Summer League Thread Part 4: Aug 14th Charlotte @7pm TSN2

[Dennis 37]

The toxicity this year is biblical. Geeze, 3 summer league games and the kid is banged up and all of sudden he's terrible?

Get a grip.

It's becoming increasingly harder to keep coming to this forum. Where a 20 year old rookie is being labelled a bust after 3 summer league games.

What I saw last night was a team that had a solid lead throughout the game based on sharing the ball. Should Barnes have declared, "Hey, I need my reps give me the ball?" No he should not. Barnes knows he's going to make the team. Others are fighting for a spot on this or any team, let them shine. If the game is not in doubt, why be selfish? The Raptor way is often a different top scorer every game.

5 blocks, when one probably has a bruised upper thigh, is quite enough.

I really like Banton. Is it odd that he doesn't have a contract yet? 16 bodies signed, will he be #17? Could the delay be related to holding an extra spot for 2 players coming back in a Goran trade?

Depth Chart:
PG: Fred VanVleet, Malachi Flynn, Goran Dragic
SG: Gary Trent Jr, Ishmail Wainright, David Johnson (two-way)
SF: OG Anunoby, Scottie Barnes, Yuta Watanabe, Justin Champagnie (two-way)
PF: Pascal Siakam, Chris Boucher, Sam Dekker,
C: Precious Achiuwa, Khem Birch, Freddie Gillespie,

[maternal85]

I'm ashamed to only realize this now, but we got a heck of a lot younger. Talent definitely walked out the door, but it's good to now have young players on the bench hungry for playing time

Don't worry. Watching too much ESPN can do that to you. I'm sure you were upset about the scottie pick as well ? In 2 to 3 years when these young talent are coming to their own, nba teams will envy us. You'll have 6'9 athletic guys with a 7 foot wing span all over the court, hopefully handling the ball and shooting 3's.

[BBallInSight]

I'm thinking we shouldn't have Barnes camping out at the 3point line. Let's get him just inside the half-court line. He can wait there for loose balls breakouts leading to undefended paths to their basket. Start him on open layups. Something achievable.

[Young_Buc]

OG's trajectory could be like DeRozans. Who just kept getting better because he put the work in. Last year's DeMar was the best version of himself. At OG's age he was a 16-19 ppg scorer (like OG) if he has his work ethic sky's the limit

[RedVanVleet]

I’m more disappointed in the coaching staff. They didn’t even give Barnes the ball to at least bring it up court. I don’t get the logic.

This kid does well in pnr’s, he’s a good facilitator, he can drive whenever he wants when he has the ball.

Instead for most of the game they sat him in the corner to ball watch. Two games in a row now this has happened.

hopefully this is just a Mutombo thing and Nick will be more willing to give him a chance to create with the ball in his hands (especially if he's coming off the bench).

But Mutombo will be his coach to start the year...

[positivetension]

The toxicity this year is biblical. Geeze, 3 summer league games and the kid is banged up and all of sudden he's terrible?

Get a grip.

It's not toxicity. You probably just don't understand all of the nuance and analysis of our advanced summer league realgm scouts.

[Mikistan]

I’m more disappointed in the coaching staff. They didn’t even give Barnes the ball to at least bring it up court. I don’t get the logic.

This kid does well in pnr’s, he’s a good facilitator, he can drive whenever he wants when he has the ball.

Instead for most of the game they sat him in the corner to ball watch. Two games in a row now this has happened.

hopefully this is just a Mutombo thing and Nick will be more willing to give him a chance to create with the ball in his hands (especially if he's coming off the bench).

But Mutombo will be his coach to start the year...

With siakam being injured to start I think Scottie starts with the big club for a month or two

[Pericles]

Viewers are seeing the lack of offensive polish and low scoring numbers from Barnes as a cause for concern, but his defense has been even better than advertised. I believe he has a real chance to become the league’s best defender.

When that defensive ability is added to his ability to rebound, handle the ball, and make great passes he already has more than enough tools to stay on the floor.

Nurse will not be able to take him out even next season. His +/- and advanced stats will be fantastic. We may not have got the alpha dog lead scorer we needed, but Barnes will have an immediate effect on his team winning games.

[Badonkadonk]

Having watched every minute of all 3 games, I don't get why people are being so negative.

This group of guys had a bad second game, talked it over and put in some great defensive effort and just dominated the hyped up Houston Summer League team.

It was also the first game where "positionless basketball" looked pretty functional without Flynn on the court to organize things.

Precious has been great but with more time with the team, I hope he starts looking to pass.

Ish is the best player on the team in my books so far. Love him coming off the bench for us to cause opposing scorers fits and try to throw them off rhythm.

I don't get why people are down on Scottie, unless they are just watching highlights and looking at boxscores. He does so many things well for a kid his age.

If you look at my draft posts, I'm a hard Sugg stan and still am. After yesterday's game I can see what the Raptors are going for team building wise and why Scottie was the pick. We are trying to innovate and get weird. We are asking guys who don't normally have the freedom to be versatile to experiment and play through mistakes.

I love the progress I'm seeing from the group with one exception: David Johnson. I was most excited by his pick up on draft night but the same thing that kept him out of the first round is making him seem like a waste of space on a 2 way deal. The man just spaces out and stands around, watching the game being played around him. His effort level just isn't fitting in with the rest of the group.

I'm really excited by the way the Raps want to play this year and there are going to be bumps and a lot of failure along the way. If this is a development year for a new positionless system which puts us in a position to grab another player who would thrive in a system like that in next years draft (and there are more than a few) - the time is now to do it.

Scottie fits that team vision better than Suggs. I'm going to hate watching him go Alpha playing for the Magic. But the Raps team and system has the chance to be more special than Suggs the individual player.

That is what is making this Summer League team fun for me. We are on to something special, but it isn't a star. It's a system we are finding the best players for. I think the system is going to be special. We have the right Coach, development staff and GM to make it happen so I'm glad we are taking the risk - even if it means watching bad passes, shots and ball handling while the team figures out how to make it work and who to make it work with.

Great post, I feel pretty much the same way on just about every point. I was also a Suggs stan all over these forums, but I can see what the team is doing and actually watching Scottie play has me more excited, not less.

I was really looking forward to seeing how he'd mix into the regular season rotation pre-Summer League, but after 3 games, I'd love to watch him down at the 905 playing 32mpg+ and just maximize his opportunity to handle the ball, facilitate and shoot without remorse.

[NotMyKawhi]

I'm not really mad, I actually think if you're going to start the process, a guy like Barnes is a good 1st pick in that process.

I just don't get the fans who think we will be good next year. Don't think they're being realistic tbh we lost lowery and the team we battled with? The bulls, got way way better. We got worse.


I'd like to say I'd hope we win but I think our ceiling is like 10th in the east. So I rather lose tbh that's just me

[LBJKB24MJ23]

Having watched every minute of all 3 games, I don't get why people are being so negative.

This group of guys had a bad second game, talked it over and put in some great defensive effort and just dominated the hyped up Houston Summer League team.

It was also the first game where "positionless basketball" looked pretty functional without Flynn on the court to organize things.

Precious has been great but with more time with the team, I hope he starts looking to pass.

Ish is the best player on the team in my books so far. Love him coming off the bench for us to cause opposing scorers fits and try to throw them off rhythm.

I don't get why people are down on Scottie, unless they are just watching highlights and looking at boxscores. He does so many things well for a kid his age.

If you look at my draft posts, I'm a hard Sugg stan and still am. After yesterday's game I can see what the Raptors are going for team building wise and why Scottie was the pick. We are trying to innovate and get weird. We are asking guys who don't normally have the freedom to be versatile to experiment and play through mistakes.

I love the progress I'm seeing from the group with one exception: David Johnson. I was most excited by his pick up on draft night but the same thing that kept him out of the first round is making him seem like a waste of space on a 2 way deal. The man just spaces out and stands around, watching the game being played around him. His effort level just isn't fitting in with the rest of the group.

I'm really excited by the way the Raps want to play this year and there are going to be bumps and a lot of failure along the way. If this is a development year for a new positionless system which puts us in a position to grab another player who would thrive in a system like that in next years draft (and there are more than a few) - the time is now to do it.

Scottie fits that team vision better than Suggs. I'm going to hate watching him go Alpha playing for the Magic. But the Raps team and system has the chance to be more special than Suggs the individual player.

That is what is making this Summer League team fun for me. We are on to something special, but it isn't a star. It's a system we are finding the best players for. I think the system is going to be special. We have the right Coach, development staff and GM to make it happen so I'm glad we are taking the risk - even if it means watching bad passes, shots and ball handling while the team figures out how to make it work and who to make it work with.

Great post, I feel pretty much the same way on just about every point. I was also a Suggs stan all over these forums, but I can see what the team is doing and actually watching Scottie play has me more excited, not less.

I was really looking forward to seeing how he'd mix into the regular season rotation pre-Summer League, but after 3 games, I'd love to watch him down at the 905 playing 32mpg+ and just maximize his opportunity to handle the ball, facilitate and shoot without remorse.

same - wanted Suggs too but I am definitely seeing the intrigue of him developing. beam me up Scottie i'm part of the Barnes brigade now.

that move when he went right to left, faked left and then went right, up for a jumper over Kuminga, thats a pro move and that made me wet my pants a little.

[Steelo Green]

No one has said Barnes is a bust. What we are saying though is his O is not just a work in progress, but borderline non-existent.

First of all, this he could be a better Draymond is hoping for the best. We have a long ways to go.

The issue is players like Draymond are tertiary pieces. Great pieces, but the hardest piece and most important piece is the Steph/Kawhi/KD/Lebron.

I think most of us think Scottie will have a solid career simply for his D but this team needed star level scoring talent so badly and took more of the same that they already have.

Trae can’t play D (and remember Suggs is a very good defender) but is the most important player on Atlanta. Doncic and D, mediocre at best.

We keep looking for these 2-4 level players and think a 1 will come via a Kawhi trade that won’t happen again.

The chance that Scottie becomes a Giannis type is 1%. Taking the impossible “higher ceiling” is different than a guy who has a 50% chance of hitting. There’s levels to ceilings and in a vacuum everyone’s just saying Scottie has the higher ceiling because the Raptors drafted him.

[scuervo1]

Viewers are seeing the lack of offensive polish and low scoring numbers from Barnes as a cause for concern, but his defense has been even better than advertised. I believe he has a real chance to become the league’s best defender.

When that defensive ability is added to his ability to rebound, handle the ball, and make great passes he already has more than enough tools to stay on the floor.

Nurse will not be able to take him out even next season. His +/- and advanced stats will be fantastic. We may not have got the alpha dog lead scorer we needed, but Barnes will have an immediate effect on his team winning games.

Someone with better abilities than me should do a Barnes' compilation of all of his defense highlights after the Summer League is over.

[normgod6]

No one has said Barnes is a bust. What we are saying though is his O is not just a work in progress, but borderline non-existent.

First of all, this he could be a better Draymond is hoping for the best. We have a long ways to go.

The issue is players like Draymond are tertiary pieces. Great pieces, but the hardest piece and most important piece is the Steph/Kawhi/KD/Lebron.

I think most of us think Scottie will have a solid career simply for his D but this team needed star level scoring talent so badly and took more of the same that they already have.

Trae can’t play D (and remember Suggs is a very good defender) but is the most important player on Atlanta. Doncic and D, mediocre at best.

We keep looking for these 2-4 level players and think a 1 will come via a Kawhi trade that won’t happen again.

The chance that Scottie becomes a Giannis type is 1%. Taking the impossible “higher ceiling” is different than a guy who has a 50% chance of hitting. There’s levels to ceilings and in a vacuum everyone’s just saying Scottie has the higher ceiling because the Raptors drafted him.

i agree we need a first option type player but who could we have gotten to fill that role with the 4th pick? Because Suggs certainly doesnt project to be a first option as a small combo guard with a pedestrian wingspan, an average shot, decent handles, decent finishing, good but not Trae level elite court vision, great but not Rose level elite athleticism. In fact dont you notice that Suggs highlights have mostly been on the defensive end of the court? He has only shot 40% from the field, only shot 9 free throws (2 of them were intentional fouls). Id say that Sharife cooper has shown more potential to be a first option offensive engine in summer league. Suggs aint finishing in the paint or breaking people down like Sharife or making elite level passes to get people open layups.

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[Kevin Willis]

How has Johnson been looking so far?

[WuTang_CMB]

How has Johnson been looking so far?

showed good and not so good moments. Will need good development in 905

[720]

No one has said Barnes is a bust. What we are saying though is his O is not just a work in progress, but borderline non-existent.

First of all, this he could be a better Draymond is hoping for the best. We have a long ways to go.

The issue is players like Draymond are tertiary pieces. Great pieces, but the hardest piece and most important piece is the Steph/Kawhi/KD/Lebron.

I think most of us think Scottie will have a solid career simply for his D but this team needed star level scoring talent so badly and took more of the same that they already have.

Trae can’t play D (and remember Suggs is a very good defender) but is the most important player on Atlanta. Doncic and D, mediocre at best.

We keep looking for these 2-4 level players and think a 1 will come via a Kawhi trade that won’t happen again.

The chance that Scottie becomes a Giannis type is 1%. Taking the impossible “higher ceiling” is different than a guy who has a 50% chance of hitting. There’s levels to ceilings and in a vacuum everyone’s just saying Scottie has the higher ceiling because the Raptors drafted him.

i agree we need a first option type player but who could we have gotten to fill that role with the 4th pick? Because Suggs certainly doesnt project to be a first option as a small combo guard with a pedestrian wingspan, an average shot, decent handles, decent finishing, good but not Trae level elite court vision, great but not Rose level elite athleticism. In fact dont you notice that Suggs highlights have mostly been on the defensive end of the court? He has only shot 40% from the field, gotten to the line only 9 times (2 of them were intentional fouls). Id say that Sharife cooper has shown more potential to be a first option offensive engine in summer league. Suggs aint finishing in the paint or breaking people down like Sharife or making elite level passes to get people open layups.

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Maybe Kuminga? Of the three (Suggs, Barnes, Kuminga). I was highest on Kuminga earlier in the year. Despite how inefficient he is his size and skill looks interesting. I've heard a couple people bring up Jeff Green but imo Kuminga has a much more versatile game. He's only 18 too.

I'm good with Barnes too though.

Personally I'm not really worried about Barnes being a future number one option because we're probably getting another lotto pick soon anyways, hopefully with that one we get a Emoni, Banchero type.

[mademan]

I was big on Cooper too. Been saying he has one of the best BBIQ's coming out of college i've seen in a while. He runs the PnR like a 10 year vet

[Dalek]

Interesting ESPN article on summer league.

Biggest disappointment references Cade and it sounds a lot like the Scottie Barnes' treatment, honestly:

Schmitz: Watching Cade Cunningham stand in the corner while either Killian Hayes or Saben Lee consistently started and ended possessions was maddening. Using Cunningham as only a part-time ball handler is stripping him of one of his best skills (passing) while making him look ordinary. The situation reminds me of when the Dallas Mavericks tried their best to make the Luka Doncic-Dennis Smith Jr. pairing work before ultimately giving Doncic the keys. With the ball-dominant Hayes clearly not the level of player the Pistons were hoping for when they surprisingly selected him seventh overall, Detroit would be wise to shift Hayes to a bench playmaker role, using Cunningham as the lead initiator with the starting unit.

Summer League MVP so far according to one writer at least:

Young: Jalen Suggs. There is a belief that Suggs is a culture changer, a player who can lift up a franchise with his polished professionalism and hard-charging competitive motor. So far in Orlando, that has been the case. He looks like the kind of player who wants to do it all, from rebounding and defending to scoring, passing and leading. There are some Russell Westbrook vibes to Suggs' makeup, and the Magic have to be thrilled that he fell to them at No. 5.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/32010903/nba-summer-league-2021-biggest-surprises-disappointments-far-las-vegas

Not sure if I agree with the Westbrook comp or that he is a culture changer, but he looks good like most guards look good who have decent athleticism. Summer League is a guard's league.

Scottie was not really mentioned but they did say the top five looks like the correct top five and they have all shown flashes. I have never scouted a draft class as much as this one, and it has always felt like it could change the league. These feel like they could be the new faces of the league in a couple years as the old heads go out.

[garbagnani]

Watch on YouTube

This guy might be my new fav player. PJ Tucker 2.0

It is unreal how wide he is. Like a widescreen tv.

Should we call him 16:9?