it's 2015 all over again

[Johnny Bball]

I don't think anyone is arguing that we should Blow the entire team up & get rid of everybody. If they are suggesting we do that, then they are probably delusional.

You don't blow up the core of Fred, Pascal, and OG who have won a championship. You add to that.

Need to find a starting center and get some bench depth.

A lot of that could be acquired by trading either Kyle or Norm. Perhaps in the draft as well (Although I still don't think this team will bottom out to the lottery when all is said and done)

Oh that's simply just not true. But then again, it changes by the day.

[HEKTOR]

Let's face it, this team won't get anywhere without a true superstar like Kawhi (or of his level). We had Serge and Gasol last year, and we weren't close. People have to accept the fact that while Lowry is a good player, he's not your first or even 2nd option guy if you expect to contend. Siakam has shown he can be a #2 option if paired with a legit star like Kawhi who can attract the double and open things up for him. Siakam, FVV, OG, + Kyle and/or Norm simply isn't good enough. At the moment it looks like it might not even be good enough for the playoffs although I think covid has had a big role in that. But let's say you add Jarrett Allen to that core - we still aren't contending.

[elecblue]

I can see that parallel. This current team has gone through so much grind since COVID broke out. I honestly think our best lineup (Kyle, FVV, Norm, OG, Pascal) can still win a playoff series by themselves, but playing this group in the regular season with bad centers and a below-average bench is just too taxing. Besides, I don't think it's smart to win that battle (win a playoff series) and lose the war (lose Kyle and Norm for nothing this summer, especially after losing Marc and Serge for nothing last year). Even if we trade away Kyle and Norm this week, the core of Pascal/FVV/OG is a great starting point. The key is to surround them with quality players. Masai did it last time mostly by drafting exceptionally well - Norm, Delon, Pascal, Jakob, FVV, OG. I have full confidence in him to do it again.

[HEKTOR]

I can see that parallel. This current team has gone through so much grind since COVID broke out. I honestly think our best lineup (Kyle, FVV, Norm, OG, Pascal) can still win a playoff series by themselves, but playing this group in the regular season with bad centers and a below-average bench is just too taxing. Besides, I don't think it's smart to win that battle (win a playoff series) and lose the war (lose Kyle and Norm for nothing this summer, especially after losing Marc and Serge for nothing last year). Even if we trade away Kyle and Norm this week, the core of Pascal/FVV/OG is a great starting point. The key is to surround them with quality players. Masai did it last time mostly by drafting exceptionally well - Norm, Delon, Pascal, Jakob, FVV, OG. I have full confidence in him to do it again.

Against who? They can't finish top-4 in the East, so, you think they could suddenly beat the likes of the Nets, Celtics, Sixers, or Bucks in a best of 7? It's not happening. We aren't beating Miami either, so, why even talk about the bottom 2 teams when we'd need to be a top-seed to play them?

[Ref_from_hell]

Let's face it, this team won't get anywhere without a true superstar like Kawhi (or of his level). We had Serge and Gasol last year, and we weren't close. People have to accept the fact that while Lowry is a good player, he's not your first or even 2nd option guy if you expect to contend. Siakam has shown he can be a #2 option if paired with a legit star like Kawhi who can attract the double and open things up for him. Siakam, FVV, OG, + Kyle and/or Norm simply isn't good enough. At the moment it looks like it might not even be good enough for the playoffs although I think covid has had a big role in that. But let's say you add Jarrett Allen to that core - we still aren't contending.

If not for a global pandemic, we likely beat Boston and make the finals. So please tell me how the team "wasn't close"

Last year's team was the best we've had in the Kyle era aside from 2019

[Ref_from_hell]

I don't think anyone is arguing that we should Blow the entire team up & get rid of everybody. If they are suggesting we do that, then they are probably delusional.

You don't blow up the core of Fred, Pascal, and OG who have won a championship. You add to that.

Need to find a starting center and get some bench depth.

A lot of that could be acquired by trading either Kyle or Norm. Perhaps in the draft as well (Although I still don't think this team will bottom out to the lottery when all is said and done)

The core that won the championship is Kyle, Kawhi, FVV, Pascal and Ibaka/Gasol. And that core is already broken.

The core of FVV, Pascal, and OG has won nothing...

They are still good players who won a championship and have championship experience. That counts for something whether you like it or not

[Badonkadonk]

I don't think anyone is arguing that we should Blow the entire team up & get rid of everybody. If they are suggesting we do that, then they are probably delusional.

You don't blow up the core of Fred, Pascal, and OG who have won a championship. You add to that.

Need to find a starting center and get some bench depth.

A lot of that could be acquired by trading either Kyle or Norm. Perhaps in the draft as well (Although I still don't think this team will bottom out to the lottery when all is said and done)

The people who think there are top 5 picks coming are implicitly saying that. I've had that debate on here - in a normal season, where Fred/Pascal/OG are available and Nick has league-average rotational players, this team won't bottom out.

I agree with you that you need to build on that, because the alternative is to truly gut everything, which would be stupid for a variety of reasons.

[Johnny Bball]

"Starting centre" is just a phrase people are throwing around at this point. We gotta deal with real names and how to get those pieces. Just saying let's get starting level centre means nothing.

OG Anunoby closing games and add a good PF/SF that plays both ways. The centre who starts almost doesn't matter. It's how would you beat the top 6 teams.

Kiind of why I'm sweet on Collins and to a certain extent Gordon.

[Anticon]

The core of Siakam, FVV and OG is nice, but that's a lot of cash dedicated to what are most likely non all-stars.

If we re-sign Norm, it'll be even more so.

So with our cap space looking potentially gone or quite low, the question is what can you build around that group to be competitive?

We didn't have this type of salary pressure in 2015.

Pascal, OG, and Fred will make a combined 67mil next year. That’s not a lot of cash out of 109mil cap space...

If we get a top 5 pick this year that’s around another 10mil for a total of 77mil for a core of top 5 pick, OG, pascal, fvv.

That would then leave room to add a close to max player if we shuffle some role player contracts around through trades so they’d expire in the same off season.

When none of the guys are all star caliber players, it's a problem.

Obviously there's still room to adjust but right now it's a pretty strong concentration of salary on guys that will get you into the second round if you're lucky.

[HEKTOR]

If not for a global pandemic, we likely beat Boston and make the finals. So please tell me how the team "wasn't close"

Why would we get the advantage if not for the pandemic and no one else? I believe we had more or less our entire team while other teams couldn't say the same with injuries, covid, etc.

Last year's team was the best we've had in the Kyle era aside from 2019

So what? That doesn't make us any better, does it? The other teams we had before had little to no chance either.

[Ref_from_hell]

If not for a global pandemic, we likely beat Boston and make the finals. So please tell me how the team "wasn't close"

Why would we get the advantage if not for the pandemic and no one else? I believe we had more or less our entire team while other teams couldn't say the same with injuries, covid, etc.

Last year's team was the best we've had in the Kyle era aside from 2019

So what? That doesn't make us any better, does it? The other teams we had before had little to no chance either.

The raptors worked hard all year to get home court advantage. Playing game seven at Scotia Bank Arena means a lot. We lost to Boston in seven games despite our best player being in preseason game shape and having no interest in playing. That team was destined to make the finals and they were good enough to make the finals. All of that was derailed because of the virus.

[MixxSRC]

I think the argument is that FVV/Siakam/OG are not untouchable. If there's the right deal you absolutely gotta take a look into it. There won't be one most likely. But most pressing issue is Norm and Lowry and what to do with them.

[elecblue]

This 5 plus Serge were pretty much all we had to push the Celtics team last year to 7. I know Nets have historically good offense, Sixers look complete, Bucks have better closing lineup than last year. But I don't think we are a pushover against any of them. Maybe I'm just more optimistic in this team than you. But my point is, it's not worth it to go all-out to try to win a round this year and put ourselves in a worse position long-term. (I think we agree on that).

I can see that parallel. This current team has gone through so much grind since COVID broke out. I honestly think our best lineup (Kyle, FVV, Norm, OG, Pascal) can still win a playoff series by themselves, but playing this group in the regular season with bad centers and a below-average bench is just too taxing. Besides, I don't think it's smart to win that battle (win a playoff series) and lose the war (lose Kyle and Norm for nothing this summer, especially after losing Marc and Serge for nothing last year). Even if we trade away Kyle and Norm this week, the core of Pascal/FVV/OG is a great starting point. The key is to surround them with quality players. Masai did it last time mostly by drafting exceptionally well - Norm, Delon, Pascal, Jakob, FVV, OG. I have full confidence in him to do it again.

Against who? They can't finish top-4 in the East, so, you think they could suddenly beat the likes of the Nets, Celtics, Sixers, or Bucks in a best of 7? It's not happening. We aren't beating Miami either, so, why even talk about the bottom 2 teams when we'd need to be a top-seed to play them?

[Marty_Budda]

The core of Siakam, FVV and OG is nice, but that's a lot of cash dedicated to what are most likely non all-stars.

If we re-sign Norm, it'll be even more so.

So with our cap space looking potentially gone or quite low, the question is what can you build around that group to be competitive?

We didn't have this type of salary pressure in 2015.

Pascal, OG, and Fred will make a combined 67mil next year. That’s not a lot of cash out of 109mil cap space...

If we get a top 5 pick this year that’s around another 10mil for a total of 77mil for a core of top 5 pick, OG, pascal, fvv.

That would then leave room to add a close to max player if we shuffle some role player contracts around through trades so they’d expire in the same off season.

When none of the guys are all star caliber players, it's a problem.

Obviously there's still room to adjust but right now it's a pretty strong concentration of salary on guys that will get you into the second round if you're lucky.

Siakam was an all star last year.

But even if they’re not all star caliber players at the very least they’re elite two way role players that would just need a go to all star scorer and everyone will slide into their roles.

[HEKTOR]

The raptors worked hard all year to get home court advantage. Playing game seven at Scotia Bank Arena means a lot. We lost to Boston in seven games despite our best player being in preseason game shape and having no interest in playing. That team was destined to make the finals and they were good enough to make the finals. All of that was derailed because of the virus.

And no other team was effected by covid and the bubble? Right, you keep telling yourself that.

[Anticon]

The core of Siakam, FVV and OG is nice, but that's a lot of cash dedicated to what are most likely non all-stars.

If we re-sign Norm, it'll be even more so.

So with our cap space looking potentially gone or quite low, the question is what can you build around that group to be competitive?

We didn't have this type of salary pressure in 2015.

At one point we were capped out just from Lowry/Demar/Carroll/Valanciunas which is not any better than FVV/Norm/OG/Siakam.

You guys don’t understand that we aren’t going to sign anyone of value with our cap space and realistically very few teams ever do. If we ever acquire a star it’ll be through trade or a sign and trade. If Giannis requests a trade and targets Toronto, I’m pretty sure Milwaukee would be fairly excited to get back and OG or Norm rather than losing him for nothing

The 2015 core were the assets that built a championship contender so until proven otherwise that is a better core. It also had two all stars whereas this team likely has zero going forward.

And the defeatism around cap room misses what cap space can actually be used for. No, we aren't going to sign Kevin Durant or Kawhi.

But cap room gives teams the flexibility to take back players into space and to receive dead salary for picks.

Eroding that away with extensions for mid tier guys with theoretical trade value is a solid recipe for treadmilling. It's not clear to me why a trade for a Giannis type player is any less of a hail Mary hope than signing him was.

[Marty_Budda]

The raptors worked hard all year to get home court advantage. Playing game seven at Scotia Bank Arena means a lot. We lost to Boston in seven games despite our best player being in preseason game shape and having no interest in playing. That team was destined to make the finals and they were good enough to make the finals. All of that was derailed because of the virus.

And no other team was effected by covid and the bubble? Right, you keep telling yourself that.

Lets be serious. We beat Boston if we had home court advantage. Bucks were also affected.

I hate to say it but clippers were also affected.

Home court advantage with a crowd definitely matters. Last year the Celtics series every “home” game the raptors lost and every “away” game they won. When has that ever happened in a playoff series with a crowd?

[HEKTOR]

This 5 plus Serge were pretty much all we had to push the Celtics team last year to 7. I know Nets have historically good offense, Sixers look complete, Bucks have better closing lineup than last year. But I don't think we are a pushover against any of them. Maybe I'm just more optimistic in this team than you. But my point is, it's not worth it to go all-out to try to win a round this year and put ourselves in a worse position long-term. (I think we agree on that).

But the whole point is who are we going to beat in the playoffs? And what does 'all-out' look like? This team is struggling and will most likely only get worse since Lowry isn't getting any younger. Plus, we don't have a guy on the team that can consistently get things done when need be like Kawhi did. Our guys are either not good enough or scared.

We are what we are, perhaps a 'good' treadmill team when healthy and complete. We don't have a big man, and we don't have enough talent on either side of the floor to keep up with today's game.

I don't believe we can compete with the big teams in the East let alone the West. And I honestly believe that if we had Kawhi right now, we wouldn't be able to beat them either - simply because we're too small. We'd need Kawhi and at least 1 serviceable big man.

[Yeezus_]

Didnt we have the second best record in the East in 2016 following this lol? 1 game behind the Cavs...

[JB7]

I think a good point of comparison is GSW. Not in terms of players but rather opportunity.

Last year because of injuries, they tanked and ended up with a high draft pick. A quick rebuild and they are back in playoff contention, and contending status if Klay returns to somewhat previous levels.

Because of Covid, playing in Tampa and lack of C, Raps are able to move some older players, tank for a high pick, and replace with some younger talent and quickly rebuild on the fly around the core of FVV, OG and PS.

Then maybe they have enough assets to trade for a #1 option. Mind you, they are in the East, so they could be really competitive without that #1 option.

Also, it depends on how you define that #1 option. Kawhi was more than just a number #1 option. He was elite on the level of a LeBron or KD, even if for a shorter period of time. So acquiring that type of talent might not be reasonable expectation for the future. Getting Kawhi was a 1 in a million opportunity the last time.