro guys would still be down to roll up to the November/February qualifiers if every subsequent summer the message to them was going to be, "thanks - we're gonna let the other guys take it from here".

isnt that essentially what we do for the majority of the squad that isnt ejim/scrubbs anyways? tbh and maybe alexander probably not on the full team as barrett imagined back in vegas when everyone committed

[ItsDanger]

I'd be very interested to see how many of our top Euro guys would still be down to roll up to the November/February qualifiers if every subsequent summer the message to them was going to be, "thanks - we're gonna let the other guys take it from here".

isnt that essentially what we do for the majority of the squad that isnt ejim/scrubbs anyways? tbh and maybe alexander probably not on the full team as barrett imagined back in vegas when everyone committed

Also, what about the USA players in qualifying phase? They were all replaced by NBA players. Nobody remembers this fact? The entire argument presented here is disingenuous. Bottom line, you take the most talented players.

[Hair Canada]

The US has a pool of like a 1000 players, playing in Europe, the G League and elswhere to draw from whenever they need without thinking too much about it. Someone feels disgrantled and doesn't want to play anymore? Not a problem. There are 10 others who'd be happy to play and have no problem getting the job done (securing a spot in a big tournament).

Also, the main point here is about the strategy that CB decided to go with. After the colosal failure in getting players to commit in 2019, they decided to take a page out of the Amercian team's book and go with a multi-year commitment, with the hopes of both getting more players to show up (in which they succeeded) and building better team chemistry over time. So far, I think this exercise has been rather successful, at least in terms of players' turn up. If they want to try something similar for the next cycle (2027-28), they can't just break their word first chance they get and let in anyone who suddenly feels like it.

[mojo13]

I'd be very interested to see how many of our top Euro guys would still be down to roll up to the November/February qualifiers if every subsequent summer the message to them was going to be, "thanks - we're gonna let the other guys take it from here".

isnt that essentially what we do for the majority of the squad that isnt ejim/scrubbs anyways? tbh and maybe alexander probably not on the full team as barrett imagined back in vegas when everyone committed

Tommy, Phil, Ejim, TBH, Chery, Alexander are all in the mix to make this team. Robertson was as well, until he dropped.
That's the core of your Winter Core right there.

I'm assuming Wiltjer was likley invited to camp as well.




And I fully agree with Hair/Future above. The Core strategy seems on track and working. This is still the best collection of talent Canada has ever assembled. Let's see how it does before we judge.

[steadysoul]

The US has a pool of like a 1000 players, playing in Europe, the G League and elswhere to draw from whenever they need without thinking too much about it. Someone feels disgrantled and doesn't want to play anymore? Not a problem. There are 10 others who'd be happy to play and have no problem getting the job done (securing a spot in a big tournament).

Also, the main point here is about the strategy that CB decided to go with. After the colosal failure in getting players to commit in 2019, they decided to take a page out of the Amercian team's book and go with a multi-year commitment, with the hopes of both getting more players to show up (in which they succeeded) and building better team chemistry over time. So far, I think this exercise has been rather successful, at least in terms of players' turn up. If they want to try something similar for the next cycle (2027-28), they can't just break their word first chance they get and let in anyone who suddenly feels like it.

I feel like it is important to point out that the US regularly updated it's pool of players every summer, but also had camp even if they weren't actually going to an event.

[mkot]

It’s BS. Somebody needs to tell Murray that a 26 year old doesn’t need months to recover.

C'mon now, it's FIBA, no one cares really. Even the Americans are sending in their C team. It's pathetic. FIBA is so mismanaged is not even funny.

Don't know how much you have watched Denver games but every time Murray was on the bench he got bunch of towels wrapping on his left knee which was surgically repaired. His (post season) numbers don't tell the story but you can clearly tell he has lost a step, his speed is down, his explosiveness around the basket has reduced and he has way less acrobatic finish around the rim like he could before he got hurt. It's hard to tell how well he had recovered really

Yeah he played like 10+ more games than guys like RJ and Brooks but he played 40+ minutes in most of his playoffs game and those were intense minutes. I'm disappointed too but I understand. I'm actually surprise it took him this long to drop out. Jokic almost right away bowed out.

And Denver just lost Cancar, their first 4/5 off the bench, in the tournament to an ACL tear. That got to make Denver extremely nervous.

At least he showed up to training camp making himself available for future games if needed.

[Gday_eh]

Big 85-80 OT win for Canada against Spain.

https://selecciones.feb.es/Game/20230817#boxscore

Looking at the stats, our starters all played around 29-32 minutes, while Spain 8 players over 15 minutes and their scoring was spread out more evenly as well.

Big games for Shai, Kelly, Rowan and Dwight (12/12).

We did take a hit when they were not on the court though with every other player except Dillon (with the starters) -10 or more.

Obviously, this won't be case against all opponents, so the staff will need to manage court time against lesser opposition to keep the starters fresh for the tougher games (harder as the tournament progresses......).

[DaFroMan]

I know its just friendlies but the boyz are looking good against some decent competition.

[Dino-Might]

The issue is not the winter core guys who understand they are not the best Canada has and are generally happy to play when they have the chance.

The issue is about getting enough rotation type NBA players coming out to play the qualifiers and the World Cup to actually qualify for the olympics in the first place. It’s all well and good that guys like Wiggins want to play in the olympics but if we don’t get there, it will not matter. So the summer core concept was to give an incentive to the NBA guys to promise that if they help get Canada to the Olympics over the three years by playing the qualifiers and World Cup, we’ll guarantee your spot on the Olympic team.

That’s valuable for guys like Joseph, Dort or NAW who might not make the Olympic team if everyone showed up.

My only issue is that they should be more strict in enforcing their policies. If a player does not play the games for any reason other than injury, they should not be guaranteed a spot in the Olympics. This would incentivize these guys to not just show up to camp but actually play the Olympic qualifiers and free up some extra spots for guys like Wiggins if we get there.

[God Squad]

I just want to point out that Jordi Fernandez and the team in general this year are doing a great job. Much better than I initially expected.

[WaltFrazier]

Really agree with TheFutureMM here, for several reasons:

1. The idea that Canada basketball wistles and all of our NBA players just come marching in is farfetched. We've seen how that works out in 2019. Guys like Wiggins said it quite clearly -- they don't want to play in the WC. It's their right. But let's not pretend that it's all up to Basketball Canada. NBA teams also apply presures on players not to go to these events, and when the players are young, didn't get paid yet, and are fighting for minutes and their place in the team, teams have quite a bit of leverage.

2. Even if all the players did want to come and the teams were okay with it, there's something to be said about team construction, hierarchy, chemistry, and roles. A tournament like this is akin to the NBA playoffs. You need to quickly establish a hierarchy of 8-9 players and then run with it unless things really go south and you have to improvise (e.g., injuries or a game going so bad that you need a Hail Mary).

3. Related to 2: Suppose everyone did want to come and you manage to bring 12 NBA guys, including a couple of younger ones like Sharpe and Mathurin who many would have liked to see here. Both are currently terrible defenders and can really hurt a win-now team on that end, on top of their offensive inefficiencies. So you bring them and then likely don't give them playing time because they hurt you. Now, if you don't give the Scrubbs playing time, nothing happens. But if you get Sharpe and Mathurin to commit a month and a half that could be dedicated to player development and then you keep them on the bench you risk alienating them and losing their good faith for the future. Same goes for more seasoned NBA players. I remember Boucher once playing with the national team and being relegated to the end of the bench. I suspect this might have had something to do with him not feeling like suiting up anymore.

4. I also agree with TheFutureMM that if CB just turned around and said to all the Winter Core guys: "Hey, we know we said you'll get priority. But we suddenly change our minds and don't feel like it anymore, so none of you gets a real chance at making the team" that would not fly very well with them, and rightfully so. So by doing that you're also alienating your winter core and hurting future commitments, all for bringing in guys who might not even get serious playing time and are likely to feel bitter about it. For Ejim, the WC is a great reward for years of commitment and dedication to the program. He would have no problem getting 5 minutes from the bench and giving everything he has in those 5 minutes while being a net positive in the lockers. But if guys like Lyles or Boucher are relegated to the end of the bench and get 5 minutes they might become resentful for having to spend a month and a half of their time and fly half way around the world just for this.

You and Future MM and Mojo all make good arguments. I get it. I think though in a limited way, the chance of Murray not playing could have been anticipated and at least one younger NBA guard, outside the original 3 year group, could have been groomed.

And in general, even if Nurse's three year concept has been good, surely there has to be flexibility to bring in young NBA stars who blossom as NBA rookies just after the window began.

Part of the deal also has to be to make young players realize that playing competitive Fiba ball for your country is better summer development than working with a trainer and doing Rico type runs.

[TheFutureMM]

Really agree with TheFutureMM here, for several reasons:

1. The idea that Canada basketball wistles and all of our NBA players just come marching in is farfetched. We've seen how that works out in 2019. Guys like Wiggins said it quite clearly -- they don't want to play in the WC. It's their right. But let's not pretend that it's all up to Basketball Canada. NBA teams also apply presures on players not to go to these events, and when the players are young, didn't get paid yet, and are fighting for minutes and their place in the team, teams have quite a bit of leverage.

2. Even if all the players did want to come and the teams were okay with it, there's something to be said about team construction, hierarchy, chemistry, and roles. A tournament like this is akin to the NBA playoffs. You need to quickly establish a hierarchy of 8-9 players and then run with it unless things really go south and you have to improvise (e.g., injuries or a game going so bad that you need a Hail Mary).

3. Related to 2: Suppose everyone did want to come and you manage to bring 12 NBA guys, including a couple of younger ones like Sharpe and Mathurin who many would have liked to see here. Both are currently terrible defenders and can really hurt a win-now team on that end, on top of their offensive inefficiencies. So you bring them and then likely don't give them playing time because they hurt you. Now, if you don't give the Scrubbs playing time, nothing happens. But if you get Sharpe and Mathurin to commit a month and a half that could be dedicated to player development and then you keep them on the bench you risk alienating them and losing their good faith for the future. Same goes for more seasoned NBA players. I remember Boucher once playing with the national team and being relegated to the end of the bench. I suspect this might have had something to do with him not feeling like suiting up anymore.

4. I also agree with TheFutureMM that if CB just turned around and said to all the Winter Core guys: "Hey, we know we said you'll get priority. But we suddenly change our minds and don't feel like it anymore, so none of you gets a real chance at making the team" that would not fly very well with them, and rightfully so. So by doing that you're also alienating your winter core and hurting future commitments, all for bringing in guys who might not even get serious playing time and are likely to feel bitter about it. For Ejim, the WC is a great reward for years of commitment and dedication to the program. He would have no problem getting 5 minutes from the bench and giving everything he has in those 5 minutes while being a net positive in the lockers. But if guys like Lyles or Boucher are relegated to the end of the bench and get 5 minutes they might become resentful for having to spend a month and a half of their time and fly half way around the world just for this.

You and Future MM and Mojo all make good arguments. I get it. I think though in a limited way, the chance of Murray not playing could have been anticipated and at least one younger NBA guard, outside the original 3 year group, could have been groomed.

And in general, even if Nurse's three year concept has been good, surely there has to be flexibility to bring in young NBA stars who blossom as NBA rookies just after the window began.

Part of the deal also has to be to make young players realize that playing competitive Fiba ball for your country is better summer development than working with a trainer and doing Rico type runs.

I'm with you. It's hard arguing against a lot of you guys here because as I was typing up my post, I sat back and said to myself, "damn it would have been nice if Nembhard had got the invite instead of Cherry". Andrew has been a big part of the program both in his youth and in 2018/2019. I think overall, the strategy as developed has been a net positive, but there could be slight leeway in cases like this year where a guy who has been around the program gets a last minute call-up based on need and I'd be OK with it.

I've been on record countless times on here saying I'd be cool if Wiggins was first up for a replacement spot when the Olympics roll around barring in mind someone in the core decides they can't play (Brissett being a good example this year).

I just don't think swapping out everyone for the best talent every year is the right approach.

[MoMan24]

So Murray hasn't played in any friendly matches yet. Has he been ruled out? Our first real match is a week from today on Aug 25th. We have one more friendly today against the Dominican Republic. How can you just throw Murray in the fire with a warm up games? Man I wish I can watch our team with SGA, Murray, Wiggins and Barret as the 4 scoring threats with Olynyk, Brooks, Dort, Boucher, Powell, NAW, Lyles and Joseph playing off them. Hope we can see that in the Olympics. Still excited to watch this Fiba tournament. Btw Barret is looking great. He is growing on me and I wouldn't mind trading Pascal for him plus assets.

[Hair Canada]

Really agree with TheFutureMM here, for several reasons:

1. The idea that Canada basketball wistles and all of our NBA players just come marching in is farfetched. We've seen how that works out in 2019. Guys like Wiggins said it quite clearly -- they don't want to play in the WC. It's their right. But let's not pretend that it's all up to Basketball Canada. NBA teams also apply presures on players not to go to these events, and when the players are young, didn't get paid yet, and are fighting for minutes and their place in the team, teams have quite a bit of leverage.

2. Even if all the players did want to come and the teams were okay with it, there's something to be said about team construction, hierarchy, chemistry, and roles. A tournament like this is akin to the NBA playoffs. You need to quickly establish a hierarchy of 8-9 players and then run with it unless things really go south and you have to improvise (e.g., injuries or a game going so bad that you need a Hail Mary).

3. Related to 2: Suppose everyone did want to come and you manage to bring 12 NBA guys, including a couple of younger ones like Sharpe and Mathurin who many would have liked to see here. Both are currently terrible defenders and can really hurt a win-now team on that end, on top of their offensive inefficiencies. So you bring them and then likely don't give them playing time because they hurt you. Now, if you don't give the Scrubbs playing time, nothing happens. But if you get Sharpe and Mathurin to commit a month and a half that could be dedicated to player development and then you keep them on the bench you risk alienating them and losing their good faith for the future. Same goes for more seasoned NBA players. I remember Boucher once playing with the national team and being relegated to the end of the bench. I suspect this might have had something to do with him not feeling like suiting up anymore.

4. I also agree with TheFutureMM that if CB just turned around and said to all the Winter Core guys: "Hey, we know we said you'll get priority. But we suddenly change our minds and don't feel like it anymore, so none of you gets a real chance at making the team" that would not fly very well with them, and rightfully so. So by doing that you're also alienating your winter core and hurting future commitments, all for bringing in guys who might not even get serious playing time and are likely to feel bitter about it. For Ejim, the WC is a great reward for years of commitment and dedication to the program. He would have no problem getting 5 minutes from the bench and giving everything he has in those 5 minutes while being a net positive in the lockers. But if guys like Lyles or Boucher are relegated to the end of the bench and get 5 minutes they might become resentful for having to spend a month and a half of their time and fly half way around the world just for this.

You and Future MM and Mojo all make good arguments. I get it. I think though in a limited way, the chance of Murray not playing could have been anticipated and at least one younger NBA guard, outside the original 3 year group, could have been groomed.

And in general, even if Nurse's three year concept has been good, surely there has to be flexibility to bring in young NBA stars who blossom as NBA rookies just after the window began.

Part of the deal also has to be to make young players realize that playing competitive Fiba ball for your country is better summer development than working with a trainer and doing Rico type runs.

I'm with you. It's hard arguing against a lot of you guys here because as I was typing up my post, I sat back and said to myself, "damn it would have been nice if Nembhard had got the invite instead of Cherry". Andrew has been a big part of the program both in his youth and in 2018/2019. I think overall, the strategy as developed has been a net positive, but there could be slight leeway in cases like this year where a guy who has been around the program gets a last minute call-up based on need and I'd be OK with it.

I've been on record countless times on here saying I'd be cool if Wiggins was first up for a replacement spot when the Olympics roll around barring in mind someone in the core decides they can't play (Brissett being a good example this year).

I just don't think swapping out everyone for the best talent every year is the right approach.

Yes, I agree Nembhard could have been the one exception. Wasn't in a position to commmit as a college player so it could be argued that he's on a special category without upsetting anyone. And he's also the only young player I'd really want to have on the team at this point. He'd be a big improvement over guys like TBH and Cherry. I'm imagining him running the second unit offense and setting Edey (or Alexander) up at the basket while bringing solid defense.

That said, I'll say again that we don't really know how things transpired. It's possible that Canada Basketball was interested but Nembhard (and Mthurin) were "warmly advised" by the team to sit out. Unlike Haliburton, who just got his big payment, they are both rookies fighting for their position in team hierarchy and are more suseptible to being convinced not to play.

[ItsDanger]

You have a window here where the traditional FIBA powerhouse teams are weak in top end talent. You can see the difference between Spain & Canada very clearly, its chemistry and execution where they have a clear advantage even without great talent.

Canada doesn't have a pure PG to organize the offense, lot of SGs or combos that are playing the role as best they can. And it shows clearly during the games.

[mojo13]

I'm almost certain Nembhard and Mathurin were invited to camp and they turned down the invite (as most young players tend to do) Not sure about Sharpe, but I'd guess the same (agents & NBA clubs are typically going to advise young players not to play). Perhaps they were not promised a spot, but I'm sure they were wanted at camp by Canada Basketball.

[TheFutureMM]

With all of the exhibition games done and our roster seemingly set (Murray was the last domino) - thought it might be interesting to see how some of the bookies were looking at us. Here are Bet365s latest odds that are applicable to us...

To win our Group (France, Latvia, and Lebanon):

France @ 1.8
Canada @ 2.1
Latvia @ 17.0
Lebanon @ 151.0 (!)

To win Outright:

USA @ 1.9
France @ 8.5
Australia @ 10.0
Canada @ 11.0
Spain @ 13.0
Serbia @ 13.0 (?)
Slovenia @ 17.0

Tournament MVP:

Brunson @ 5.5
Edwards @ 6.0
Ingram @ 7.0
Haliburton @ 8.0
Bridges @ 11.0
SGA @ 11.0

Leading Scorer:

SGA @ 4.25
Luka @ 4.5
Bogdan @ 9.0

I will say I'm surprised at France being given the (slight) edge against us. I really thought Spain between the two would have been favoured higher. Just goes to show how strong our grouping is that 3 of the teams in our pre-knockout stage are in the top 5 most likely to win the whole thing.