Bruce Arthur: Glass half full analysis of Andrea

[Ripp]

Funny you'd mention Brooks since his running mate Ariza suffered the opposite fate.

Anyhow, neither of those two are Bargnani. Definitely he needs to be fed the ball to be successful. I like how much offense is run through him now. He really sees the floor well and moves the ball well... and passes it inside better than anyone else on the team too.

I think ideally they could bring him in another few feet towards the basketball and run some high post offense through him, but this offense doesn't ever do that with anyone.

Do you even watch Rockets games? Ariza suffered the opposite because he cannot create his own offense...others have to create for him. Brooks on the other hand can.

Obviously neither is exactly like Bargnani.....that goes without saying. The point is, with more touches, some will shine and some will flop. Hopefully Bargnani will shine.

[dagger]

I think ideally they could bring him in another few feet towards the basketball and run some high post offense through him, but this offense doesn't ever do that with anyone.

You mean the high post like Adelman ran for Chris Webber in SAC? Too obvious for this coach, but maybe the next. That's the other thing I want to see about Bargnani - whether a coaching change will impact him positively to the extent I believe it can. I realize a fair number of coaches like the idea of a PF who is a stretch 4, but I think that is meant for complementary players, and maybe it's time, if Bosh is leaving, to put more responsibility on AB, with greater structure and yes, accountability. For four years he's been treated as a complementary player who deferred. Now he has to be told that the proverbial buck is going to stop with him.

[kcthekid]

in painfully obvious when andrea is not in the play, he pretty much just walks near the paint and watches the play....check it out tmrw

[McFurious1]

I completely agree, but at the same time in the Chicago game we clearly tried to get Bargs going more and gave him tons of plays and Iso situations as well and we got blown out.

He scored well in the first half, but then disappeared in the 2nd half, and since he wasn't doing the "other" things necessary to win, he became useless.

Messi how many shots did Bargnani get in the 2nd half in the Bulls game after getting 15 points in the 1st?

[Ripp]

I'm very skeptical as there are too many "maybe's" in this analysis.

If Bargnani somehow blossoms after Bosh's departure, it says as much about Bargnani's inability to adapt and our coaches' ineptitude as it says about Bosh impact on his teammates. Also, if Bargnani blows up as a number 1 option, it will be a double edged sword for us because on the one hand, Bargs reaches his full potential, but on the other he simultaneously proves that he cannot thrive with a teammate with equal or greater offensive talent. If Bargnani can only perform at a top level when he has the majority of plays run for him and commands the most touches, what makes things any different for us than they are now with Bosh?

It isn't bad, though. If he is awesome, the team will still be bad enough to get high picks (compare to the Kevin Martin situation in Sacramento.) If he sucks...then it becomes awkward, since his salary is pretty high. But at this point, the Raps do not have much of a choice...there isn't a high demand for volume scoring shooting big men who can't rebound. The Raps simply have to hope he becomes more than that.

[kush-]

andrea is better with bosh

if bosh is gone, andrea doesn't get all the open looks he gets at the arc.

using a sample size of the one game at detroit is a terrible way to view things, even if you're being optimistic. andrea has played worse since bosh got injured.

[Lionel Messi]

I completely agree, but at the same time in the Chicago game we clearly tried to get Bargs going more and gave him tons of plays and Iso situations as well and we got blown out.

He scored well in the first half, but then disappeared in the 2nd half, and since he wasn't doing the "other" things necessary to win, he became useless.

Messi how many shots did Bargnani get in the 2nd half in the Bulls game after getting 15 points in the 1st?

That's my point. Whether or not you get the shots up is also your problem.

He was clearly given the #1 role the past two games and a green light to shoot it. If he deferred to Sonny Weems, Belinelli or Calderon...it also has to fall on his shoulders.

It's not ALL his fault, but the truth is that he was invisible in that second half. Even if it IS all the coach's fault that he only took like 4 shots in that second half (even though i dont think it is), he still has to do the other things like rebound, defend, and hustle.
If he did those things he wouldn't be considered "invisible" in that second half.

Hedo was 2/12 in that game, but he did a lot of other things and was certainly an impact player for us throughout. It's not all about scoring if you want to be the #1 guy, even for just a couple of games.

[dagger]

in painfully obvious when andrea is not in the play, he pretty much just walks near the paint and watches the play....check it out tmrw

We probably wont see a Bosh ISO again, but who is moving when he has the ball on the wing? Defensively, he has to move more, but we're not talking about our shooting guards. On offence, he hangs around because if the play breaks down, he has to set a pick at the top of the arc. I'd like to see more off the ball drives to the basket but when Bosh has the ball in an ISO, the object is not to clutter the lane, but keep it clear.

Now if another coach wants more off the ball movement, I've suggested plays - like running Bargnani off screens to take mid-range jumpers. You can create ball movement through play design, but the purpose of the ISO and the pick and roll, which is our bread and butter, is a two-man game in which everyone else spreads the court. They don't run around like headless chickens.

Bring in the Princeton offence, and we'll get movement.

[dagger]

That's my point. Whether or not you get the shots up is also your problem.

He was clearly given the #1 role the past two games and a green light to shoot it. If he deferred to Sonny Weems, Belinelli or Calderon...it also has to fall on his shoulders.

If your teammates are shooting instead of passing because there is no offensive structure or discipline, he won't get shots. Weems had 22 shots. How many times did he pass the ball? Our ball movement was a notable failure in that game.

[Lionel Messi]

in painfully obvious when andrea is not in the play, he pretty much just walks near the paint and watches the play....check it out tmrw

We probably wont see a Bosh ISO again, but who is moving when he has the ball on the wing? Defensively, he has to move more, but we're not talking about our shooting guards. On offence, he hangs around because if the play breaks down, he has to set a pick at the top of the arc. I'd like to see more off the ball drives to the basket but when Bosh has the ball in an ISO, the object is not to clutter the lane, but keep it clear.

Now if another coach wants more off the ball movement, I've suggested plays - like running Bargnani off screens to take mid-range jumpers. You can create ball movement through play design, but the purpose of the ISO and the pick and roll, which is our bread and butter, is a two-man game in which everyone else spreads the court. They don't run around like headless chickens.

Bring in the Princeton offence, and we'll get movement.

We run that off-ball down-screen to free Bargs for the jumper fairly often. Not often enough for my money, since he is pretty accurate when given that shot.

Either way, I've agreed with you all along that this team needs an offence that is structured much better and has a certain hierarchy. Whether or not a Princeton offence will do that, I'm not sure. Mostly because I'm still unsure as to exactly how it works (something with a lot screens or something, my friend hastily explained it to me once).

I also thought we'd use the Bargnani/Bosh pick and roll a lot more this season. It worked fairly well the few times in pre-season and Bagrs made some nice passes.

[34_fifty]

I'm very skeptical as there are too many "maybe's" in this analysis.

If Bargnani somehow blossoms after Bosh's departure, it says as much about Bargnani's inability to adapt and our coaches' ineptitude as it says about Bosh impact on his teammates. Also, if Bargnani blows up as a number 1 option, it will be a double edged sword for us because on the one hand, Bargs reaches his full potential, but on the other he simultaneously proves that he cannot thrive with a teammate with equal or greater offensive talent. If Bargnani can only perform at a top level when he has the majority of plays run for him and commands the most touches, what makes things any different for us than they are now with Bosh?

Well, he'll still be worse, allowing us to be bad enough to get a top pick...hopefully.

Things won't be different other than Bargnani won't be looked at as the downside of the team, maybe. But I'm sure he'll develop the ability play as a passing big as he enters his prime.

[Ripp]

andrea is better with bosh

if bosh is gone, andrea doesn't get all the open looks he gets at the arc.

using a sample size of the one game at detroit is a terrible way to view things, even if you're being optimistic. andrea has played worse since bosh got injured.

That might be, but Bosh is gone, and Bargs will have to find some game of his own. I agree that a single game against the terrible Pistons defense is not informative....but we still have to see if anything is there or not. Otherwise he just becomes another bad contract.

[Lionel Messi]

That's my point. Whether or not you get the shots up is also your problem.

He was clearly given the #1 role the past two games and a green light to shoot it. If he deferred to Sonny Weems, Belinelli or Calderon...it also has to fall on his shoulders.

If your teammates are shooting instead of passing because there is no offensive structure or discipline, he won't get shots. Weems had 22 shots. How many times did he pass the ball? Our ball movement was a notable failure in that game.

Listen, I agree, it's not all his fault...but I'm sure he had some opportunities for himself where he got the ball but just deferred and passed it away, simply because he does that a lot anyways.

Your #1 guy also needs to initiate the ball mouvement a bit and take it upon himself. Obviously, I don't expect Bargs to do all this right away when he gets the #1 label the way he did, but my main qualm was that he was INVISIBLE in the 2nd half. He didn't do much of anything.

Again, Hedo wasn't scoring for ****, but he still had an impact on the game because he did other things.

[timdunkit]

This article has MLSE hands over it ... No offense but Bargs is not a first option and this is someone who is a huge fan of his! What will happen next year is that Bargs will be treated as the number #1 option unless the team finds another player to do it. It will be all to help his development but there will be enough people ready to pounce on him because the team sucks and because he is inconsistent. This is the wrong approach for next year and the team is doing a mistake by setting this idea that Bargnani will be a number one option next year by using the media ...

[Jakay]

Funny you'd mention Brooks since his running mate Ariza suffered the opposite fate.

Anyhow, neither of those two are Bargnani. Definitely he needs to be fed the ball to be successful. I like how much offense is run through him now. He really sees the floor well and moves the ball well... and passes it inside better than anyone else on the team too.

I think ideally they could bring him in another few feet towards the basketball and run some high post offense through him, but this offense doesn't ever do that with anyone.

Do you even watch Rockets games? Ariza suffered the opposite because he cannot create his own offense...others have to create for him. Brooks on the other hand can.

Obviously neither is exactly like Bargnani.....that goes without saying. The point is, with more touches, some will shine and some will flop. Hopefully Bargnani will shine.

Speaking of rhetorical questions, did you even read my post? Where did I say anything different than what you did? Of course it's obvious to anyone why Ariza flopped... he's just not that good. I was only pointing out that being made the first option can go either way, and that I wasn't likening Andrea to either of the examples I was using.

Dagger: yeah... exactly like the Princeton offense. A little bit further back for Andrea, like a few feet from where Webber was just because I think it would work better for Andrea who doesn't quite have Webber's touch passing, and also because Andrea likes to fire these bullet passes so he can afford a few feet back. Likewise, so that he can run almost the same sets but out from the perimeter, which is a strong part of his game, and better than Webber's in that sense, although Webber was a good shooter.

It's also a good spot for Hedo to run things from, so the two could be used in the same spot, but take the offense in two different directions from there.

[Lionel Messi]

I don't mind Bargs as a #1 option next year for 2 reasons:

1) Bargnani will finally get the chance that most top picks get. The chance to chuck up bricks with no conscience on a bad team and develop your game by making mistakes.

2) We'll likely be so bad that we'll get a very high pick in next year's draft.

This is all contingent on Bosh not wanting to return of course, because if he does he's still the #1 guy (barring a trade for LeBron/Wade/Melo/Kobe/Durant ).

[Ripp]

Funny you'd mention Brooks since his running mate Ariza suffered the opposite fate.

Anyhow, neither of those two are Bargnani. Definitely he needs to be fed the ball to be successful. I like how much offense is run through him now. He really sees the floor well and moves the ball well... and passes it inside better than anyone else on the team too.

I think ideally they could bring him in another few feet towards the basketball and run some high post offense through him, but this offense doesn't ever do that with anyone.

Do you even watch Rockets games? Ariza suffered the opposite because he cannot create his own offense...others have to create for him. Brooks on the other hand can.

Obviously neither is exactly like Bargnani.....that goes without saying. The point is, with more touches, some will shine and some will flop. Hopefully Bargnani will shine.

Speaking of rhetorical questions, did you even read my post? Where did I say anything different than what you did? Of course it's obvious to anyone why Ariza flopped... he's just not that good. I was only pointing out that being made the first option can go either way, and that I wasn't likening Andrea to either of the examples I was using.

I apologize....I misinterpreted your intent. My fault.

[Jakay]

S'all good. I figured as much anyway. I can see why now, since starting things "Funny..." often is followed by a veiled "I think you're an idiot" around here.

And my own habits of being... well a jerk to people at times. Call a spade a spade.

[Qhawe]

I love bargs upside. Hopefully doesn't let me down if he gets the chance. Only one way of finding out and thats going a full season with him. It would be a more fluid offense without bosh but defensively we'll need to improve

[A_wildstabatanything]

Bargs isn't a #1 option, but he could thrive as the team's top scoring big. If Andrea's going to be here for the longhaul we'll need a goto guard or wing.

BC ####ed things up by not getting Bosh one. Don't make the same mistake again or the results will be even worse.