2011 Synergy D-stat rankings - Derozan D-stats pg. 11

[Yeezus_]

Okay one thing. No one really questions Bargnani's man to man defense. We all knew he was not the best man to man defender but solid. What this stat does not measure his is overall IQ on the defensive end. Bargnani has potentially the worst IQ on the list of players you've posted. Not only that, since this does not measure help defense, it will obviously over value the impact Bargnani has on defense. And the fact that it does not measure help defense makes this some what misleading because help D contributes to a players overall impact on that end.

Give me Ed Davis any day of the week over Bargnani if I had to depend on playing defense the entire game.

Quick question, when you say it measures how well they do against ISO/Postup, what does well mean?

[J-Roc]

FWIW, Bargs doens't mind manning up to his man. That's where guys like Boozer and Amare and look bad. But the help D situation is what hurts the Raps as a team. Opposing players know they only have to beat their perimeter man off the dribble, then it's a free ride to the rim. Points get racked up on the Raps that way (are we worst in the league with buckets at the rim?).

We are in fact worst in that category according to Sports Illustrated's recent article (posted yesterday I think) but to be fair... It's hard imagining any but the best defensive Cs in the NBA being able to take the amount of charges/blocked/altered shots/smart fouls they'd need to make up for the amount of dribble penetration we give up. Any center hoping to cover the likes of Calderon, Derozan and (pre-JJ) Kleiza would feel like Johnny Knocksville facing a paintball shooting squad.

I don't think it would be so bad. You know how a blocked shot is important not just for that possession, but for subsequent possessions. You get in the mind of opposing players and they hesitate to drive or fade away or take tougher shots than they need to.

If a player drives and sees some resistance, he'll err on the side of a pull up J next time around. A teammate will see the resistance and also hesitate next time around. It adds up. But conversely, when you see a lack of resistance, it gets in your mind to just drive and have faith the red sea will part.

[tommer]

The only ones that surprise me are Amir/Ed, and Ibaka. Although those 3 are strongest in their help D.

If that. I always argued Amir was a below average defender and Ed was flat out bad but everybody was trying to act like they were in line for defensive player of the year.

IMO we only have 1 really good defender -- Julian Wright.

Everyone else is either kinda good (Amir, James Johnson, maybe Ed Davis) or bad.

[Rhettmatic]

Put it this way, Rhett.

Yes, these don't include help defence beyond making sure you the player doesn't get burned on a pick and roll switch but the fact that there are this many big names on the list should give pause to what we think we know about defence period. If these guys aren't very good in these areas... what makes so many so sure they're making up for that with tremendously better help defence than Bargs? Why are these players given the benefit of the doubt? Does anybody really think David Lee, Carlos Boozer, Andris Biedrins, JJ Hickson, Roy Hibbert, etc make up for their weaknesses here with tremendously better "help defence?"

Well, you named a bunch of guys not known for help or 1-on-1 defence. But other people on your list -- Amir and Ed of our own guys or Serge Ibaka, for instance -- do excel at help defence and it does make a major difference to their overall defensive profile, given that help defence is generally accepted as a much bigger part of a big's defensive responsibilities than 1-on-1 defence.

I just think titling the thread "Worst defensive PF/Cs" is misleading, because this is looking at one part of a big's defensive duties, and it's not even the biggest part.

[Local_NG_Idiot]

Put it this way, Rhett.

Yes, these don't include help defence beyond making sure you the player doesn't get burned on a pick and roll switch but the fact that there are this many big names on the list should give pause to what we think we know about defence period. If these guys aren't very good in these areas... what makes so many so sure they're making up for that with tremendously better help defence than Bargs? Why are these players given the benefit of the doubt? Does anybody really think David Lee, Carlos Boozer, Andris Biedrins, JJ Hickson, Roy Hibbert, Pekovic, and even Dalembert etc make up for their weaknesses here with tremendously better "help defence?" Some people are surprised because some of these guys are shot blockers but being able to block a shot and a half per game doesn't make you a tremendous help defender either. We saw this with our own eyes last year when Bargnani was hovering around 17th in blocked shots.

It's a huge assumption, especially after the games I've seen from some of the names on this list... but we always give the benefit of the doubt to opposing players while staring at our own under a telescope. It's no wonder the forum's become so negative lately.

These stats don't take into consideration offensive strength of opponent either.

ie: is Bargs guarding Boozer or Noah? Amare or Turiaf? Bosh or Anthony? Brand or Hawes?

[Double Helix]

Put it this way, Rhett.

Yes, these don't include help defence beyond making sure you the player doesn't get burned on a pick and roll switch but the fact that there are this many big names on the list should give pause to what we think we know about defence period. If these guys aren't very good in these areas... what makes so many so sure they're making up for that with tremendously better help defence than Bargs? Why are these players given the benefit of the doubt? Does anybody really think David Lee, Carlos Boozer, Andris Biedrins, JJ Hickson, Roy Hibbert, Pekovic, and even Dalembert etc make up for their weaknesses here with tremendously better "help defence?" Some people are surprised because some of these guys are shot blockers but being able to block a shot and a half per game doesn't make you a tremendous help defender either. We saw this with our own eyes last year when Bargnani was hovering around 17th in blocked shots.

It's a huge assumption, especially after the games I've seen from some of the names on this list... but we always give the benefit of the doubt to opposing players while staring at our own under a telescope. It's no wonder the forum's become so negative lately.

These stats don't take into consideration offensive strength of opponent either.

ie: is Bargs guarding Boozer or Noah? Amare or Turiaf? Bosh or Anthony? Brand or Hawes?

It includes everybody he and every other player on the list has ever guarded or was supposed to guard (in other words.. if he's bad at running out and challenging shots, which this seems to indicate he is) this season. They've all guarded so many different players over the past 70 games obviously.

[5DOM]

I always thought Ed Davis was an overrated defender here (probably because we have one of the worst help defenders ever in the same team)

And our bigs overall have much harder jobs because none of our perimeter players can defend either. It's a perfect storm really. No wonder we give up the most attempts, makes and highest conversion rate in the paint.

[Double Helix]

Put it this way, Rhett.

Yes, these don't include help defence beyond making sure you the player doesn't get burned on a pick and roll switch but the fact that there are this many big names on the list should give pause to what we think we know about defence period. If these guys aren't very good in these areas... what makes so many so sure they're making up for that with tremendously better help defence than Bargs? Why are these players given the benefit of the doubt? Does anybody really think David Lee, Carlos Boozer, Andris Biedrins, JJ Hickson, Roy Hibbert, etc make up for their weaknesses here with tremendously better "help defence?"

Well, you named a bunch of guys not known for help or 1-on-1 defence. But other people on your list -- Amir and Ed of our own guys or Serge Ibaka, for instance -- do excel at help defence and it does make a major difference to their overall defensive profile, given that help defence is generally accepted as a much bigger part of a big's defensive responsibilities than 1-on-1 defence.

I just think titling the thread "Worst defensive PF/Cs" is misleading, because this is looking at one part of a big's defensive duties, and it's not even the biggest part.

This is true of course. Nothing is perfect but I wouldn't call it misleading. There's only so many ways to describe the thread in so many words.

It's important to keep in mind that this does account for pick and roll defence when a big sets a pick and then rolls to the basket which is a huge part of the game and some of the players on this list fail miserably at defending that back door pass and give up a lot of easy, high percentage baskets. Andrea is 29th in the NBA at defending in this situation from what I can tell.

[dacrusha]

If Bargs was a goaltender in hockey, he'd be decent on breakaways, but have a horrible save percentage everywhere else.

[Yeezus_]

DH please read my post and answer the question at the bottom regarding the stats .

[Local_NG_Idiot]

It includes everybody he and every other player on the list has ever guarded or was supposed to guard (in other words.. if he's bad at running out and challenging shots, which this seems to indicate he is) this season. They've all guarded so many different players over the past 70 games obviously.

But is Bargs (for the majority) usually responsible for running out a the Kwame Brown's on the opposing team, or is he usually the one running out at the Aldridge's and Bosh's?

If I'm a wing who's responsible for guarding Kobe, Anthony, Durant, Ellis, Gordon, Martin, etc... while my teammate wing gets to guard Artest, Fields, Sefalosha, Wright, Gomes, Budinger etc...

Even if I'm the far superior defender, who's raw numbers are going to look better? Mine, or my teammates?

[Volcano]

Hard to say anything about these stats with so little context. I don't think there's any way Davis is a worse man defender than CharlieV for example. Davis/Amir are also undersized..especially when guarding C's. Both offensively and defensively, size is usually a disadvantage for them, which is why I consider them back-up level at the moment (or someone you'd pair alongside a superstar C).

We are in fact worst in that category according to Sports Illustrated's recent article (posted yesterday I think) but to be fair... It's hard imagining any but the best defensive Cs in the NBA being able to take the amount of charges/blocked/altered shots/smart fouls they'd need to make up for the amount of dribble penetration we give up. Any center hoping to cover the likes of Calderon, Derozan and (pre-JJ) Kleiza would feel like Johnny Knocksville facing a paintball shooting squad.

Actually, JO did a pretty good job for us with worse wings/PG's. The one thing that was noticeable when he was on the court was that everything around the rim was being contested. Unfortunately, we were never able to grab the rebound off the miss, JO had a crappy offensive game and we had the worst wing/PG rotation in the league.

[Double Helix]

I always thought Ed Davis was an overrated defender here (probably because we have one of the worst help defenders ever in the same team)

And our bigs overall have much harder jobs because none of our perimeter players can defend either. It's a perfect storm really. No wonder we give up the most attempts, makes and highest conversion rate in the paint.

Highlight reel shot blockers with nice block totals have always been seen as good defenders regardless of what they're giving up in order to get those blocks. It's a bi-product of how poor the defensive statistics situation is in the NBA at the moment. It's all most people have to base their defensive opinion on.

[Double Helix]

DH please read my post and answer the question at the bottom regarding the stats .

They count and track every single time the player is in that defensive situation and then record whether the player in the offensive situation scored... Or

Missed the shot by their own doing
Missed by having their shot altered
Missed by having their shot blocked
Had the ball stolen
Traveled
Passed the ball out of bounce
Turned the ball over through an offensive foul

Basically everything other than score in that situation counts as a positive for the defender. Then they figure out how often people score in these various situations against these players and come up with percentage based ratios and eventually a ranking in comparison to others around the NBA.

PFs and Cs usually guard other high percentage scorers so their points scored against in these situations are obviously much higher than other positions in basketball.

It's remarkable that Okafor scores so well in so many ways while also being a tremendous shot blocker and presumably a great help defender too. It's a shame he doesn't get the credit he deserves. It seems like he's lived up the defensive hype was drafted on but many of his strengths seem to have gone unnoticed to many fans.

[sonn]

Where does Andrew Bynum rank?

[Yeezus_]

DH please read my post and answer the question at the bottom regarding the stats .

They count and track every single time the player is in that defensive situation and then record whether the player in the offensive situation scored... Or

Missed the shot by their own doing
Missed by having their shot altered
Missed by having their shot blocked
Had the ball stolen
Traveled
Passed the ball out of bounce
Turned the ball over through an offensive foul

Basically everything other than score in that situation counts as a positive for the defender. Then they figure out how often people score in these various situations against these players and come up with percentage based ratios and eventually a ranking in comparison to others around the NBA.

PFs and Cs usually guard other high percentage scorers so their points scored against in these situations are obviously much higher than other positions in basketball.

It's remarkable that Okafor scores so well in so many ways while also being a tremendous shot blocker and presumably a great help defender too. It's a shame he doesn't get the credit he deserves. It seems like he's lived up the defensive hype was drafted on but many of his strengths seem to have gone unnoticed to many fans.

Thanks DH, so Bargnani would have better ratings if a teammate blocked a shot that AB was guarding? Now the real question that remains is who does Bargnani typically defend on the defensive end ?

[Double Helix]

Where does Andrew Bynum rank?

He actually ranks very well in a lot of these areas:

He's 127th overall and his greatest strength is defending the pick and roll where the opposing big rolls or steps out. He's 9th best in the NBA at defending this situation.

[dagger]

All of this is nice but we'd win a lot more games if we could defend the three point shot and make some of our own. Dribble penetration forces our defenders to rotate more, and that scrambles our defence. Good ball movement ends up killing us with wide open looks beyond the arc.

It's no surprise that are last two wins - Washington and OKC - are mediocre three point shooting teams. Or scroll back to the Indiana win when Granger was ineffective and Josh McRoberts didn't play.

I'm not going to argue that we have great interior D, but in basketball, you just need to shift the paradigm a bit to double your win total. A little more effective D, a little more effective O, can change a 20-win team into a 40-win team without the addition of a superstar. It's the superstars, however, that change the 40-win team into a 60-win contender.

My argument is that the most important stat in building a better Raptor team is not offensive or defensive efficiency, but the spread. The excess of points given up vs points scored. You shouldn't sacrifice a great deal of offence to become a better defensive team. Our best ever defensive team was KO's year - at least until we traded AD for Jalen Rose. That team was unwatchable, and it was still headed for the lottery.

So I prefer a systemic, and somewhat subjective analysis of our issues. If there is one thing I like about a prospect like Harrison Barnes, it's that he'd more likely impact the spread than almost anyone we could draft, Irving included. He's a good perimeter defender, but would have immediate impact as a shooter with good three point range. Conversely, a player like Barbosa has a negative impact because while he can score in bunches some nights, he's not good at keeping his man in front of him. His gambling style leads to too many open drives.

[Volcano]

Where does Andrew Bynum rank?

He actually ranks very well in a lot of these areas:

He's 127th overall and his greatest strength is defending the pick and roll where the opposing big rolls or steps out. He's 9th best in the NBA at defending this situation.

that's for this season only right? I remember Bynum's inability to play pick and roll D was a relatively hot topic in previous years due to not being 100%

[Double Helix]

I spent a lot of time putting this work together now but I have other things I must do. I won't be able to answer questions for a while but the Synergy Sports site's demo is still open so if you're interested check it out.

In closing, I want to reaffirm that Bargnani still looks poor here. He's still a poor defender with a PER of 16.6 (and PER does take into consider his poor rebounding) so fans and critics alike should pretty much have everything they need to put together a pretty solid idea of his value in the NBA.

If he comes off the bench someday he'll provide much better value obviously than Charlie V and Andris Biedrins are providing for example. Amare and David Lee really are shockingly terrible defenders. If they didn't pull down so many rebounds I wonder if we'd look at them the same way or see them paid so much?