Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9

[tsherkin]

Last few games without Barrett, and in particularly, having Agbaji on the last game, does that really make sense to claim he is surrounded by questionable defenders?

vs Lakers:

36 minutes out of Mamu and BI comes to mind immediately, and the bench didn't stun. They weren't all bad, but they certainly weren't dominating the game defensively. They murdered us from 3, of course, and Reaves obliterated us. One can take away what one will from that game, but we certainly weren't brilliant defensively around Scottie.

vs Charlotte

We had Poeltl back, but were still starting BI. We actually did pretty well against them defensively, we were just entirely incompetent on O. And of course, Charlotte sucks on offense, so it wasn't actually a stunning defensive performance, but still.

vs Boston

Obliterated from 3. Beaten on the offensive boards. Couldn't handle Derrick White. Only 24 minutes out of Poeltl. BI for 35 minutes. There are some themes developing here.

vs New York

Assassinated from downtown. Smashed on the O-boards. Only 24 minutes from Poeltl. BI still played.

You can talk about Agbaji all you like, but our problems extend as much from our frontcourt and rebounding as anything else, and while we are seasonally doing quite well in opponent 3P% (though we are 5th WORST IN THE LEAGUE at opponent 2FG% on the season), we were getting our asses handed to us from 3pt range these past 4 games, and in general by guard play.

Again. Scottie can do only so much. One guy can't defend the whole other team, and it's nonsensical to land that on him. All-D doesn't mean he's an anchor, it means he's a top-end defender at his position. He's a forward, not a center. We have a large problem with our frontcourt, which has been endlessly discussed round and round on the boards for a while. We're 16th in the league in oppFG% in the RA, 14th in the paint (non-RA), 25th at mid-range FG%, and 21st at defending ATB 3s (though we're pretty good about the corners).

We have deficiencies. And that's team-level stuff. Scottie can't just be ping-ponging all over the place and solving every issue we've got on that end of the floor. We're 20th in defensive rebounding, we have trouble defending above the break, we have difficulty containing guard play, we're a bit of a donut team and we have a couple of guys who don't defend particularly well, some of whom start.

That's where we're at.

[Tacoma]

4th percentile post up efficiency. Can't drive and kick. Can't pull up and shoot. You can't just give him the ball and expect good offense. He has to be an operative working off others, where others are then working off him. This is exactly why Bobby and Darko sat him down and gave him a new role to start the year, and we saw him flourish within those strict parameters.

When he gets pushed into a creator/decision-maker role, he's overextended by having to rely on his handle and shooting off the dribble.

This is the thing. Scottie's wonderful. We're finally using him the way we need to. We shouldn't try to go back to what wasn't working before just because we're struggling now. We've got him doing what we want him to do, and he looks pretty awesome doing it. Given how absent projection was for his scoring ability prior to the draft, he's come a huge way to be this strong for us as a scoring threat in this role. No need to screw that up now.

He isn't that kind of player, and no amount of squeezing the stone will draw forth blood, right? We need to find OTHER guys who can do that so he can keep crushing it in his current form. That's what BI is for, at least in concept (and over the first like 18 games or whatever). And RJ doing his thing around all that.

It's frustrating to see Scottie doing well and people suddenly wanting more and more and more. We finally just got him to a place where we can't really complain, find fault or anything. We should just be appreciating what he is bringing at the moment.

Are we really doing anything that different with him this year? In terms of team order, he was 2nd option and 2nd usage rate to RJ last year, this year he's 2nd option and 2nd usage rate to BI. His stat sheet (e.g., FGA, assists, rebounds) looks about the same as last year... with the one big exception: his shooting percentages - FG, 3PT and FT - are all way up so far (up until about 2 weeks ago) this year.

Like previous years, he's moody & more into the game, including better effort on defense, when things are going well. He's been regressing lately, shooting 29% from 3PT for Dec, reminiscent of last year. So it's not that we're using him that differently as much as his shooting proficiency has been driving this overall confidence impacting the way he plays, and lately as his shooting is off like last year, his overall play is also looking like last year.

[ATLTimekeeper]

4th percentile post up efficiency. Can't drive and kick. Can't pull up and shoot. You can't just give him the ball and expect good offense. He has to be an operative working off others, where others are then working off him. This is exactly why Bobby and Darko sat him down and gave him a new role to start the year, and we saw him flourish within those strict parameters.

When he gets pushed into a creator/decision-maker role, he's overextended by having to rely on his handle and shooting off the dribble.

This is the thing. Scottie's wonderful. We're finally using him the way we need to. We shouldn't try to go back to what wasn't working before just because we're struggling now. We've got him doing what we want him to do, and he looks pretty awesome doing it. Given how absent projection was for his scoring ability prior to the draft, he's come a huge way to be this strong for us as a scoring threat in this role. No need to screw that up now.

He isn't that kind of player, and no amount of squeezing the stone will draw forth blood, right? We need to find OTHER guys who can do that so he can keep crushing it in his current form. That's what BI is for, at least in concept (and over the first like 18 games or whatever). And RJ doing his thing around all that.

It's frustrating to see Scottie doing well and people suddenly wanting more and more and more. We finally just got him to a place where we can't really complain, find fault or anything. We should just be appreciating what he is bringing at the moment.

Are we really doing anything that different with him this year? In terms of team order, he was 2nd option and 2nd usage rate to RJ last year, this year he's 2nd option and 2nd usage rate to BI. His stat sheet (e.g., FGA, assists, rebounds) looks about the same as last year... with the one big exception: his shooting percentages - FG, 3PT and FT - are all way up so far (up until about 2 weeks ago) this year.

Like previous years, he's moody & more into the game, including better effort on defense, when things are going well. He's been regressing lately, shooting 29% from 3PT for Dec, reminiscent of last year. So it's not that we're using him that differently as much as his shooting proficiency has been driving this overall confidence impacting the way he plays, and lately as his shooting is off like last year, his overall play is also looking like last year.

How is he used is much different. Don't pay too much attention to usage rate, as it can be misleading. He is more of a finisher this year, he is more of a driver in transition this year. His scoring opportunities are easier. I don't know about the 3PT% thing, as December just started and it's really just two higher volume bad games from 3 driving those numbers.

[tsherkin]

Are we really doing anything that different with him this year?

Demonstrably, yes. I think ATL has largely covered it, but it's pretty different. Obviously, shooting out of his mind from 3 and working on his career-best FT% is helping a lot, but while his shooting volume is similar, the nature of those possessions is not really the same.

[Indeed]

Last few games without Barrett, and in particularly, having Agbaji on the last game, does that really make sense to claim he is surrounded by questionable defenders?

vs Lakers:

36 minutes out of Mamu and BI comes to mind immediately, and the bench didn't stun. They weren't all bad, but they certainly weren't dominating the game defensively. They murdered us from 3, of course, and Reaves obliterated us. One can take away what one will from that game, but we certainly weren't brilliant defensively around Scottie.

vs Charlotte

We had Poeltl back, but were still starting BI. We actually did pretty well against them defensively, we were just entirely incompetent on O. And of course, Charlotte sucks on offense, so it wasn't actually a stunning defensive performance, but still.

vs Boston

Obliterated from 3. Beaten on the offensive boards. Couldn't handle Derrick White. Only 24 minutes out of Poeltl. BI for 35 minutes. There are some themes developing here.

vs New York

Assassinated from downtown. Smashed on the O-boards. Only 24 minutes from Poeltl. BI still played.

You can talk about Agbaji all you like, but our problems extend as much from our frontcourt and rebounding as anything else, and while we are seasonally doing quite well in opponent 3P% (though we are 5th WORST IN THE LEAGUE at opponent 2FG% on the season), we were getting our asses handed to us from 3pt range these past 4 games, and in general by guard play.

Again. Scottie can do only so much. One guy can't defend the whole other team, and it's nonsensical to land that on him. All-D doesn't mean he's an anchor, it means he's a top-end defender at his position. He's a forward, not a center. We have a large problem with our frontcourt, which has been endlessly discussed round and round on the boards for a while. We're 16th in the league in oppFG% in the RA, 14th in the paint (non-RA), 25th at mid-range FG%, and 21st at defending ATB 3s (though we're pretty good about the corners).

We have deficiencies. And that's team-level stuff. Scottie can't just be ping-ponging all over the place and solving every issue we've got on that end of the floor. We're 20th in defensive rebounding, we have trouble defending above the break, we have difficulty containing guard play, we're a bit of a donut team and we have a couple of guys who don't defend particularly well, some of whom start.

That's where we're at.

Where we're at is that he is needs more to be the team most paid player.
Saying this is not his position to control the defense, while being the 3rd option on the team isn't going to justify his contract. Maybe he is near his value, but definitely not the player to carry the offense, so what other impact is he providing to justify that?

[Indeed]

4th percentile post up efficiency. Can't drive and kick. Can't pull up and shoot. You can't just give him the ball and expect good offense. He has to be an operative working off others, where others are then working off him. This is exactly why Bobby and Darko sat him down and gave him a new role to start the year, and we saw him flourish within those strict parameters.

When he gets pushed into a creator/decision-maker role, he's overextended by having to rely on his handle and shooting off the dribble.

This is the thing. Scottie's wonderful. We're finally using him the way we need to. We shouldn't try to go back to what wasn't working before just because we're struggling now. We've got him doing what we want him to do, and he looks pretty awesome doing it. Given how absent projection was for his scoring ability prior to the draft, he's come a huge way to be this strong for us as a scoring threat in this role. No need to screw that up now.

He isn't that kind of player, and no amount of squeezing the stone will draw forth blood, right? We need to find OTHER guys who can do that so he can keep crushing it in his current form. That's what BI is for, at least in concept (and over the first like 18 games or whatever). And RJ doing his thing around all that.

It's frustrating to see Scottie doing well and people suddenly wanting more and more and more. We finally just got him to a place where we can't really complain, find fault or anything. We should just be appreciating what he is bringing at the moment.

Are we really doing anything that different with him this year? In terms of team order, he was 2nd option and 2nd usage rate to RJ last year, this year he's 2nd option and 2nd usage rate to BI. His stat sheet (e.g., FGA, assists, rebounds) looks about the same as last year... with the one big exception: his shooting percentages - FG, 3PT and FT - are all way up so far (up until about 2 weeks ago) this year.

Like previous years, he's moody & more into the game, including better effort on defense, when things are going well. He's been regressing lately, shooting 29% from 3PT for Dec, reminiscent of last year. So it's not that we're using him that differently as much as his shooting proficiency has been driving this overall confidence impacting the way he plays, and lately as his shooting is off like last year, his overall play is also looking like last year.

If he is 2nd option, we should not be that far from missing Barrett.
It is more like Ingram and Barrett are the first 2 options.

[PushDaRock]

This is the thing. Scottie's wonderful. We're finally using him the way we need to. We shouldn't try to go back to what wasn't working before just because we're struggling now. We've got him doing what we want him to do, and he looks pretty awesome doing it. Given how absent projection was for his scoring ability prior to the draft, he's come a huge way to be this strong for us as a scoring threat in this role. No need to screw that up now.

He isn't that kind of player, and no amount of squeezing the stone will draw forth blood, right? We need to find OTHER guys who can do that so he can keep crushing it in his current form. That's what BI is for, at least in concept (and over the first like 18 games or whatever). And RJ doing his thing around all that.

It's frustrating to see Scottie doing well and people suddenly wanting more and more and more. We finally just got him to a place where we can't really complain, find fault or anything. We should just be appreciating what he is bringing at the moment.

Are we really doing anything that different with him this year? In terms of team order, he was 2nd option and 2nd usage rate to RJ last year, this year he's 2nd option and 2nd usage rate to BI. His stat sheet (e.g., FGA, assists, rebounds) looks about the same as last year... with the one big exception: his shooting percentages - FG, 3PT and FT - are all way up so far (up until about 2 weeks ago) this year.

Like previous years, he's moody & more into the game, including better effort on defense, when things are going well. He's been regressing lately, shooting 29% from 3PT for Dec, reminiscent of last year. So it's not that we're using him that differently as much as his shooting proficiency has been driving this overall confidence impacting the way he plays, and lately as his shooting is off like last year, his overall play is also looking like last year.

How is he used is much different. Don't pay too much attention to usage rate, as it can be misleading. He is more of a finisher this year, he is more of a driver in transition this year. His scoring opportunities are easier. I don't know about the 3PT% thing, as December just started and it's really just two higher volume bad games from 3 driving those numbers.

His USG rate shows it too. 27% last season vs 24% this season. Assisted 2's at 57% this season from 45%, assisted 3's at 92% from 74%.

Scottie, RJ and IQ all have lower USG rates this season with bumped up efficiency on the year.

[tsherkin]

Where we're at is that he is needs more to be the team most paid player.

He's a 40 million-dollar guy, which is approximately a quarter of the cap.

You're treating him like he's a top-salary guy as opposed to merely one of the two highest-paid guys on the team (the other is Ingram, at a meaninglessly-smaller amount). Kobe was 36%+ of LA's cap in the 09 season, for example. THAT'S your top-paid guy who has to shoulder all those burdens of expectations. You're errantly trying to treat Scottie the same way, and it doesn't make sense. He's neither that kind of player, nor is he paid like such a player.

Saying this is not his position to control the defense, while being the 3rd option on the team isn't going to justify his contract.

This isn't a useful comment.

The original remark was grinding him for the team's overall defensive performance, which was never a valid criticism. He's been defending fine, there is simply a finite amount of control over the team's defensive performance which he can exert... at any salary. Particularly not being an athletic 7-footer.

Maybe he is near his value, but definitely not the player to carry the offense, so what other impact is he providing to justify that?

You're talking about a guy who is giving us 20/8/5 on better than average efficiency while providing strong defense. You're complaining too much about him, and not about the real sources of our actual problems. It's unnecessary, man. Scottie's doing just fine for us this year.

We have OTHER issues. He is the LEAST of our problems.

[Indeed]

Where we're at is that he is needs more to be the team most paid player.

He's a 40 million-dollar guy, which is approximately a quarter of the cap.

You're treating him like he's a top-salary guy as opposed to merely one of the two highest-paid guys on the team (the other is Ingram, at a meaninglessly-smaller amount). Kobe was 36%+ of LA's cap in the 09 season, for example. THAT'S your top-paid guy who has to shoulder all those burdens of expectations. You're errantly trying to treat Scottie the same way, and it doesn't make sense. He's neither that kind of player, nor is he paid like such a player.

Saying this is not his position to control the defense, while being the 3rd option on the team isn't going to justify his contract.

This isn't a useful comment.

The original remark was grinding him for the team's overall defensive performance, which was never a valid criticism. He's been defending fine, there is simply a finite amount of control over the team's defensive performance which he can exert... at any salary. Particularly not being an athletic 7-footer.

Maybe he is near his value, but definitely not the player to carry the offense, so what other impact is he providing to justify that?

You're talking about a guy who is giving us 20/8/5 on better than average efficiency while providing strong defense. You're complaining too much about him, and not about the real sources of our actual problems. It's unnecessary, man. Scottie's doing just fine for us this year.

We have OTHER issues. He is the LEAST of our problems.

I have to disagree that he is the LEAST of our problems. If he is overpaid, it makes it difficult for us to be in the next level.
Again, if he is the 3rd option, how he is to justify being a quarter of the cap? A quarter of the cap to me would be either being the first 2 options who can create for himself and or others. Then another quarter is to carry the team on defense while not hurt the offense. The last quarter is to fill the roster. If he is not top 2 options that can carry the offense (clearly not from last year), so he is alright not needed to carry the defense?

[tsherkin]

I have to disagree that he is the LEAST of our problems. If he is overpaid, it makes it difficult for us to be in the next level.

But again, specifically, he is not overpaid.

Again, if he is the 3rd option, how he is to justify being a quarter of the cap? A quarter of the cap to me would be either being the first 2 options who can create for himself and or others.

That has not been the case on MANY competitive, contending teams. His value is in his versatility. You can't ask him to literally fill every role where we're deficient. He isn't a superstar, nor is he paid like one. You're asking too much of him relative to his salary and ability.

You are setting impossible and unreasonable expectations of a non-superstar player, and dramatically overstating his salary implication. He's paid comparably to Serge Ibaka and Marc Gasol from our title team, in terms of cap percentage (well, a little closer to Gasol, because Ibaka was paid $3m/yr less than Gasol that season), in that range.

[Indeed]

I have to disagree that he is the LEAST of our problems. If he is overpaid, it makes it difficult for us to be in the next level.

But again, specifically, he is not overpaid.

Again, if he is the 3rd option, how he is to justify being a quarter of the cap? A quarter of the cap to me would be either being the first 2 options who can create for himself and or others.

That has not been the case on MANY competitive, contending teams. His value is in his versatility. You can't ask him to literally fill every role where we're deficient. He isn't a superstar, nor is he paid like one. You're asking too much of him relative to his salary and ability.

You are setting impossible and unreasonable expectations of a non-superstar player, and dramatically overstating his salary implication. He's paid comparably to Serge Ibaka and Marc Gasol from our title team, in terms of cap percentage (well, a little closer to Gasol, because Ibaka was paid $3m/yr less than Gasol that season), in that range.

Glue guy was not paid near max on contending team, which is also what Aaron Gordon pointed out.

Exactly what I was pointing out.
Ibaka was multiple DPOY since his early career, which is why he is paid near a quarter (or closer to 20% with his lack of offensive creativity).
Marc Gasol was also all star selection for multiple times, and able to create off post up (2nd option), which is why he is paid near a quarter (or 23% with Grizzles)

Barnes is overpaid. He will need to show more impact on the defensive end to be a 3rd option on offense.

[Tha Cynic]

I have to disagree that he is the LEAST of our problems. If he is overpaid, it makes it difficult for us to be in the next level.

But again, specifically, he is not overpaid.

Again, if he is the 3rd option, how he is to justify being a quarter of the cap? A quarter of the cap to me would be either being the first 2 options who can create for himself and or others.

That has not been the case on MANY competitive, contending teams. His value is in his versatility. You can't ask him to literally fill every role where we're deficient. He isn't a superstar, nor is he paid like one. You're asking too much of him relative to his salary and ability.

You are setting impossible and unreasonable expectations of a non-superstar player, and dramatically overstating his salary implication. He's paid comparably to Serge Ibaka and Marc Gasol from our title team, in terms of cap percentage (well, a little closer to Gasol, because Ibaka was paid $3m/yr less than Gasol that season), in that range.

Glue guy was not paid near max on contending team, which is also what Aaron Gordon pointed out.

Exactly what I was pointing out.
Ibaka was multiple DPOY since his early career, which is why he is paid near a quarter (or closer to 20% with his lack of offensive creativity).
Marc Gasol was also all star selection for multiple times, and able to create off post up (2nd option), which is why he is paid near a quarter (or 23% with Grizzles)

Barnes is overpaid. He will need to show more impact on the defensive end to be a 3rd option on offense.

He’s the 33rd highest in salary. What are you going on about lol?

Also did you just blame him for the team’s defence?

At this stage I don’t think you can make unbiased takes on Barnes. All your comments are consistently negative and it’s clear you just don’t like him. This is fine - but don’t come in here making arguments using false narratives.

[PushDaRock]

I have to disagree that he is the LEAST of our problems. If he is overpaid, it makes it difficult for us to be in the next level.

But again, specifically, he is not overpaid.

Again, if he is the 3rd option, how he is to justify being a quarter of the cap? A quarter of the cap to me would be either being the first 2 options who can create for himself and or others.

That has not been the case on MANY competitive, contending teams. His value is in his versatility. You can't ask him to literally fill every role where we're deficient. He isn't a superstar, nor is he paid like one. You're asking too much of him relative to his salary and ability.

You are setting impossible and unreasonable expectations of a non-superstar player, and dramatically overstating his salary implication. He's paid comparably to Serge Ibaka and Marc Gasol from our title team, in terms of cap percentage (well, a little closer to Gasol, because Ibaka was paid $3m/yr less than Gasol that season), in that range.

Some of the "slander" is probably coming from him not making a really big leap despite the improvement this season in efficiency. He's been virtually the same player the last 3 seasons from a production standpoint. Other players the same age like Jalen Johnson and Deni Avdija in comparison have made giant leaps this season. Those guys are making a lot less money than Scottie too, especially in Avdija's case.

[Tha Cynic]

I have to disagree that he is the LEAST of our problems. If he is overpaid, it makes it difficult for us to be in the next level.

But again, specifically, he is not overpaid.

Again, if he is the 3rd option, how he is to justify being a quarter of the cap? A quarter of the cap to me would be either being the first 2 options who can create for himself and or others.

That has not been the case on MANY competitive, contending teams. His value is in his versatility. You can't ask him to literally fill every role where we're deficient. He isn't a superstar, nor is he paid like one. You're asking too much of him relative to his salary and ability.

You are setting impossible and unreasonable expectations of a non-superstar player, and dramatically overstating his salary implication. He's paid comparably to Serge Ibaka and Marc Gasol from our title team, in terms of cap percentage (well, a little closer to Gasol, because Ibaka was paid $3m/yr less than Gasol that season), in that range.

Some of the "slander" is probably coming from him not making a really big leap despite the improvement this season in efficiency. He's been virtually the same player the last 3 seasons from a production standpoint. Other players the same age like Jalen Johnson and Deni Avdija in comparison have made giant leaps this season. Those guys are making a lot less money than Scottie too, especially in Avdija's case.

Unless you have a top 5 player in the league, it’s very easy to look around and find a new player that is better than said player or is doing certain things better than said player lol. Terrible way to live life and enjoy sports. That’s where the “grass is greener” came from.

[Indeed]

But again, specifically, he is not overpaid.



That has not been the case on MANY competitive, contending teams. His value is in his versatility. You can't ask him to literally fill every role where we're deficient. He isn't a superstar, nor is he paid like one. You're asking too much of him relative to his salary and ability.

You are setting impossible and unreasonable expectations of a non-superstar player, and dramatically overstating his salary implication. He's paid comparably to Serge Ibaka and Marc Gasol from our title team, in terms of cap percentage (well, a little closer to Gasol, because Ibaka was paid $3m/yr less than Gasol that season), in that range.

Glue guy was not paid near max on contending team, which is also what Aaron Gordon pointed out.

Exactly what I was pointing out.
Ibaka was multiple DPOY since his early career, which is why he is paid near a quarter (or closer to 20% with his lack of offensive creativity).
Marc Gasol was also all star selection for multiple times, and able to create off post up (2nd option), which is why he is paid near a quarter (or 23% with Grizzles)

Barnes is overpaid. He will need to show more impact on the defensive end to be a 3rd option on offense.

He’s the 33rd highest in salary. What are you going on about lol?

Also did you just blame him for the team’s defence?

At this stage I don’t think you can make unbiased takes on Barnes. All your comments are consistently negative and it’s clear you just don’t like him. This is fine - but don’t come in here making arguments using false narratives.

Is he top 30 in the league? Is Ingram top 30 in the league? So we are paying 2 players in the top 50?

Am i blaming him on defense, or is he providing shot creation that impacts the offense that can justify his contract? Or is his expectation is on the impact of defense while being currently 3rd option on offense? I think people need to clear on this before discussing his value vs salary

[tsherkin]

Ibaka was multiple DPOY since his early career, which is why he is paid near a quarter (or closer to 20% with his lack of offensive creativity).
Marc Gasol was also all star selection for multiple times, and able to create off post up (2nd option), which is why he is paid near a quarter (or 23% with Grizzles)

Barnes is overpaid. He will need to show more impact on the defensive end to be a 3rd option on offense.

You are MASSIVELY overplaying this contract angle. I think I'm done talking about it with you, though, because we're just talking at one another now, so I'll move on. Agree to disagree.

Some of the "slander" is probably coming from him not making a really big leap despite the improvement this season in efficiency. He's been virtually the same player the last 3 seasons from a production standpoint.

Where did you expect the change?

He's 6'8 in shoes. He's not getting that much better as a rebounder. He's a very good passer inside the sets where he thrives, and he's a 5 apg guy. He isn't secretly Luka Doncic. He's doing a lot better in terms of efficiency while still managing solid point production. He's an excellent defender. He's a very good player. Shy of breaking out into an actual superstar, he's in a very good place, and there ARE limits to development.

Other players the same age like Jalen Johnson and Deni Avdija in comparison have made giant leaps this season. Those guys are making a lot less money than Scottie too, especially in Avdija's case.

Avdija has always been a better scorer than Barnes and was a 20 PTS36 player last year already. He's been on a linear increase path with his shooting volume for years now. He is very clearly a better scorer than Barnes, and that has been apparent for quite some time. He isn't the same level of defender, but he is a much more dynamic offensive player. Jalen Johnson's jumper is set for normalization, but he's an excellent rebounder who drives a lot and passes well, for sure. We'll see what happens when Trae comes back, and if he can maintain his playmaking and all that, but he certainly looks great so far.

But looking around at other guys isn't it, man. There's always someone better. There's always a better bargain deal or whatever. Barnes is not our problem. He is producing quite well. Moaning and complaining that he isn't a superstar, or that he doesn't do X or Y better than this player or that isn't helpful when our real problems lie elsewhere.

[PushDaRock]

But again, specifically, he is not overpaid.



That has not been the case on MANY competitive, contending teams. His value is in his versatility. You can't ask him to literally fill every role where we're deficient. He isn't a superstar, nor is he paid like one. You're asking too much of him relative to his salary and ability.

You are setting impossible and unreasonable expectations of a non-superstar player, and dramatically overstating his salary implication. He's paid comparably to Serge Ibaka and Marc Gasol from our title team, in terms of cap percentage (well, a little closer to Gasol, because Ibaka was paid $3m/yr less than Gasol that season), in that range.

Some of the "slander" is probably coming from him not making a really big leap despite the improvement this season in efficiency. He's been virtually the same player the last 3 seasons from a production standpoint. Other players the same age like Jalen Johnson and Deni Avdija in comparison have made giant leaps this season. Those guys are making a lot less money than Scottie too, especially in Avdija's case.

Unless you have a top 5 player in the league, it’s very easy to look around and find a new player that is better than said player or is doing certain things better than said player lol. Terrible way to live life and enjoy sports. That’s where the “grass is greener” came from.

Of course it's a comparison is the thief of joy thing. Just the reality of not having someone on the roster to get super excited about as a game changer.

[tsherkin]

Of course it's a comparison is the thief of joy thing. Just the reality of not having someone on the roster to get super excited about as a game changer.

I think we can all agree that we don't have a "That Guy" on the roster. That should be plainly apparent to all, I'd think. We need to be realistic about the guys on our roster, know that we aren't a contender, and work from there. This is a decent team. This isn't a team that leaves the conference, nor one which sees the ECFs, but it's a step forward from where we were if we can stay any sort of healthy.

[PushDaRock]

Ibaka was multiple DPOY since his early career, which is why he is paid near a quarter (or closer to 20% with his lack of offensive creativity).
Marc Gasol was also all star selection for multiple times, and able to create off post up (2nd option), which is why he is paid near a quarter (or 23% with Grizzles)

Barnes is overpaid. He will need to show more impact on the defensive end to be a 3rd option on offense.

You are MASSIVELY overplaying this contract angle. I think I'm done talking about it with you, though, because we're just talking at one another now, so I'll move on. Agree to disagree.

Some of the "slander" is probably coming from him not making a really big leap despite the improvement this season in efficiency. He's been virtually the same player the last 3 seasons from a production standpoint.

Where did you expect the change?

He's 6'8 in shoes. He's not getting that much better as a rebounder. He's a very good passer inside the sets where he thrives, and he's a 5 apg guy. He isn't secretly Luka Doncic. He's doing a lot better in terms of efficiency while still managing solid point production. He's an excellent defender. He's a very good player. Shy of breaking out into an actual superstar, he's in a very good place, and there ARE limits to development.

Other players the same age like Jalen Johnson and Deni Avdija in comparison have made giant leaps this season. Those guys are making a lot less money than Scottie too, especially in Avdija's case.

Avdija has always been a better scorer than Barnes and was a 20 PTS36 player last year already. He's been on a linear increase path with his shooting volume for years now. He is very clearly a better scorer than Barnes, and that has been apparent for quite some time. He isn't the same level of defender, but he is a much more dynamic offensive player. Jalen Johnson's jumper is set for normalization, but he's an excellent rebounder who drives a lot and passes well, for sure. We'll see what happens when Trae comes back, and if he can maintain his playmaking and all that, but he certainly looks great so far.

But looking around at other guys isn't it, man. There's always someone better. There's always a better bargain deal or whatever. Barnes is not our problem. He is producing quite well. Moaning and complaining that he isn't a superstar, or that he doesn't do X or Y better than this player or that isn't helpful when our real problems lie elsewhere.

That's just not really true at all, he has not always been a better scorer than Scottie. You're telling me you would have guessed Avdija after year 3 would be a better scorer than Scottie after his year 3? Year 4 was when he finally became a competent offensive player and then it was tiny jump in year 5 to a massive one in year 6. Let's not kid ourselves, he made numerous unexpected jumps that nobody really saw coming.

I expected even less from Scottie this year so I'm not complaining. I am just saying some of his comparables have leapfrogged him and they also happen to be making less money and that's probably where the whining from some people is coming from.

[Indeed]

Ibaka was multiple DPOY since his early career, which is why he is paid near a quarter (or closer to 20% with his lack of offensive creativity).
Marc Gasol was also all star selection for multiple times, and able to create off post up (2nd option), which is why he is paid near a quarter (or 23% with Grizzles)

Barnes is overpaid. He will need to show more impact on the defensive end to be a 3rd option on offense.

You are MASSIVELY overplaying this contract angle. I think I'm done talking about it with you, though, because we're just talking at one another now, so I'll move on. Agree to disagree.

Some of the "slander" is probably coming from him not making a really big leap despite the improvement this season in efficiency. He's been virtually the same player the last 3 seasons from a production standpoint.

Where did you expect the change?

He's 6'8 in shoes. He's not getting that much better as a rebounder. He's a very good passer inside the sets where he thrives, and he's a 5 apg guy. He isn't secretly Luka Doncic. He's doing a lot better in terms of efficiency while still managing solid point production. He's an excellent defender. He's a very good player. Shy of breaking out into an actual superstar, he's in a very good place, and there ARE limits to development.

Other players the same age like Jalen Johnson and Deni Avdija in comparison have made giant leaps this season. Those guys are making a lot less money than Scottie too, especially in Avdija's case.

Avdija has always been a better scorer than Barnes and was a 20 PTS36 player last year already. He's been on a linear increase path with his shooting volume for years now. He is very clearly a better scorer than Barnes, and that has been apparent for quite some time. He isn't the same level of defender, but he is a much more dynamic offensive player. Jalen Johnson's jumper is set for normalization, but he's an excellent rebounder who drives a lot and passes well, for sure. We'll see what happens when Trae comes back, and if he can maintain his playmaking and all that, but he certainly looks great so far.

But looking around at other guys isn't it, man. There's always someone better. There's always a better bargain deal or whatever. Barnes is not our problem. He is producing quite well. Moaning and complaining that he isn't a superstar, or that he doesn't do X or Y better than this player or that isn't helpful when our real problems lie elsewhere.

That's just not really true at all, he has not always been a better scorer than Scottie. You're telling me you would have guessed Avdija after year 3 would be a better scorer than Scottie after his year 3? Year 4 was when he finally became a competent offensive player and then it was tiny jump in year 5 to a massive one in year 6. Let's not kid ourselves, he made numerous unexpected jumps that nobody really saw coming.

I expected even less from Scottie this year so I'm not complaining. I am just saying some of his comparables have leapfrogged him and they also happen to be making less money and that's probably where the whining from some people is coming from.

Even they are making the same pay, Barnes is neither an on-ball creator nor off-ball scoring threat.
Now ignore the offense, putting him as the 3rd option (as most here agreed on his offensive role to be less of a creator in 1st / 2nd option), his contribution would be on defense. Does he have the defensive impact to be a near-max player, and who you would compare that to? Do you see him better than Anunoby on defense (Anunoby is paid 26% of Knicks salary if you believe he is not overpaid)?