Draft Thread Part 4

[God Squad]

Who are the guaranteed all stars? Cade? Green?

There are no "Guaranteed stars". But I think they have the highest chance at reaching it. But lets be honest here, players from the lotto or later have a chance just like anyone else. It's just up to Masai and Bobby to find the gems.

[billy_hoyle]

Team needs a bucket getter. Hope we go BPA not need.

So... You want _____? A bucket getter might not be BPA.

[nabbs]

Josh Giddey will be playing exhibition games for Australia against the US and other teams in July. He is the only lotto prospect we'll get to see pre draft play against decent competition (exhibition game caveats and all).

U mean other than Sengun literally playing meaningful basketball games against canada and Nurse for Olympic qualifiers, right?

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

I didn't know he was playing in the Olympics

[Indeed]

With each subsequent post Sengun gets taller and taller. When these draft threads started he was 6'9, then later he was 6'10, and now he's 6'11. I imagine by draft night he will be 7'2.

You know people can grow right?

He was fat and lost weight. This is why his athleticism took off.

He is 6'10 barefoot (measurements are taken in Turkey this way) and 6'11 in shoes. He's 18 and growing.

My favourite reason to draft Sengun. He was once fat and then he lost weight. At 18 years old and in a Men's league too.

I think biglottoballs needs to provide evidence, otherwise, he shouldn't be providing fake news?

The official list height seems to match or being taller than the record in NBA.
For example, Jan Vesely was previously measured 6'11 in NBA, now at 7'0, which seems to be including showed on the Turkey league measurement.
Jerret Grant was and is 6'10.
By that logic, Sengun is rounded up to 6'9 (same as how NBA listed), so I am not sure how it becomes 6'11
https://www.eurobasket.com/Turkey/basketball-Players.aspx

As for transitioning to NBA, the rebounding will translate, but PnR and finishing will depend. The highlights of Sengun were against smaller C or slow footed, but in the NBA, the C will be long and quick, so that would be a question there.

Meanwhile, I am not seeing we draft Sengun who plays the same position with Siakam (same postup location), and defense is the biggest concern if he even gets minutes under Nurse (the perimeter defense and shot blocking is unlikely to translate at the same rate).

[ATLTimekeeper]

My bad I meant to bold Jokic. Jokic is actually a player who as a centre you can build around. But do not be too confused as there are about 5 centres from each draft year and vast the majority you cannot build around. If we traded for the draft rights to Sengun that is one thing but we should be wing focused 1-10. If Raps surprise outside the wing scenario I think it is Barnes they'll pick. There was some talk of Knicks trying to package 19 and 21. That gets really interesting except for giving up on number 7 or 8 part without significant compensation.

It goes without saying that you can't build around most players in the draft. But let's go through your list, but cut it down to lotto bigs:

2011: Kanter, Tristan Thompson, Jonas Valancuinas, Bizmack,
2012: Anthony Davis, Drummond, Meyers Leonard
2013: Cody Zeller, Alex Len, Nerlens Noel, Steven Adams,
2014: Embiid
2015: KA Towns, J. Okafor,Porzingis, Cauley-Stein, Myles Turner (5)
2016: Poetl
2017: Zac Collins, Bam (4)
2018, DeAndre Ayton, Wendell Carter
2019: Jaxon Hayes
2020: James Wiseman

5/24 were absolutely great picks. And I decided not to include Drummond, who was the best player taken in that range and retained high value through his first contract. The only two guys that ended up better than him were Green and Middleton, both 2nd rounders. I didn't add Sabonis, even though he does play more C than both Porzingis and Davis, and he's overwhelmingly a great pick at that draft slot.

So, 20% good idea.

114 "everyone else picks." Here are the good ones: Beal, Lillard, Oladipo, McCollum, Randle, LaVine, Booker, Russell, Simmons, Ingram, Brown, Murray, Tatum, Fox, Mitchell, Doncic, Young, Sexton, SGA, MPJ, Morant, Barrett, Zion *(although he's a big), Herro? Ball, Edwards, Haliburton

27/116, 23% good idea. Doesn't seem earth shattering.

How many of the guards/wings here should a team build around? I'd argue very few. What your list identifies to me is that teams absolutely should not draft a "defensive/non scoring" C/big in the lottery. Almost all of them are wasted picks. Bam was the only one that worked out here, and that's because he improved his offensive dramatically in the NBA to the extent that teams could run plays through him. Otherwise, he's not worth very much.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Meanwhile, I am not seeing we draft Sengun who plays the same position with Siakam (same postup location), and defense is the biggest concern if he even gets minutes under Nurse (the perimeter defense and shot blocking is unlikely to translate at the same rate).

Siakam is pretty versatile. He spots up, posts up, he drives from the 3PT line. He also has experience playing with a big that has no range (Siakam-Poeltl 112 ORating/Siakam-Birch 114 ORating).

[Indeed]

Meanwhile, I am not seeing we draft Sengun who plays the same position with Siakam (same postup location), and defense is the biggest concern if he even gets minutes under Nurse (the perimeter defense and shot blocking is unlikely to translate at the same rate).

Siakam is pretty versatile. He spots up, posts up, he drives from the 3PT line. He also has experience playing with a big that has no range (Siakam-Poeltl 112 ORating/Siakam-Birch 114 ORating).

Birch played all the way at the corner, and the ORtg has a lot from defense to transition with Siakam leaking out? That is not what you want to based for a half court offense though, and Sengun is unlikely that type of big that can get you defense in the first year (I am not even sure he is quick enough like Poeltl).

Meanwhile, we saw what happened last year when we beg for a stretch big to play with Siakam, so that he can have better offense. I am not saying we should surround Siakam like he is the only star, but are we now thinking we are better off to surround Sengun and have Siakam as a Robin for him?

I just don't see we play both Siakam and Sengun, maybe Sengun and Boucher, but that wouldn't be a lot of minutes. Both 3 point shooting and defense need work. Maybe not as raw as Kai Jones, but still need 2 years.

[PhilBlackson]

We don't have a single player on our team that can consistently hit the rolling big man. Despite this I can see Sengun being effective.

He's the type of player that creates his own opportunities by being more available, pinning smaller guys in the post, and going hard for OREB.

Sengun is MVP caliber in the 2nd best league in Europe. At 17 he weighed 270lbs at 6'11. Size isn't going to be a problem for him, length however may be.

Masai has gone for inexperience but you can't teach "feel for the game" and teach players how to control tempo or use pace changes.

This is the prime reason why Masai is likely thinking Giddey or Sengun at 7th or 8th.

I can see Giddey becoming a bigger poor man's Steve Nash ten years later. He would dominate the Gleague and get a rotation spot by January.

With each subsequent post Sengun gets taller and taller. When these draft threads started he was 6'9, then later he was 6'10, and now he's 6'11. I imagine by draft night he will be 7'2.

You know people can grow right?

He was fat and lost weight. This is why his athleticism took off.

He is 6'10 barefoot (measurements are taken in Turkey this way) and 6'11 in shoes. He's 18 and growing.

Did he really?? Do you have a link to that?

If he did in fact grow to 6'10 / 6'11 in shoes that completely changes how I feel about him as a prospect because then he could legitimately handle playing C in which case he'd move into my top tier with Mann and Bouknight. I'd actually be pretty damn happy to take him if he is in fact 6'11, he'd be a steal.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Birch played all the way at the corner, and the ORtg has a lot from defense to transition with Siakam leaking out? That is not what you want to based for a half court offense though, and Sengun is unlikely that type of big that can get you defense in the first year (I am not even sure he is quick enough like Poeltl).

Birch sat in a corner, but he wasn't guarded there. He had 4 3s in his career up until he came to Toronto. So, in that way Sengun will also space the floor. I'm not sure about the defense to transition claim, and judging by your question mark you haven't looked into it, either.

Meanwhile, we saw what happened last year when we beg for a stretch big to play with Siakam, so that he can have better offense. I am not saying we should surround Siakam like he is the only star, but are we now thinking we are better off to surround Sengun and have Siakam as a Robin for him?

The idea is to draft the best talent.

I just don't see we play both Siakam and Sengun, maybe Sengun and Boucher, but that wouldn't be a lot of minutes. Both 3 point shooting and defense need work. Maybe not as raw as Kai Jones, but still need 2 years.

He'll be 19, and probably play sparingly early on, or possibly the Gleague. The idea is to draft the best talent in a situation where you have the best odds at landing a star player, if you think that's Kai Jones, make that case. Frankly, from what I've looked at there are very few players that produce like Kai Jones and end up being stars, so I view him as a role player candidate and not worth drafting with a mid-lotto pick. I've never seen an 18 year old put up numbers like Sengun in a European league. There have been better European prospects (Rubio was playing at a higher level for years and dominant in junior tournaments, same with Doncic), but Sengun has at the very least told everyone he knows how to play like a star. So, in my books he's a good candidate at 7.

[Indeed]

Meanwhile, we saw what happened last year when we beg for a stretch big to play with Siakam, so that he can have better offense. I am not saying we should surround Siakam like he is the only star, but are we now thinking we are better off to surround Sengun and have Siakam as a Robin for him?

The idea is to draft the best talent.

Define best. What is the "best talent" or quality?
To me he is showing his feel for the game, but may not have high upside (physical / measurement). More of a safe pick to me. His standout skill is finishing.

[WuTang_CMB]

With each subsequent post Sengun gets taller and taller. When these draft threads started he was 6'9, then later he was 6'10, and now he's 6'11. I imagine by draft night he will be 7'2.

You know people can grow right?

He was fat and lost weight. This is why his athleticism took off.

He is 6'10 barefoot (measurements are taken in Turkey this way) and 6'11 in shoes. He's 18 and growing.

Did he really?? Do you have a link to that?

If he did in fact grow to 6'10 / 6'11 in shoes that completely changes how I feel about him as a prospect because then he could legitimately handle playing C in which case he'd move into my top tier with Mann and Bouknight. I'd actually be pretty damn happy to take him if he is in fact 6'11, he'd be a steal.

He did lose 30 pounds, that we know for sure. No idea on the measurements

[WuTang_CMB]

Read on Twitter

[WuTang_CMB]

updated Ringer Mock 6.2
https://nbadraft.theringer.com/mock-draft

[ATLTimekeeper]

Meanwhile, we saw what happened last year when we beg for a stretch big to play with Siakam, so that he can have better offense. I am not saying we should surround Siakam like he is the only star, but are we now thinking we are better off to surround Sengun and have Siakam as a Robin for him?

The idea is to draft the best talent.

Define best. What is the "best talent" or quality?
To me he is showing his feel for the game, but may not have high upside (physical / measurement). More of a safe pick to me. His standout skill is finishing.

Best is the most impactful player. Sometimes that can be from physical/measurement aspects, like LeBron, Zion, Giannis, Rudy Gobert. Other times it doesn't matter, like Curry, Harden, Jokic, Doncic, Young. There's no rule there that applies to all or even most. His standout skill was applied at a higher level than all the other prospects in the draft, at an age younger than most of the prospects in the draft. If that's safe to you, than that's actually a credit to him as you don't think he'll bust. A bust @7 isn't helpful to the Raptors at all.

[DreamTeam09]

updated Ringer Mock 6.2
https://nbadraft.theringer.com/mock-draft

Every mock has us picking keon Johnson and he's the one player I really don't like and don't get the hype.

I don't see how he gets his offensive game off in the nba, especially when he's gonna be avg height to below avg on switches.

Jalen Harris has a better offensive game than keon.

[vulture]

I think there are guys that can contribute right away:

Franz Wagner
Chris Duarte
Moses Moody
Alperen Sengun
Usman Garuba

Both bigs can rebound and physically they can at least play bench units. These guys were already playing at a high level in Europe.

Wagner can easily step in and play given how much experience he has had with NT and Michigan, plus he is strong enough and his size/wingspan should allow him to guard multiple positions.

Moody looks like a good role player. Definitely 3 and D and he should be passable on defense because of that wingspan and overall he knows how to fit into a team. He played Monteverde and was a superstar role-player there.

Duarte should not take too long, just like Desmond Bane or Brogdan.

How could Sengun be able to contribute when Barnes is a better defender (taller and longer, 10 lb difference)? I don't see Barnes being ready for us, let alone Sengun, Wagner and Garuba being contributed off the bench in the NBA, maybe for G-League teams like the Rockets, Thunders, etc.

Moody and Duarte being more ready and lower ceiling may able to start, and usually bottom 1st are more NBA ready players with lower ceiling.

I think Barnes is the hardest guy to figure out. I don't think he is a starter or rotation guy right away because I think he wants to be a guard / playmaking wing. He doesn't rebound well, block shots / rim protect, or really guard frontcourt players - so I don't think he can be a PF or C currently. If he can switch to being a PF, which I think is his best role, then he might be able to play even without a shot.

Sengun can play PF easily. He plays with much more physicality than Barnes. To me, getting on the court is about making some type of impact, and while Barnes is a decent switchable defender, I'd say Sengun is a two-way threat to throw his body around and just play big. I don't even see Scottie being able to rim run, unless that is what he is developing now. At FS he was on-ball a lot and I just didn't see a ton frontcourt time. RaiQuan Gray was their grit.

Moody and Duarte are high floor guys, and I think there is always an appetite for those types in the lottery even. Cam Johnson drafted at 11, Mikal Bridges at 12, Justin Jackson at 15. Moody is probably the special case because he plays like a senior classman despite being only 18/19 years old. I don't know if Duarte will be lottery, but I am pretty sure Davion Mitchell is another upperclassman that will play right away in the NBA.

I think Barnes is an instant rotation because his defence is so good that the shooting can be negated by putting the ball in his hands in the second unit.
I can see him being on the floor for a championship team and if he can shoot it at an average % he will be one of the best players on a championship team.

[WuTang_CMB]

updated Ringer Mock 6.2
https://nbadraft.theringer.com/mock-draft

Every mock has us picking keon Johnson and he's the one player I really don't like and don't get the hype.

I don't see how he gets his offensive game off in the nba, especially when he's gonna be avg height to below avg on switches.

Jalen Harris has a better offensive game than keon.

The idea is he has all the athleticism / intensity on the defensive end and under our system, we would groom his game.

[DatHomieYouHaTe]

updated Ringer Mock 6.2
https://nbadraft.theringer.com/mock-draft

Every mock has us picking keon Johnson and he's the one player I really don't like and don't get the hype.

I don't see how he gets his offensive game off in the nba, especially when he's gonna be avg height to below avg on switches.

Jalen Harris has a better offensive game than keon.

Jalen Harris is very good. People in the Raptors organization are very high on him yet he barely gets any play time. He better get a ton this year cause this guy is a stud

[PhilBlackson]

updated Ringer Mock 6.2
https://nbadraft.theringer.com/mock-draft

Every mock has us picking keon Johnson and he's the one player I really don't like and don't get the hype.

I don't see how he gets his offensive game off in the nba, especially when he's gonna be avg height to below avg on switches.

Jalen Harris has a better offensive game than keon.

The idea is he has all the athleticism / intensity on the defensive end and under our system, we would groom his game.

Yup the basic hope for him is to develop him into something like a Donovan Mitchell type of player (who he has very similar numbers/percentages as a freshman) but an extremely athletic SG that can impact both ends of the court.

As the article referenced the idea is developing him as we have Pascal and OG whom he arguably comes in being more skilled than both.

Personally I'd like the pick but you'd have to have patience and know he'd take a few years before you really start seeing what you have in him. All that being said I'm really not a fan of the Ringer lol not a single one of them strike me as guys that actually followed sports growing up and definitely don't strike me as former players of any type lol that I don't really value their insight. I feel like they're just a group of guys that knew how to whip together a website and youtube channel to present themselves as experts but rarely do I find they actually know their stuff.

[Dalek]

Revisiting this article from Sam Vecenie and Eric Koreen that dicusses selecting a few different bigs:

Vecenie: In general, I think the Raptors would be one of the best possible landing spots for Kai Jones from the prospect’s perspective. Their track record with guys like this is remarkable. He has an incredible amount of upside due to his combination of fluid, functional athleticism as well as explosiveness. More upside than the other two, in my view. But I don’t think you could put him on the floor next year and expect him to consistently make the kind of reads defensively that centers need to make to be high-level defenders. So if they want to get someone who could be ready sooner, Jones shouldn’t be the guy.

Between Garuba and Sengun, I would personally go for Sengun for the Raptors given the specific roster construction that they have. The players are basically polar opposites in that Garuba is a potential All-Defense team guy who is exceptional within a team construct, but still hasn’t figured out a truly consistent offensive role. Sengun, on the other hand, is the most polished offensive big in the class but has some real defensive concerns due to his mobility and lack of length combination. He has incredible hands, real touch around the basket, a knack for being in the right position, and has even flashed some real ability to put the ball on the deck and make reads. He is second in a really strong Turkish professional league in scoring, rebounding and blocks as a teenager. But the team that takes him is going to need to insulate him a bit defensively in ball-screen coverages, especially early. It’s hard to imagine a team more constructed to do that than the Raptors. Anunoby is going to start making All-Defense teams as soon as next season. Siakam is a high-level defender, and VanVleet fights his ass off through screens.

If any team is going to get the most out of Sengun, I think it would be Toronto. His ability to score inside would really be terrific for them, as he is one of the most productive prospects to enter the NBA out of Europe (non-Luka Doncic Division) in a while. If they stick at No. 7, I think he should be pretty high up on the board. If I was ranking the bigs for the Raps, I’d have it Sengun, then Jones, then Garuba.

https://theathletic.com/2602370/2021/05/23/nba-draft-2021-discussing-the-raptors-options-with-prospects-guru-sam-vecenie/

Basically, there are all plus defenders in Toronto who could withstand having a mostly offensive big.

What was interesting is that Kai Jones would really benefit from being in Toronto's system. Kai is signed with Klutch Sports like the other top picks. OG is one of Klutch's signature athletes. I could see Klutch pushing hard to get Kai into our system because by the end of his first contract he could be a very well-paid.