Official Raptors 2012 NBA Draft Thread, Part 10

[YoungD23]

My attempt at Beal in a Raptor uniform..

Bring him home!

[Saciid11]

Robinson isn't my 2nd favorite prospect in the draft, but he seems like such a logical choice for us

People shouldn't worry about Bargnani at all w/ the TRob pick. The thing is since Bargnani can play C, a 3 man rotation of him, Robinson and Valanciunas isn't an issue. All can get 30mpg and get their game off

I would say drafting a SG "rocks the boat" a bit more because it'd move Derozan to SF maybe permanently.

If you draft Davis, Thomas Robinsson or Sullinger, you trade Bargnani for wing or point guard, if this team want to get better. We tried Bargnani as small forward it didn't work, we tried him as center it didn't work, and now we tried him as power forward and it looks like the same result as the other positions.

It depends what you mean by "didn't work". Bargnani is a good player. He can be a particularly good 6th man on a team.

What I could see is neither Robinson or Valanciunas starting next year. Opening day has Bargnani and Amir/FA big in the frontcourt and that could very well last all year. Then at the end of the year we make a decision. Do Robinson and JVal both look great, enough to trade Bargnani immediately? Are they ready to start and make Bargnani the 6th man? Is Bargnani better than one of them, but not the other, giving us a starting frontcourt?

Trading Bargnani immediately probably doesn't have much value. He's going to be the same guy a year from now, with the same strengths and weaknesses. His contract will be shorter. Might as well keep him for insurance if either TRob or JVal don't look good their first year. Or as a long term 6th man in our 3 big rotation.

There's no need to play with kid gloves with any of Bargnani, TRob and JVal and say "Well we're starting them immediately and their spot can't be touched!" Dwane Casey is a tough minded guy who probably believes in meritocracy. Bayless and Ed are perfect examples, if we were a team that just threw every prospect 35mpg those guys would've gotten a lot more burn than they have. And I don't see Val in particular being an immediate starting C. Needs to learn the NBA game and bulk up physically, and C is a hard position to start at. Personally I'd agree with him if his plan is 20 minutes off the bench for both Robinson and Valanciunas next year, with the potential for one of them to start as soon as they're good enough defensively too.

Robinson fits Dwane Casey to me. I know he has the Dirk history, but we clearly care about defense and rebounding now. We'd be building with bricks. This might seem like a weird thing to say, but I feel like if Robinson was a hockey player he'd be a future captain. I could see Robinson being a guy you build around mentally. I know we already have a guy in Demar who's like that, but until Demar becomes a better player I wonder how much weight he carries, and Robinson has now made the NCAA Finals and has come from an epic organization in college, etc. Also having 2 guys like that could make it even better.

Look we are not going to win championship or even make the playoff next year, so why not just play JVAL and Robinsson if you draft him right away to develop them or see what you have. If we keep Bargnani as 6th man we lose what we can get for him in the future, but right now his value is decent and it will probably never get better then now, so why not sell him high this summer and start rebuilding this team the right way.

[drew_8730]

fab melo is soloman alabi 2.0

[PowerPhil15]

say we draft 5th

Davis, Drummound, MKG, Robinson, Barnes should be off

I take beal no doubt, most polished right now and even more chance to improve, grow, probably taller than listed. Just slide Droz to the 3 and call it a day. trade up for marshall/rivers/another pg with our second roudners + jj

what a sexy team

[dTox]

If we end up taking either T-Rob or Drummond I still want Bargs gone before the season begins, I don't want them getting the Ed Davis treatment where they constantly get pulled regardless of how they play, and end up watching Bargnani play from the bench for 35 minutes regardless of his performance. And one of my biggest worries is that, even if they outperform him and deserve the starting line up BC will demand that Andrea plays 30 + minutes to "show case" him a la Jose Calderon.

So i say F**k that, I want him and his primo pasta commercial out of this city as fast as possible, enough is enough

[Dr Positivity]

Look we are not going to win championship or even make the playoff next year, so why not just play JVAL and Robinsson if you draft him right away to develop them or see what you have. If we keep Bargnani as 6th man we lose what we can get for him in the future, but right now his value is decent and it will probably never get better then now, so why not sell him high this summer and start rebuilding this team the right way.

You don't have to start them to play them. Even with Bargnani getting 35mpg, there's no reason why JVal and Robinson both can't get 23-25 minutes, and more when someone gets injured.

This board has a weird obsession when it comes to starting, as if development minutes don't count when a player comes off the bench. There is nothing wrong for "just" 22-25mpg and coming off the bench to earn your minutes for a rookie. As long as they aren't treated like Larry Brown does rookies I don't think there's any harm to it. Hell, even Brown benching Henderson for his entire rookie year hasn't seemed to have effected his career negatively.

As for Bargnani, I think his value in the future would be fine as a 6th man, just as long as he was getting 30-35mpg. Next year he wouldn't be 6th man. He'd be starting and the primary player on the team, with Robinson and Valanciunas' minutes and roles fitting around his rather than the other way around IMO.

[C_Money]

My attempt at Beal in a Raptor uniform..

Bring him home!

[fredericklove]

beal is going to make most of you slap yourselves.

Lol at Nets winning the lottery, at least we got Beal.

[Dr Positivity]

If we end up taking either T-Rob or Drummond I still want Bargs gone before the season begins, I don't want them getting the Ed Davis treatment where they constantly get pulled regardless of how they play, and end up watching Bargnani play from the bench for 35 minutes regardless of his performance. And one of my biggest worries is that, even if they outperform him and deserve the starting line up BC will demand that Andrea plays 30 + minutes to "show case" him a la Jose Calderon. F**k that, I want him and his primo pasta commercial out of this city as fast as possible, enough is enough

I think a lot of people will be disappointed next year if they think our rookies are getting unlimited PT and being immediately featured. As I said Bayless and Davis this year are good indicators. A Davis would be a major part of the team immediately, everyone else I think comes off the bench in 20-25mpg. Even MKG probably has less minutes than JJ at first.

[6Ft Under]

It depends what you mean by "didn't work". Bargnani is a good player. He can be a particularly good 6th man on a team.

What I could see is neither Robinson or Valanciunas starting next year. Opening day has Bargnani and Amir/FA big in the frontcourt and that could very well last all year. Then at the end of the year we make a decision. Do Robinson and JVal both look great, enough to trade Bargnani immediately? Are they ready to start and make Bargnani the 6th man? Is Bargnani better than one of them, but not the other, giving us a starting frontcourt?

Trading Bargnani immediately probably doesn't have much value. He's going to be the same guy a year from now, with the same strengths and weaknesses. His contract will be shorter. Might as well keep him for insurance if either TRob or JVal don't look good their first year. Or as a long term 6th man in our 3 big rotation.

There's no need to play with kid gloves with any of Bargnani, TRob and JVal and say "Well we're starting them immediately and their spot can't be touched!" Dwane Casey is a tough minded guy who probably believes in meritocracy. Bayless and Ed are perfect examples, if we were a team that just threw every prospect 35mpg those guys would've gotten a lot more burn than they have. And I don't see Val in particular being an immediate starting C. Needs to learn the NBA game and bulk up physically, and C is a hard position to start at. Personally I'd agree with him if his plan is 20 minutes off the bench for both Robinson and Valanciunas next year, with the potential for one of them to start as soon as they're good enough defensively too.

Robinson fits Dwane Casey to me. I know he has the Dirk history, but we clearly care about defense and rebounding now. We'd be building with bricks. This might seem like a weird thing to say, but I feel like if Robinson was a hockey player he'd be a future captain. I could see Robinson being a guy you build around mentally. I know we already have a guy in Demar who's like that, but until Demar becomes a better player I wonder how much weight he carries, and Robinson has now made the NCAA Finals and has come from an epic organization in college, etc. Also having 2 guys like that could make it even better.

Where do amir and ed come into this master plan??

[Waylon Mercy]

we need to move both of our 2nds for fab melo. I like him more than I like drummond. This draft is big heavy and although I don't want a big with my 1st pick, getting a quality C prospect in a draft is always a +. I have no problems giving max burn to C rookies. Feed them to fire both.

You like Fab Melo better then Drummond?

You can't be serious

They're the same player basically except Drummond has more 'potential'. Same size. Similar numbers. I would prefer Melo over Drummond too. At least Melo improved this year, he's just not that bright.

Drummond is 3 years younger and an althletic freak where Fab Melo has weight issues a
poor work ethic and is dumb as a rock. And some of you still prefer a bubble first round pick
for a guy who could possibly be the consensus 2nd pick in the draft? lol

[Dr Positivity]

I could see us starting Amir at C next year and slowly phasing his minutes to 15-20mpg

Davis should be traded immediately if we draft a PF/C IMO. I see him as a backup PF long term so he's about as much consequence to me as Jordan Hill was to the Houston Rockets

[fredericklove]

My attempt at Beal in a Raptor uniform..

Bring him home!

Damn homie, Beal looks sick in Barbosa's uniform! And the tongue...

[dTox]

If we end up taking either T-Rob or Drummond I still want Bargs gone before the season begins, I don't want them getting the Ed Davis treatment where they constantly get pulled regardless of how they play, and end up watching Bargnani play from the bench for 35 minutes regardless of his performance. And one of my biggest worries is that, even if they outperform him and deserve the starting line up BC will demand that Andrea plays 30 + minutes to "show case" him a la Jose Calderon. F**k that, I want him and his primo pasta commercial out of this city as fast as possible, enough is enough

I think a lot of people will be disappointed next year if they think our rookies are getting unlimited PT and being immediately featured. As I said Bayless and Davis this year are good indicators. A Davis would be a major part of the team immediately, everyone else I think comes off the bench in 20-25mpg. Even MKG probably has less minutes than JJ at first.

I've never said or assumed they would be getting large playing time, there's a difference between the scenario you're saying and the one that would actually take place. I understand bringing the rookies along slowly, but the difference in having Andrea in the lineup is that he'll continue to get big 4th quarter minutes and close out games even when he puts up a stinker like the NYC game when he shot 5-15 and grab 2 rebounds yet played 34 minutes, or the following game in Chicago when he managed to accumulate 35 minutes shooting 2-10 and grabbing 6 rebounds. Where's the morale in that? And what sort of message would that send to them? There's been to many times where I've seen Ed play solid defense, hustle for rebounds while scoring efficiently only to get the quick hook just to see Andrea close out the game.

There's a strong indication this would continue with T-Rob or Drummond/A.Davis on this team, I would rather trade Andrea and keep Ed on the team so he can split minutes with either Forwards and the coach will reward the harder working player with closing minutes or a starter role, that's actual player development and also goes hand in hand with what you've suggested.

[Dr Positivity]

Bargnani is still easily the best scorer on the team. You appeal to the larger sample size of Bargnani giving you a much better chance to win in 4th quarters than Ed. When we play Ed with our other mediocore offensive bigs, we have little place to go offensively.

Ed has not even proven he's a viable 20mpg PF long term, there's little reason to hand him starting and 4th quarter minutes with a spoon, especially if he's as ambivalent towards working hard as it seems he is

Furthermore we are building a team for the long term. Playing a guy 20-25mpg is a perfectly fine strategy long term if they have the talent. Ed probably doesn't have the talent to be a starter long term and thus he won't be one, but a guy like Robinson and Valanciunas could emerge as starters by their 2nd or 3rd year. In fact I wish the NBA had a system like the NHL and MLB does where there's an AHL type of farm system to plug prospects into, then bring them into the NBA when they're ready. Since that doesn't happen, bringing them off the bench is the best comprimise, I suppose.

[Dr Positivity]

When it comes to 4th quarter minutes, what I could see is Bargnani always playing them and then whoever emerges as the better player between Robinson/Drummond and Valanciunas next year joins him. I don't see Amir beating those guys out for 4th quarter minutes.

[Al_Oliver]

we need to move both of our 2nds for fab melo. I like him more than I like drummond. This draft is big heavy and although I don't want a big with my 1st pick, getting a quality C prospect in a draft is always a +. I have no problems giving max burn to C rookies. Feed them to fire both.

You like Fab Melo better then Drummond?

You can't be serious

They're the same player basically except Drummond has more 'potential'. Same size. Similar numbers. I would prefer Melo over Drummond too. At least Melo improved this year, he's just not that bright.

you mean he hasn't played basketball for very long. his improvement was based on another year of development and a change to his physique

[DreamTeam09]

yea I like fab melo over Drummond. Especially for where melo will be drafted and where Drummond will. Not sure about the weight issue, maybe that was in the past but he looked good this yr, especially down the stretch. Drummond was up n down all yr and was down mostly during the stretch. Hes gonna get a GM fired depeneding on who takes him n where he goes...

[dTox]

Bargnani is still easily the best scorer on the team. You appeal to the larger sample size of Bargnani giving you a much better chance to win in 4th quarters than Ed. When we play Ed with our other mediocore offensive bigs, we have little place to go offensively.

Ed has not even proven he's a viable 20mpg PF long term, there's little reason to hand him starting and 4th quarter minutes with a spoon, especially if he's as ambivalent towards working hard as it seems he is

Furthermore we are building a team for the long term. Playing a guy 20-25mpg is a perfectly fine strategy long term if they have the talent. Ed probably doesn't have the talent to be a starter long term and thus he won't be one, but a guy like Robinson and Valanciunas could emerge as starters by their 2nd or 3rd year. In fact I wish the NBA had a system like the NHL and MLB does where there's an AHL type of farm system to plug prospects into, then bring them into the NBA when they're ready. Since that doesn't happen, bringing them off the bench is the best comprimise, I suppose.

I don't understand where you get this "easily the best scorer" from when he's been averaging 44% from the field his entire career which is considered pretty horrid from a bigman, and I would consider Bayless a much better and efficient scorer. And again, Ed might not be able to score as "giftedly" as Andrea but when he has good nights he certainly brings alot more to the table with his defensive presence and hustle on the rebounds (which rarely gets rewarded) because when Andrea's not scoring he's a hot piece of turd on the court refusing to do the little things that can bring us wins. And not once have I mentioned spoon feeding minutes to Ed or handing him the starting lineup, in fact my argument was on the the total opposite suggesting players get rewarded/punished based on their performances, and it's a little bit weird that you are against this spoon feeding when Andrea's been getting spoon fed with minutes and starter roles pretty much his whole career here, why don't you apply your values on him as well?

When you bring in more talented prospects than Ed such as the A. Davis or Robinson then it's only going to more infuriating to see them get the same treatment as Ed.

[Dr Positivity]

But Ed hasn't been given a wrong treatment. He's gotten 24 and 22mpg his first 2 years. He's played nearly 2800 minutes for us to see and evaluate him with, and of course the team evaluates him in practice and scrimmages as well. Ed has been given the opportunity to prove he's a starting caliber and dynamic player, and what he's proven is that he's not. That's all I ask for when developing a player. Likewise you give Robinson and Val 20-25mpg and they can prove how good they are. That's more than enough time. If they end up the next Horford and Noah, they'll be starting by year 2 or 3. We're not going to have a player as productive as Horford and Noah coming off the bench. "The Ed treatment" is the status quo when it comes to prospects. When they prove they're starting caliber, you start them. If 2 years in they've proven they're not even above average bench players, then that's the role you plan for them long term

Ed isn't starting because he hasn't proven he's a starting player. Bayless isn't starting because he hasn't proven he's a starting player. Yes that sentence is true regardless of his stats, the guy is a score first, tunnel vision 6'2 SG even when he's doing well statistically, and every respectable team knows you don't start players like that long term especially in the most talented PG boom ever - you bring them off the bench as sparkplugs. With the way they played the last 2 years, right now the only way they fit into long term plans is if they're our 7th and 8th men. Good franchises aren't fooled by average players putting up stats for 2 weeks when they're starting on a bad team.