Kyle Lowry's prime vs. Isiah Thomas' prime (Zeke not the Leprechaun)

[duppyy]

That leprechaun is probably taller than most posters on realgm.

[NBA Sheady]

I'm shocked by the stats. I grew up watching Zeke and I wouldn't have put Lowry even close.

[LiSTWithLani]

Basketball reference currently has Lowry's hall of fame probability at 65%. A couple more good years as a starter followed by a couple years as a solid rotation player will probably be enough to get him in.

He's been a very good player on a very good team for a very long time. His reputation took a hit because of team playoff failures but with a ring now, that negative playoff perception is gone.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/hof_prob.html

Especially with his performance in the championship clinching game!

[bluerap23]

Would love to see this done with Chauncey too

[Quattro]

As much as I love Lowry, Isiah is in a different league. I wonder how many of you have actually seen IT play. Numbers might be similar but it was a completely different game back then. Lowry will go down as a very good player who played a pivotal role in our Championship run. But Zeke is a true HoF who actually carried his team through out his career. Sure we all hated him as a GM, but let's not let that crowd our judgement.

You nailed one of the two big problems with this thread. The other is rampant, unabashed homerism.

Some analytics geek comes up with a stat that incredibly strips away the very huge differences in the game today compared to 1988 and makes players of all eras completely comparable so Lowry > Zeke now.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

Zeke's a first ballot.

This is silly.

It's silly that Zeke is a first ballot tbh

I mean, he was the first option on a team that won multiples.

People look at the stats, like they matter. They look past the fact the him and Laimbeer dominated the league for the better half of a decade with those stats.

That's really the problem with going back more than a decade for a comparison. They aren't really playing the same game.

[Quattro]

Zeke's a first ballot.

This is silly.

It's silly that Zeke is a first ballot tbh

I mean, he was the first option on a team that won multiples.

People look at the stats, like they matter. They look past the fact the him and Laimbeer dominated the league for the better half of a decade with those stats.

That's really the problem with going back more than a decade for a comparison. They aren't really playing the same game.

Yep. Totally silly.

Being the lead dog on a team that won consecutive championships (and came close to 3 in a row) in an era with the showtime lakers, Larry Bird Celtics AND Michael Jordan Bulls. He was so overrated because analytics!

[ropjhk]

you can't rely on comparing stats between players from 2 different eras

It's pace adjusted and Lowry has better advanced stats across the boards.

Isiah has a case in any discussion for best PG's of all time... Lowry not so much

So the make case for Zeke because the numbers above don't. They say Lowry is clearly better.

THESE STATS ARE FAKE!!!!

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thomais01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/lowryky01.html

Lowry's average points scored in his 7 years as a Raptor is 17.4
Thomas's average points in his 7 year peak (between the 1983 to 1989) is 20.7

I don't know how the stats in that poll were calculated but a quick verification shows the stats are wrong.

[ropjhk]

Lowry only average over 20 ppg twice as a Raptor. Zeke did it 5 years in a row. Andy Bailey has some explaining to do.

[ruckus]

Lowry only average over 20 ppg twice as a Raptor. Zeke did it 5 years in a row. Andy Bailey has some explaining to do.

The stats are pace adjusted to put them on "even" footing.

However, even with the pace adjustment, you just can't compare stats from different eras. The game is a different animal now.

[ruckus]

At the end of the day, comparing Kyle to Zeke is completely arbitrary and random. Their games are different and their roles within the team are different.

Lowry is still definitely underrated when compared to his peers over the past 7 years but comparing him to Zeke? There are better arguments to be made as to how Lowry has been one of the best 2-way PGs during his time in Toronto.

[Johnny Bball]

Isiah Thomas was a better player. Period. You move Lowry to 1990 and it's not so similar.

And if you didn't see him play, why are you even arguing.

[ruckus]

Isiah Thomas was a better player. Period. You move Lowry to 1990 and it's not so similar.

And if you didn't see him play, why are you even arguing.

I'm not arguing whether or not Lowry is better than Zeke but Lowry's style of play would have worked pretty well in the 90's. He could have taken the physicality of that era. I'd only question whether or not he's a good enough finisher in the midrange and at the bucket to play 80/90's ball.

[Patman]

As much as I love Lowry, Isiah is in a different league. I wonder how many of you have actually seen IT play. Numbers might be similar but it was a completely different game back then. Lowry will go down as a very good player who played a pivotal role in our Championship run. But Zeke is a true HoF who actually carried his team through out his career. Sure we all hated him as a GM, but let's not let that crowd our judgement.

This. Isiah always made sure his team's offence was churning. There's more to running an offence than just points and assists, otherwise Westbrook would be in the GOAT PG conversation.

Thomas was the best player on back-to-back title teams and beat very good teams and a number of Hall-of-Famers.

[NBJ13]

Isiah's Pistons battled against Bird/Celts and Magic/Lakers and held off MJ/Bulls for as long as they could and had multiple Finals appearances and came away with back to back trophies

Up until this year, Lowry's rep was shrinking in the spotlight against the game's best

[XxIronChainzxX]

Lmaooo... And yet all these players praise Isaiah like he's some demigod and talk about Lowry as if he's a mediocre role player. It's **** absurd. Never understood why Lowry was so disrespected in mainstream basketball circles.

It's entirely the meltdown early in the playoffs. And I don't mean his - I mean the team. DD escaped criticism and got credit.

[Patman]

That leprechaun is probably taller than most posters on realgm.

Doubt it. Average RealGM poster is 6-foot-3 chiseled.

[Johnny Bball]

Lmaooo... And yet all these players praise Isaiah like he's some demigod and talk about Lowry as if he's a mediocre role player. It's **** absurd. Never understood why Lowry was so disrespected in mainstream basketball circles.

It's entirely the meltdown early in the playoffs. And I don't mean his - I mean the team. DD escaped criticism and got credit.

LOL!

[XxIronChainzxX]

Lmaooo... And yet all these players praise Isaiah like he's some demigod and talk about Lowry as if he's a mediocre role player. It's **** absurd. Never understood why Lowry was so disrespected in mainstream basketball circles.

It's entirely the meltdown early in the playoffs. And I don't mean his - I mean the team. DD escaped criticism and got credit.

LOL!

While on this forum the reaction was mixed, I think in general media circles Lowry drew more ire than DD. I take it you disagree.

[3Si]

As much as I love Lowry, Isiah is in a different league. I wonder how many of you have actually seen IT play. Numbers might be similar but it was a completely different game back then. Lowry will go down as a very good player who played a pivotal role in our Championship run. But Zeke is a true HoF who actually carried his team through out his career. Sure we all hated him as a GM, but let's not let that crowd our judgement.

True, but not only has Lowry put up some great numbers during his stint in Toronto, but he's been an advanced stat and intangibles king - leading the league in charges multiple teams, among the league leaders in RPM, in deflections etc.

He was the best player on a team that has had the 2nd best record in the NBA over the course of a 5 year span, just after the Warriors. That is very, very impressive.

Anybody who's followed the Raptors closely knows that Lowry has been the engine of our great teams - without him and we fall apart.

The only thing holding Lowry back from getting into the HOF is the perception of him as a playoff choker which has way overblown. I think only after this recent playoff stint has the American media starting noticing and appreciating who Lowry is as a player. Now we are finally seeing people acknowledge how vital Lowry is to the team and how great of a two-way player he actually is - something we have noticed for years now, but very few who have not followed our team closely have noticed.

As I said before, advance stats today is extremely different than back then. Think about how different the game is called. The charges that you see Lowry gets would have been a no call back then. You learned to take that hit because the moment you flop to the ground is when your opponent scores on you then laugh in your face. (Shawn Kemp dunk comes to mind) I do not doubt that Lowry was the engine of our team and a true leader. He made some really important baskets during this run that turned the game around. On the other hand, Isiah did this through out his entire career. The mere fact that he is capable of getting under Jordan's skin is good enough to put him in the HoF. I did not enjoy the Bad Boy's style of game, but to be able to win a Championship in that era with the relatively limited talent level on that team. They did what they had to to get it done. That mental toughness is rarely seen in today's game. His play making ability during his prime years is Stockton like. His ability to lead the team is by far superior to Lowry.