2023 Draft Discussion Part III

[DG88]

So this guy finally did a little vid on Keyonte, you can see some of the really dumb passes he made but not all of them. Really hate his upside as an on ball guy.

Watch on YouTube

Some of you guys will change your minds about him after seeing that stuff surely.

Was never high on Keynote George. I feel like his stock has been slipping for some time now. Yes he can score but he isn't some athletic wonder nor has an elite first step to blow by. Plus his decision making on both ends are underwhelming.

[Dalek]

So this guy finally did a little vid on Keyonte, you can see some of the really dumb passes he made but not all of them. Really hate his upside as an on ball guy.

Watch on YouTube

Some of you guys will change your minds about him after seeing that stuff surely.

He is an over-ambitioius passer like me. But during pickup when I connect it's damn sweet!

Keyonte is an undersized SG 6th man at best. Can see him as a streaky scorer. Terence Davis, if he can develop an average 3pt shot?

Watch on YouTube

Keyonte's defense might even be worse than Jett Howard's. I know they both had the same DBPM but honestly using the eye test Howard's D is better which is saying something.

I've thought pretty hard about the allure of Keyonte's kit and really the only thing which stands out is his ability to finish through contact well for a kid his age and stature. It's not enough for me.

It is weird but watching Michigan games for Bufkin I kind of get stuck on the upside of Howard.

All these combo guys like Bufkin and George are kind of bad passers and sort of small and not super athletic. Like it feels like trying to stuff them into primary position when they are not likely to be anything special in the NBA.

Howard is a 6'8 shooting guard with a positive assist to turnover ratio and can run pick and roll, can score the ball off movement, create for himself, or spot up. He has a Paul George type of handle at his size. He does get caught flat-footed on defense but from what I have seen he competes just takes bad angles. Basically he is fixable.

I mean as a plus sized SG with advance feel for the game, a NBA dad, how does he fail? If Toronto is committed to size why not him? All these combo guys will have to outcompete Dowtin Jr. and I am not convinced they are 100% better.

[Psubs]

He is an over-ambitioius passer like me. But during pickup when I connect it's damn sweet!

Keyonte is an undersized SG 6th man at best. Can see him as a streaky scorer. Terence Davis, if he can develop an average 3pt shot?

Watch on YouTube

Keyonte's defense might even be worse than Jett Howard's. I know they both had the same DBPM but honestly using the eye test Howard's D is better which is saying something.

I've thought pretty hard about the allure of Keyonte's kit and really the only thing which stands out is his ability to finish through contact well for a kid his age and stature. It's not enough for me.

It is weird but watching Michigan games for Bufkin I kind of get stuck on the upside of Howard.

All these combo guys like Bufkin and George are kind of bad passers and sort of small and not super athletic. Like it feels like trying to stuff them into primary position when they are not likely to be anything special in the NBA.

Howard is a 6'8 shooting guard with a positive assist to turnover ratio and can run pick and roll, can score the ball off movement, create for himself, or spot up. He has a Paul George type of handle at his size. He does get caught flat-footed on defense but from what I have seen he competes just takes bad angles. Basically he is fixable.

I mean as a plus sized SG with advance feel for the game, a NBA dad, how does he fail? If Toronto is committed to size why not him? All these combo guys will have to outcompete Dowtin Jr. and I am not convinced they are 100% better.

Do you think Jett can be a better shooting RJ Barrett? Or just like a Cam Reddish? Would you rate him in between Keegan and Kris Murray?

Zaire Wade couldn't make the NBA.

[REJECTEDBYCLARK]

Who was the guy who brought up college DBPM and historical success as NBA players? Keyonte and Jett basically have like a 0.5% chance of being good NBA starters according to that model and are almost guaranteed to be defensive liabilities. Is the offense transcendental enough to negate that?

[ItsDanger]

Who was the guy who brought up college DBPM and historical success as NBA players? Keyonte and Jett basically have like a 0.5% chance of being good NBA starters according to that model and are almost guaranteed to be defensive liabilities. Is the offense transcendental enough to negate that?

These advanced stats can't parse out teammates impact. You're always on the court with 4 guys vs 5 other guys in a 30 game sample size. Not great data. It's only been tracked for 12 years I think. For example, Lillard had .9 in this stat. I'd use it as an indicator of defensive ability relative to your team. +/- stats in NHL have notoriously been misinterpreted

That being said, it's a good argument that history shows it may be a predictor but need to dig deeper maybe.

[dozo]

Read on Twitter

The tweet leads to a thread of other clips and analysis.
Has anyone come across a Coulibaly interview on YT?

[billy_hoyle]

Not sure how you can dispute that the Magic have better young pieces with potential than we do.

What does that have to do with what I said? He said they're doing project 6'9 better and have better shooters. By what metric are they doing "project 6'9" better. They also aren't good shooters overall.

As far as your point, sure, they have more young guys than us in aggregate. Whoop-dee-doo! That's what happens when you're in the lotto every year.

But Banchero is overrated, doesn't defend, and is inefficient. Scottie had a better first year than that as a 4th overall pick. The only guys I'd want off their roster are Carter and Wagner, and maybe Isaac if he's healthy.

Their guys are better than our guys for the future. We only have Scottie and OG, and there’s already smoke around OG, so we might just have Scottie. If you’d rather have this mess of a roster long term that’s your choice, but I’d rather have what Orlando has to build on.

Banchero had a decent rookie year, better than Scottie’s second year. But this is not a comparison post. I’d just rather have Banchero, Wagner, Isaac, WCJ, Fultz to build with that just Scottie, and maybe OG. Like I said, we need to use Pascal like they used Vucevic to gain future assets.

This is a strange comparison. We have the best players on either team, and everyone in this discussion ignores them to set an arbitrary age cut off.

You guys are penalizing the Raps for having good vets. That's silly.

[Clutch0z24]

This board seems to fall in love with Defenders who have limited offensive skills....This is our issue we have too many of these guys on the team....We need natural bucket getters on the team since we have very few of them.

[Rapsfan07]

What does that have to do with what I said? He said they're doing project 6'9 better and have better shooters. By what metric are they doing "project 6'9" better. They also aren't good shooters overall.

As far as your point, sure, they have more young guys than us in aggregate. Whoop-dee-doo! That's what happens when you're in the lotto every year.

But Banchero is overrated, doesn't defend, and is inefficient. Scottie had a better first year than that as a 4th overall pick. The only guys I'd want off their roster are Carter and Wagner, and maybe Isaac if he's healthy.

Their guys are better than our guys for the future. We only have Scottie and OG, and there’s already smoke around OG, so we might just have Scottie. If you’d rather have this mess of a roster long term that’s your choice, but I’d rather have what Orlando has to build on.

Banchero had a decent rookie year, better than Scottie’s second year. But this is not a comparison post. I’d just rather have Banchero, Wagner, Isaac, WCJ, Fultz to build with that just Scottie, and maybe OG. Like I said, we need to use Pascal like they used Vucevic to gain future assets.

This is a strange comparison. We have the best players on either team, and everyone in this discussion ignores them to set an arbitrary age cut off.

You guys are penalizing the Raps for having good vets. That's silly.

I don't think it's a strange comparison at all. The question was simply who has the best young talent - Raptors or Magic.

[HumbleRen]

This board seems to fall in love with Defenders who have limited offensive skills....This is our issue we have too many of these guys on the team....We need natural bucket getters on the team since we have very few of them.

[ItsDanger]

This board seems to fall in love with Defenders who have limited offensive skills....This is our issue we have too many of these guys on the team....We need natural bucket getters on the team since we have very few of them.

100%. If they can be neutral defender, good enough for above average scorer.

[Yallbecrazy]

Who was the guy who brought up college DBPM and historical success as NBA players? Keyonte and Jett basically have like a 0.5% chance of being good NBA starters according to that model and are almost guaranteed to be defensive liabilities. Is the offense transcendental enough to negate that?

He brought up BPM for success rates in the NBA, the dBPM thing was for guys the Raptors like to draft.

[UnbelievablyRAW]

I like Trayce Jackson-Davis in the late second round too. Would love to move off Boucher/Porter/Flynn to get him to play the bench 4

[REJECTEDBYCLARK]

This board seems to fall in love with Defenders who have limited offensive skills....This is our issue we have too many of these guys on the team....We need natural bucket getters on the team since we have very few of them.

Best way to get that into our lineup right away will be via Anunoby/Siakam trade(s).

[Son Goku 25]

For a perimeter player id look for someone with the following which is a must for us.

Elite first step
Good shooter
Capable and willing passer
Avg defender if plus then great

The other stuff about how generate points is something to look deeper at later like a good pick and roll player, can they finish above the rim, floater game, in between game, using their body to shield defender etc we need someone like this with size as a guard preferably.

[ConSarnit]

For a perimeter player id look for someone with the following which is a must for us.

Elite first step
Good shooter
Capable and willing passer
Avg defender if plus then great

The other stuff about how generate points is something to look deeper at later like a good pick and roll player, can they finish above the rim, floater game, in between game, using their body to shield defender etc we need someone like this with size as a guard preferably.

So you want us to draft a guard with size who has an elite first step and is a good shooter? Surely that won't be hard to find. LOL.

[DreamTeam09]

Keyonte's defense might even be worse than Jett Howard's. I know they both had the same DBPM but honestly using the eye test Howard's D is better which is saying something.

I've thought pretty hard about the allure of Keyonte's kit and really the only thing which stands out is his ability to finish through contact well for a kid his age and stature. It's not enough for me.

It is weird but watching Michigan games for Bufkin I kind of get stuck on the upside of Howard.

All these combo guys like Bufkin and George are kind of bad passers and sort of small and not super athletic. Like it feels like trying to stuff them into primary position when they are not likely to be anything special in the NBA.

Howard is a 6'8 shooting guard with a positive assist to turnover ratio and can run pick and roll, can score the ball off movement, create for himself, or spot up. He has a Paul George type of handle at his size. He does get caught flat-footed on defense but from what I have seen he competes just takes bad angles. Basically he is fixable.

I mean as a plus sized SG with advance feel for the game, a NBA dad, how does he fail? If Toronto is committed to size why not him? All these combo guys will have to outcompete Dowtin Jr. and I am not convinced they are 100% better.

Do you think Jett can be a better shooting RJ Barrett? Or just like a Cam Reddish? Would you rate him in between Keegan and Kris Murray?

Zaire Wade couldn't make the NBA.

Zaire Wade isn't near 6'8 tho

I could get behind Jett Howard because of his size to skill ratio. You can hide a 6'8w ing player on defense easier than a small guard.

Anyone that ups the skill level and or shooting is a plus in my books. I do prefer players with size tho, pause

[C_Money]

This board seems to fall in love with Defenders who have limited offensive skills....This is our issue we have too many of these guys on the team....We need natural bucket getters on the team since we have very few of them.

Yes! I’ve been complaining about this for years. Get me somebody who’s a natural scorer for once.

[ATLTimekeeper]

I like Trayce Jackson-Davis in the late second round too. Would love to move off Boucher/Porter/Flynn to get him to play the bench 4

I can't see him going late 2nd without some crazy injury scare. He's too good.

[Dalek]

Keyonte's defense might even be worse than Jett Howard's. I know they both had the same DBPM but honestly using the eye test Howard's D is better which is saying something.

I've thought pretty hard about the allure of Keyonte's kit and really the only thing which stands out is his ability to finish through contact well for a kid his age and stature. It's not enough for me.

It is weird but watching Michigan games for Bufkin I kind of get stuck on the upside of Howard.

All these combo guys like Bufkin and George are kind of bad passers and sort of small and not super athletic. Like it feels like trying to stuff them into primary position when they are not likely to be anything special in the NBA.

Howard is a 6'8 shooting guard with a positive assist to turnover ratio and can run pick and roll, can score the ball off movement, create for himself, or spot up. He has a Paul George type of handle at his size. He does get caught flat-footed on defense but from what I have seen he competes just takes bad angles. Basically he is fixable.

I mean as a plus sized SG with advance feel for the game, a NBA dad, how does he fail? If Toronto is committed to size why not him? All these combo guys will have to outcompete Dowtin Jr. and I am not convinced they are 100% better.

Do you think Jett can be a better shooting RJ Barrett? Or just like a Cam Reddish? Would you rate him in between Keegan and Kris Murray?

Zaire Wade couldn't make the NBA.

I think he is closest to RJ with a bit more creativity off the bounce. Getting an RJ at 13 ain't bad. He manages to play on a playoff team.

Kris Murray was on the receiving end of Jett's best game. I think he could be as good as Keegan if he locks down on defense in his role.

Now I don't know the situation with Zaire but from Curry, Klay, Gary Trent, Gary Payton Jr. and Jerami Grant it all shows if you make the NBA no matter where you are drafted you tend to stick. Juwan played for like 18 years so you think his kid is good for 10 years.