ImageImageImageImageImage

State of the Union. Team Canada Basketball. (FIBA Americas Aug.31-Sep.15)

Moderators: Morris_Shatford, 7 Footer, DG88, niQ, Duffman100, tsherkin, Reeko, lebron stopper, HiJiNX

aminiaturebuddha
Head Coach
Posts: 6,812
And1: 7,415
Joined: Aug 07, 2006

Re: State of the Union. Team Canada Basketball. 

Post#21 » by aminiaturebuddha » Mon Apr 6, 2015 1:18 pm

First of all, a big thanks to Hendrix for putting together this thread!

I agree with others that Heslip will probably be on the team this summer (at least for the qualifying, if not both), due to his shooting and experience with the team (he was on the 2013 team). I would think he replaces Pangos in your projected lineup.

Also in your projected lineup, it's true they may want Anthony for experience, but really, he's never been particularly suited to international play, and there are so many other bigs in the system that he may not make the team. Maybe they'll keep him for the Pan-Am games to help mentor some of the younger players, but I would think that 12th spot would either go to another wing player, or someone like Powell or Lyles. As an aside, has anyone noticed how much Powell has dominated the D-league whenever he's been sent down there this year?

I also agree with others that Wiljter definitely has a place in the program going forward.

Another guy who should be in the mix is Dyshawn Pierre. I actually still have high hopes that he'll make it to the NBA as a poor man's Danny Green.

Finally, as was pointed out in another thread (by frumble, I believe), FIBA is moving to a FIFA-type qualification system, with a continual series of games rather than straight up qualifying tournaments. This is bad news for Canada, as our second-to-the-US NBA talent won't be able to participate in most of these games. But it also means that a lot of the secondary players will need to be kept within the program and play meaningful minutes for country.
frumble
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,523
And1: 742
Joined: Aug 23, 2012

Re: State of the Union. Team Canada Basketball. 

Post#22 » by frumble » Mon Apr 6, 2015 3:47 pm

Triano has mentioned having about 30 guys in the mix or pool for the National team. I took this to mean that these are guys that he hopes to be able to draw from. My guess at the guys who would be on this list:

Cs
Olynyk
Sacre
Anthony
Bachynski
Bhullar
Klassen

PFs
Thompson
Nicholson
Bennett
Powell
Birch
Lyles
Wiltjer
Kendall

SFs
Wiggins
Shepherd
Pierre
Ejim
Doornekamp
K. Joseph

SGs
English
Stauskas
Rautins
Heslip
Scrubb
Hanlan
Mullings

PGs
Joseph
Ennis
Anderson
Pangos
Cadougan
Kabongo

I listed by position, but obviously those distinctions are not hard and fast. The PFs and Cs are largely interchangeable, as are the SFs and SGs. And guys like Ejim and Doornekamp (and maybe Bennett), if they make it, could slide between SF and PF.

Its a pretty solid list, and if we had full participation we would be in very good shape.

Even with poor participation, I can't see anyone who is not on this list making the FIBA qualifying squad. I think it is a little too early for guys like Brooks and Rathan-Mayes, and much too early for guys like Shittu and Barrett Jr.
User avatar
Young_Buc
General Manager
Posts: 9,638
And1: 9,130
Joined: Aug 26, 2003
Location: Puff Daddy's House
   

Re: State of the Union. Team Canada Basketball. 

Post#23 » by Young_Buc » Mon Apr 6, 2015 4:32 pm

Don't know enough about INTL ball to comment properly but I see it shaking down like:

Olynyk/Sacre/Powell
Thompson/Bennett
Wiggins/Lyles
Stauskas/Heslip
Joseph/Ennis/Hanlan
Image
User avatar
Mattd97
Head Coach
Posts: 6,324
And1: 2,505
Joined: Mar 29, 2007
Location: Toronto

Re: State of the Union. Team Canada Basketball. 

Post#24 » by Mattd97 » Mon Apr 6, 2015 6:18 pm

outside of wiggins, cojo and maybe olynyk, id say carl english is the best canadian player in the world right now. at the same time hes put in his time, and is used to being a primary option - a role that just shouldnt be his on the NT right now. I can see them still using him in the qualifying tournament for his offence, but if he wouldnt be on the olympic team anyways it might just make sense for both sides for him to retire internationally
vergogna wrote:- game starts at 3.50
- nice passing at 4.15
- BARGS REBOUND at 4.47
- BARGS REBOUND (almost) at 6.23
frumble
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,523
And1: 742
Joined: Aug 23, 2012

Re: State of the Union. Team Canada Basketball. 

Post#25 » by frumble » Mon Apr 6, 2015 6:52 pm

Mattd97 wrote:outside of wiggins, cojo and maybe olynyk, id say carl english is the best canadian player in the world right now. at the same time hes put in his time, and is used to being a primary option - a role that just shouldnt be his on the NT right now. I can see them still using him in the qualifying tournament for his offence, but if he wouldnt be on the olympic team anyways it might just make sense for both sides for him to retire internationally


If Stauskas doesn't participate (IMHO, a strong possibility), I think English would be a starter, or at least a primary back-up.

I think he is ahead of Rautins, Scrubb, Hanlan, and Mullings on the depth chart, and at least even with Heslip. Of course that assumes that English is interested, which may not be the case.
mojo13
Veteran
Posts: 2,603
And1: 1,904
Joined: Mar 25, 2014
   

Re: State of the Union. Team Canada Basketball. 

Post#26 » by mojo13 » Mon Apr 6, 2015 7:05 pm

Some of my random thoughts:

1. I agree that many overestimate the young prospects and their chances to get to an elite Senior Men's Team level. Most of the high-school and young college prospects mentioned above will not sniff the NBA (recall Kabongo, Myck). Some may become SMNT members down the road, but I'd leave the kids out of the current team discussions until we know they are more relevant. Trey Lyles you may now enter the conversation.
2. NBA rotation level talent (or above) or Euro near All-star is the bar I think we should be setting for guys who will be meaningful contributors to the success of the SMNT. I think our very good Euro FIBA player is more valuable than an NBA scrub.
3. Many people here underestimate the vast difference in FIBA play from North American play. Very different set of rules and play. It is a weird mix that on one hand rewards team play, fundamentally skilled players but also a very rough aggressive play style (lots of clutching, grabbing, elbows etc.). I think it purposely hampers individual athleticism to try to allow the Euro's to compete with the USA. Regardless, don't underestimate the value of FIBA experience. We really need some guys playing in Europe to be key pieces of this team - Carl English, Devoe Joseph, Kris Joseph, Brady Heslip, Melvin Ejim, Jehvon Shepard, Andy Rautins, Levon Kendall. I don't know who, but two or three of those guys need to be on this summer's team.
4. Tristan Thompson is overrated for FIBA play, he will be useful but not a key component
5. Kelly Olynyk is underrated and will be the key cog besides Wiggins and Cory Joseph.
6. Carl English is underrated (see #3 above) and his absence was a key reason why we failed to qualify for the worlds.
7. We will really need the size/strength / D of Robert Sacre at some point. I have a very poor opinion of Bhullar, but we may need him at some point in the next few years too.
8. I sure hope Sauce Castillo is not as bad as he has shown this year (36% FG/31% 3PT). We really need a Stauskas type on the wing.
9. Anthony Bennett never has successfully played the three. Please dont call him a three. Ask him yourself.
10. Khem Birch and Dwight Powell have really torn up the D-league this year, I have high hopes for them down the road.
11. Really appreciate Frumble, Hendrix and Bhudda's commentary on the SMNT....being reading your posts for some time.
mojo13
Veteran
Posts: 2,603
And1: 1,904
Joined: Mar 25, 2014
   

Re: State of the Union. Team Canada Basketball. 

Post#27 » by mojo13 » Mon Apr 6, 2015 7:09 pm

Frumble - I think Stauskas needs to participate. He was so bad this year, he has to play as much summer ball as possbile to get his confidence back. The summer leagues and the SMNT are going to be very important to him.
mojo13
Veteran
Posts: 2,603
And1: 1,904
Joined: Mar 25, 2014
   

Re: State of the Union. Team Canada Basketball. 

Post#28 » by mojo13 » Mon Apr 6, 2015 7:12 pm

Mattd97 wrote:outside of wiggins, cojo and maybe olynyk, id say carl english is the best canadian player in the world right now. at the same time hes put in his time, and is used to being a primary option - a role that just shouldnt be his on the NT right now. I can see them still using him in the qualifying tournament for his offence, but if he wouldnt be on the olympic team anyways it might just make sense for both sides for him to retire internationally


I never understood why English doesn't get the respect he deserves. If you read his interviews last summer, I think he is committed to helping Canada qualify and then passing the torch. I still think we really need him - as a starter too, as I don't have confidence in Stauskas yet.
User avatar
Mattd97
Head Coach
Posts: 6,324
And1: 2,505
Joined: Mar 29, 2007
Location: Toronto

Re: State of the Union. Team Canada Basketball. 

Post#29 » by Mattd97 » Mon Apr 6, 2015 7:43 pm

mojo13 wrote:
Mattd97 wrote:outside of wiggins, cojo and maybe olynyk, id say carl english is the best canadian player in the world right now. at the same time hes put in his time, and is used to being a primary option - a role that just shouldnt be his on the NT right now. I can see them still using him in the qualifying tournament for his offence, but if he wouldnt be on the olympic team anyways it might just make sense for both sides for him to retire internationally


I never understood why English doesn't get the respect he deserves. If you read his interviews last summer, I think he is committed to helping Canada qualify and then passing the torch. I still think we really need him - as a starter too, as I don't have confidence in Stauskas yet.


im not sure if this is in response to me, but calling someone the third/forth best canadian in the world shows my respect. hes just always been the guy carrying this team, thats always been his role. he's getting up there in age, and isn't going to be the guy on the near-future NTs. that's the only reason i say I could see both the NT and him deciding to call it a day
vergogna wrote:- game starts at 3.50
- nice passing at 4.15
- BARGS REBOUND at 4.47
- BARGS REBOUND (almost) at 6.23
User avatar
Mattd97
Head Coach
Posts: 6,324
And1: 2,505
Joined: Mar 29, 2007
Location: Toronto

Re: State of the Union. Team Canada Basketball. 

Post#30 » by Mattd97 » Mon Apr 6, 2015 7:47 pm

frumble wrote:
Mattd97 wrote:outside of wiggins, cojo and maybe olynyk, id say carl english is the best canadian player in the world right now. at the same time hes put in his time, and is used to being a primary option - a role that just shouldnt be his on the NT right now. I can see them still using him in the qualifying tournament for his offence, but if he wouldnt be on the olympic team anyways it might just make sense for both sides for him to retire internationally


If Stauskas doesn't participate (IMHO, a strong possibility), I think English would be a starter, or at least a primary back-up.

I think he is ahead of Rautins, Scrubb, Hanlan, and Mullings on the depth chart, and at least even with Heslip. Of course that assumes that English is interested, which may not be the case.


I think hes in a different stratosphere than the guys you named. I just think his role of carrying the team offensively is coming to an end, and it remains to be seen if he/they will be willing to change his natural role to more of a supportive player
vergogna wrote:- game starts at 3.50
- nice passing at 4.15
- BARGS REBOUND at 4.47
- BARGS REBOUND (almost) at 6.23
mojo13
Veteran
Posts: 2,603
And1: 1,904
Joined: Mar 25, 2014
   

Re: State of the Union. Team Canada Basketball. 

Post#31 » by mojo13 » Mon Apr 6, 2015 7:54 pm

Matt - we are on the same page. I have seen other comments (this thread and past ones) saying English should "go away" or has no part on the current team. I disagree and, like you, see English as a far better player than many other board commentators.
User avatar
AirCanadaMouse
Starter
Posts: 2,215
And1: 1,857
Joined: Nov 10, 2014
       

Re: State of the Union. Team Canada Basketball. 

Post#32 » by AirCanadaMouse » Mon Apr 6, 2015 8:19 pm

ValHoffa wrote:
AirCanadaMouse wrote:I miss Olu Famutimi.


he's been playing for the prince edward "island storm" of the NBL of Canada this year, playing as an 8th man and sometimes not even seeing the floor and has a few odd starts due to injuries. Olu isn't near the basketball player i thought he was… there is better canadian players in the NBL of Canada let alone the world.


Injuries have always derailed any potential he had. There was a lot of hype with him when he was in high school and I wish he had panned out because he was one of the first few basketball stars I've seen out of Toronto (along with Magloire). I didn't know how he was holding up these days, but I was hoping he had a shot at making the team because I think we're weak at SF. Unless they use Bennett as a backup SF (bad idea in fiba)
Image
Thank you Clutch0z24
frumble
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,523
And1: 742
Joined: Aug 23, 2012

Re: State of the Union. Team Canada Basketball. 

Post#33 » by frumble » Mon Apr 6, 2015 8:29 pm

AirCanadaMouse wrote:
ValHoffa wrote:
AirCanadaMouse wrote:I miss Olu Famutimi.


he's been playing for the prince edward "island storm" of the NBL of Canada this year, playing as an 8th man and sometimes not even seeing the floor and has a few odd starts due to injuries. Olu isn't near the basketball player i thought he was… there is better canadian players in the NBL of Canada let alone the world.


Injuries have always derailed any potential he had. There was a lot of hype with him when he was in high school and I wish he had panned out because he was one of the first few basketball stars I've seen out of Toronto (along with Magloire). I didn't know how he was holding up these days, but I was hoping he had a shot at making the team because I think we're weak at SF. Unless they use Bennett as a backup SF (bad idea in fiba)


I don't think he every fully recovered his leaping ability after tearing his ACL in high school.

Re weakness at SF, if Wiggins plays and K. Joseph returns to the program, we are solid. If not, we are looking at some combination of Shepherd, Doornekamp and maybe Pierre, and it is our weakest position.
frumble
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,523
And1: 742
Joined: Aug 23, 2012

Re: State of the Union. Team Canada Basketball. 

Post#34 » by frumble » Mon Apr 6, 2015 8:31 pm

mojo13 wrote:
Mattd97 wrote:outside of wiggins, cojo and maybe olynyk, id say carl english is the best canadian player in the world right now. at the same time hes put in his time, and is used to being a primary option - a role that just shouldnt be his on the NT right now. I can see them still using him in the qualifying tournament for his offence, but if he wouldnt be on the olympic team anyways it might just make sense for both sides for him to retire internationally


I never understood why English doesn't get the respect he deserves. If you read his interviews last summer, I think he is committed to helping Canada qualify and then passing the torch. I still think we really need him - as a starter too, as I don't have confidence in Stauskas yet.


I think he doesn't get the respect he deserves for the reasons you mention above - tendency to favor fringe NBA guys over Euro league stars (e.g., Rautins over English), and tendency to favor the new thing.

I think the biggest question re English is whether he wants to play for Canada anymore. Has his last-minute pull-out in 13 ever been explained? We really could have used him then.
frumble
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,523
And1: 742
Joined: Aug 23, 2012

Re: State of the Union. Team Canada Basketball. 

Post#35 » by frumble » Mon Apr 6, 2015 8:33 pm

mojo13 wrote:Frumble - I think Stauskas needs to participate. He was so bad this year, he has to play as much summer ball as possbile to get his confidence back. The summer leagues and the SMNT are going to be very important to him.


I hope he sees it that way too.
aminiaturebuddha
Head Coach
Posts: 6,812
And1: 7,415
Joined: Aug 07, 2006

Re: State of the Union. Team Canada Basketball. 

Post#36 » by aminiaturebuddha » Mon Apr 6, 2015 9:08 pm

frumble wrote:
mojo13 wrote:Frumble - I think Stauskas needs to participate. He was so bad this year, he has to play as much summer ball as possbile to get his confidence back. The summer leagues and the SMNT are going to be very important to him.


I hope he sees it that way too.


I fully agree as well. I'm sure there are specific things that he'll want to work on this summer (as should be the case for any player, frankly), but watching him this year it's really his confidence that is letting him down, he just doesn't seem sure what he should be doing on the court a lot of the time - a complete change from his time at Michigan, where his game bordered on cocky.

I'm really hoping that Nash can use their personal relationship (they've known each other distantly for years) to try to convince him to play by explaining how the NT helped out his game when he was getting started in the NBA by instilling that necessary confidence. I still think Stauskas has it in him to become a decent starting SG in the NBA, and he's started to play a little better lately, contributing in other ways when he isn't getting shots or they're not falling.
aminiaturebuddha
Head Coach
Posts: 6,812
And1: 7,415
Joined: Aug 07, 2006

Re: State of the Union. Team Canada Basketball. 

Post#37 » by aminiaturebuddha » Mon Apr 6, 2015 9:18 pm

Frumble - I like your list above of players likely to be included in the program over the next 2 years at the senior level (I assume you were thinking this would be the pool for this year and next as well if we qualify for the Olympics). I'm guessing that Devoe Joseph will be kicking around on the fringes as well, especially since he's played for the NT in the recent past.

I would love for Hanlan to commit and show enough to force their hand. I thought he was quite impressive this year, and has really worked on some of his weaknesses. It's probably unlikely that he would bump Heslip from the team in that 5th guard spot (assuming Stauskas, English, Joseph and Ennis have the others), but he can bring so much more than just the pure shooting that Heslip brings. It would be nice to have that versatility. However, as a likely 2nd round pick who might be without a guaranteed contract until late in the summer, this could be bad timing for him and the program.
Lowrys Chode
Banned User
Posts: 750
And1: 1,522
Joined: Dec 06, 2014

Re: State of the Union. Team Canada Basketball. 

Post#38 » by Lowrys Chode » Mon Apr 6, 2015 9:22 pm

ValHoffa wrote:
AirCanadaMouse wrote:I miss Olu Famutimi.


he's been playing for the prince edward "island storm" of the NBL of Canada this year, playing as an 8th man and sometimes not even seeing the floor and has a few odd starts due to injuries. Olu isn't near the basketball player i thought he was… there is better canadian players in the NBL of Canada let alone the world.

That team you have assembled in your sig, has to be the worst shooting team of the 21st century.
User avatar
Jai Monee
Veteran
Posts: 2,698
And1: 217
Joined: Dec 17, 2001
Location: downtown somewhere

Re: State of the Union. Team Canada Basketball. 

Post#39 » by Jai Monee » Mon Apr 6, 2015 9:28 pm

frumble wrote:
mojo13 wrote:
Mattd97 wrote:outside of wiggins, cojo and maybe olynyk, id say carl english is the best canadian player in the world right now. at the same time hes put in his time, and is used to being a primary option - a role that just shouldnt be his on the NT right now. I can see them still using him in the qualifying tournament for his offence, but if he wouldnt be on the olympic team anyways it might just make sense for both sides for him to retire internationally


I never understood why English doesn't get the respect he deserves. If you read his interviews last summer, I think he is committed to helping Canada qualify and then passing the torch. I still think we really need him - as a starter too, as I don't have confidence in Stauskas yet.


I think he doesn't get the respect he deserves for the reasons you mention above - tendency to favor fringe NBA guys over Euro league stars (e.g., Rautins over English), and tendency to favor the new thing.

I think the biggest question re English is whether he wants to play for Canada anymore. Has his last-minute pull-out in 13 ever been explained? We really could have used him then.


I think one of the issues regarding Carl English is how he perceives/perceived his role with the team. The last time around he refused to play the "spot up shooter" role, and went full "Im kobe". A ton of ill-advised shots, trying to do too much out there - and not much of it was falling. If he was asked to try out this time around, I don't think he'd make the squad, and maybe he shouldn't. There's a ton of up-and-coming talent that is the future of Canadian Basketball, they need to get a bit of burn now so they can parlay that experience down the road. I like Carl, he's a great Canadian success story, especially with his humble beginnings. But he's been with senior team since 2000, might be time to give the other kids a shot.
"I'm a spot-up shooter" - Rasho Nesterovic.
User avatar
ValHoffa
Junior
Posts: 365
And1: 343
Joined: Dec 24, 2013
Location: Prince Edward Island
       

Re: State of the Union. Team Canada Basketball. 

Post#40 » by ValHoffa » Mon Apr 6, 2015 10:16 pm

Lowrys Chode wrote:
ValHoffa wrote:
AirCanadaMouse wrote:I miss Olu Famutimi.


he's been playing for the prince edward "island storm" of the NBL of Canada this year, playing as an 8th man and sometimes not even seeing the floor and has a few odd starts due to injuries. Olu isn't near the basketball player i thought he was… there is better canadian players in the NBL of Canada let alone the world.

That team you have assembled in your sig, has to be the worst shooting team of the 21st century.


well good thing its only a 2k team, and obviously I'm not a fan of most shooters
C) JONAS VALANCIUNAS/steven adams/mitch mcgrary
F) KYLE OQUINN tyler hansbrough/anthony bennett
F) DEMAR DEROZAN/rodney hood/pj tucker
G) VICTOR OLADIPO/josh richardson/norman powell
G) KYLE LOWRY/jordan clarkson/jamal murray/elfrid payton

Return to Toronto Raptors