Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 7

[TDotRep]

Clearly that analogy is terrible because if you are comparing the accuracy of a doctor to the accuracy of the scouts at dx than year heart must be located on your foot after a surgery, they are people who grew up watching ball and making a website. They mess up we mess up. Doctors goto school for more than 8 years these guys? If they are so good at what they do im sure they would be apart of an organization.

They are a professional scouting website that taps the shoulders of real NBA scouts. You don't think that scouting is a real profession? Then why do NBA teams employ them, and pay them handsomely?

In any case your argument "They mess up, we mess up" is a pretty flawed way of thinking. Scouting isn't an exact science, but there is certainly skill and dedication required in coming to conclusions about prospects. Wall Street traders mess up too, but if they messed up more than they actually made the correct decision, they'd be broke. The same thing applies here. If DraftExpress was constantly wrong about prospects and their rankings, then nobody would take them seriously -- but they aren't and people do.

Wall street analogy is better, and my argument was there is a science behind being a doctor of course people mess up but it is less likely to say a doctor would, thats why your analogy is terrible.

[daner01]

I don't think there should be much debate between Kanter and Val. Kanter has got some size with strength, Val has got size. IMO strength>size. Plus the Raps already have lots of length in Amir, Davis, Bargs we need a bruiser who can push people around. I'm taking Kanter all the way.

[Alfred]

Clearly that analogy is terrible because if you are comparing the accuracy of a doctor to the accuracy of the scouts at dx than year heart must be located on your foot after a surgery, they are people who grew up watching ball and making a website. They mess up we mess up. Doctors goto school for more than 8 years these guys? If they are so good at what they do im sure they would be apart of an organization.

They are a professional scouting website that taps the shoulders of real NBA scouts. You don't think that scouting is a real profession? Then why do NBA teams employ them, and pay them handsomely?

In any case your argument "They mess up, we mess up" is a pretty flawed way of thinking. Scouting isn't an exact science, but there is certainly skill and dedication required in coming to conclusions about prospects. Wall Street traders mess up too, but if they messed up more than they actually made the correct decision, they'd be broke. The same thing applies here. If DraftExpress was constantly wrong about prospects and their rankings, then nobody would take them seriously -- but they aren't and people do.

Wall street analogy is better, and my argument was there is a science behind being a doctor of course people mess up but it is less likely to say a doctor would, thats why your analogy is terrible.

The point of an analogy isn't to be exactly the same as the thing it's being compared to, that's ridiculous. The point of an analogy is to be illustrative. The point behind that analogy was why does the number of people saying something matter, when the other opinion is from a respected professional?

In any case, it's like you're saying that this board is a single voice saying something definitive, which it isn't.

[5DOM]

And what was I wrong about?
It says specifically local TBL which is not Euroleague. He got 6 rebounds in 31:11 minutes in Euroleague the whole season.

You're right, just like the ACB isn't the Euroleague.

ACB is the best domestic league outside the NBA where as TBL is ranked 8th and as a B-level competition in Europe.

Kanter averaged 3.2 ppg, 6.4 rpg in the TBL; and 2 ppg, 1.5 rpg in 7:47 mpg in Euroleague.

And I don't think we were even talking about ACB here. We were talking about Valanciunas who DOES play in the Euroleague

[God Squad]

5 blocks, 3 of which could have been avoided and would have in the nba.

How do you know? Stop speaking in absolutes

[5DOM]

And what was I wrong about?
It says specifically local TBL which is not Euroleague. He got 6 rebounds in 31:11 minutes in Euroleague the whole season.

I might be wrong but are you implying Enes is a bad rebounder?

I don't know if he's good or not. I was just proving a guy who said Kanter grabbed 12 rebounds in 21 minutes in Euroleague wrong.

[TDotRep]

So than the exact opposite can be said for christ sake why use it. I can say, are you going to question your morning whether man he has the credentials but he is always wrong, you know hes gonna be wrong but you still gotta believe him. The point of an analogy is to have some resemblance stock market fits, doctor doesn't end of story.

[God Squad]

5 blocks, 3 of which could have been avoided and would have in the nba.

Right, the video should be showing him blocking NBA players' shots, or blocking them more challengingly.

Listen, I'm not going to quibble over a highlight video anymore. If you're not impressed with him as a prospect, that's fine.

+1. I hate when people consistently put down prospects. In order to boost another prospect.

[5DOM]

So than the exact opposite can be said for christ sake why use it. I can say, are you going to question your morning whether man he has the credentials but he is always wrong, you know hes gonna be wrong but you still gotta believe him. The point of an analogy is to have some resemblance stock market fits, doctor doesn't end of story.

Are you typing on your phone?

[Reignman]

And what was I wrong about?
It says specifically local TBL which is not Euroleague. He got 6 rebounds in 31:11 minutes in Euroleague the whole season.

You're right, just like the ACB isn't the Euroleague.

ACB is the best domestic league outside the NBA where as TBL is ranked 8th and as a B-level competition in Europe.

Kanter averaged 3.2 ppg, 6.4 rpg in the TBL; and 2 ppg, 1.5 rpg in 7:47 mpg in Euroleague

I don't no why people keep saying this. ACB has a tonne of **** teams. The 2nd best league in the world is actually the Euroleague that get the best teams from the domestic leagues.

What makes the ACB any better than the Greek league?

[wtcantfw]

k well Jim kelly's opinion does as well. From now on what ever jim kelly says I will live by that, which is what 5DOM has been doing for quite some time with DX.

What you're failing to realize is that DX's mock draft predicts how the draft the will play out and is NOT based on their own talent evaluation. For example DX could have thought Greg Monroe was a better overall prospect than Ekpe Udoh, but talked to someone within the Warriors' team who said they liked Udoh better. Regardless of who DX liked, they had to have Udoh going to GS in their mock.

Obviously right now, pre-lottery, their projections hold less weight, but comparing them to the opinions of 500 random fans (at any time) is pointless.

[Jazzfan12]

k well Jim kelly's opinion does as well. From now on what ever jim kelly says I will live by that, which is what 5DOM has been doing for quite some time with DX.

What you're failing to realize is that DX's mock draft predicts how the draft the will play out and is NOT based on their own talent evaluation. For example DX could have thought Greg Monroe was a better overall prospect than Ekpe Udoh, but talked to someone within the Warriors' team who said they liked Udoh better. Regardless of who DX liked, they had to have Udoh going to GS in their mock.

Obviously right now, pre-lottery, their projections hold less weight, but comparing them to the opinions of 500 random fans (at any time) is pointless.

Before the lottery, DX's mock is based exclusively on their ranking of the prospects

[Alfred]

So than the exact opposite can be said for christ sake why use it. I can say, are you going to question your morning whether man he has the credentials but he is always wrong, you know hes gonna be wrong but you still gotta believe him. The point of an analogy is to have some resemblance stock market fits, doctor doesn't end of story.

I'm going to disagree with you about the analogy thing, but the more pressing issue (is DraftExpress credible) is pretty much settled. There's no real debate over whether they are a credible source of draft information. Saying that they screwed up with a prospect doesn't mean that they don't get most of the things they talk about right.

Having Valanciunas 3rd on the board, and 2nd for most of the season doesn't mean that he's a lock to be the third best player in the draft, but I think it's safe to say that he's going to be an impact player in the league.

DraftExpress for example, had Ed Davis much higher than 13 where he dropped to. They were one of the first sites that correctly predicted that Paul George was a wing rather than a big. They get exclusive information from workouts, etc. They're good at what they do.

[5DOM]

You're right, just like the ACB isn't the Euroleague.

ACB is the best domestic league outside the NBA where as TBL is ranked 8th and as a B-level competition in Europe.

Kanter averaged 3.2 ppg, 6.4 rpg in the TBL; and 2 ppg, 1.5 rpg in 7:47 mpg in Euroleague

I don't no why people keep saying this. ACB has a tonne of **** teams. The 2nd best league in the world is actually the Euroleague that get the best teams from the domestic leagues.

What makes the ACB any better than the Greek league?

I said ACB is the best DOMESTIC league outside the NBA. Euroleague is a continental league.
As for what make ACB any better than the Greek league, I don't know cause I don't watch them.
But see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ULEB_League_Rankings
At least a level above the Turkish league

Again, not sure why we are even talking about ACB, because we were talking about Valanciunas who does play in the Euroleague

[Dr Positivity]

draft express also had epke udoh ahead of ed davis greg monroe paul george and alabi going 21st

DX posts the order they expect, they don't rank on their personal opinion of players. In this case putting Udoh ahead of David, George, Monroe on their mock was a very accurate assessment

[Silk Wilkes]

That was the first of many epic showdowns Valanciunas would have with Turkish phenom Enes Kanter, and while the future Kentucky student had his way in New York City en route to 22 points, 17 rebounds and a well-deserved MVP award, the Lithuanian did little to hint that he would develop into arguably the most talented prospect in European basketball just a few years later.

From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jon ... z1KvzZHwUz
http://www.draftexpress.com

Anyone have the head-to-head stats?

[MEDIC]

Found some more Kanter footage. Not sure if posted.

Jumping ability looks adequate here:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULCCfZjS1lA&NR=1[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njySJ8_cRhY&NR=1[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdHwoYlcA1U&NR=1[/youtube]

@ 1:04 he is standing beside Jonas V. (Looks to be about 1/2 inch shorter). A nice dunk in this one & some post ups:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EKx7PLDyFY&feature=player_embedded#at=12[/youtube]

Hoops Summit (includes practice footage):

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAPQpRAy67s&feature=related[/youtube]

[Dr Positivity]

up with a prospect doesn't mean that they don't get most of the things they talk about right.

Having Valanciunas 3rd on the board, and 2nd for most of the season doesn't mean that he's a lock to be the third best player in the draft, but I think it's safe to say that he's going to be an impact player in the league.

Like I said, they're posting where the players are likely to go, not where they should go. They had Jordan Hill ranked top 3-5 most of his year, but were dissing the crap out of him the entire year in his scouting reports and saying nothing about their numbers indicated a fringe top 5 guy.

It's not safe to say he'll be an impact player. Not only where Thabeet and Morrison ranked highly by their mock, but they complimented them in their scouting reports too. Most top 8 busts in the time DX have been up, would have a lot in common with Val in that DX put them high on their mocks cause that's what GMs were saying

I could very, very easily see Val being a lanky dude who's best skill is getting pushed around and fouling. If you took the present day Valanciunas and put him in the NBA, that's what would happen. He's a project - the team that takes him won't take him for the guy he is now, but who they think he could be after he bulks up, fixes his fouling/defensive awareness issues, gets some offensive moves past dunking, etc. I don't think he's any more ready for the NBA than Biyombo, which is why the lockout is good timing for him. Val is a project you take for his talent and not his present game (and IMO is talent is overrated, all I see special for him is length and effort, but anyways)

[Hassassin]

That was the first of many epic showdowns Valanciunas would have with Turkish phenom Enes Kanter, and while the future Kentucky student had his way in New York City en route to 22 points, 17 rebounds and a well-deserved MVP award, the Lithuanian did little to hint that he would develop into arguably the most talented prospect in European basketball just a few years later.

From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jon ... z1KvzZHwUz
http://www.draftexpress.com

Anyone have the head-to-head stats?

Average stats from the two games they played against each other at the European U18's:

Enes Kanter:

28.5 points, FG% 60, FT% 67, 5.5 offensive rebounds, 15.5 total rebounds, 3.5 blocks, 2 steals, 2 PFs

Jonas Valanciunas:

17 points, FG% 76, FT% 89, 2 offensive rebounds, 5 total rebounds, 3 blocks, 0 steals, 4 PFs

[Silk Wilkes]

That was the first of many epic showdowns Valanciunas would have with Turkish phenom Enes Kanter, and while the future Kentucky student had his way in New York City en route to 22 points, 17 rebounds and a well-deserved MVP award, the Lithuanian did little to hint that he would develop into arguably the most talented prospect in European basketball just a few years later.

From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jon ... z1KvzZHwUz
http://www.draftexpress.com

Anyone have the head-to-head stats?

Average stats from the two games they played against each other at the European U18's:

Enes Kanter:

28.5 points, FG% 60, FT% 67, 5.5 offensive rebounds, 15.5 total rebounds, 3.5 blocks, 2 steals, 2 PFs

Jonas Valanciunas:

17 points, FG% 76, FT% 89, 2 offensive rebounds, 5 total rebounds, 3 blocks, 0 steals, 4 PFs

Barring a huge difference in the minutes, this looks one-sided.