Fred "bet on yourself" Van Vleet

[LoveMyRaps]

Been said time & time again. He'd be great as our starting SG. But just doesn't possess the playmaking abilities & offensive IQ for him to excel as our starting PG.

I'd lose to see a backcourt of Barnes/FVV. I think they'd be great together. Barnes would always find FVV for those easy swishes. Freddy would be a much more efficient shooter in that role.

[Reeko]

He's got some great attributes, great defender, good shooter and solid rebounder. I'm not sure he reads the game quickly very well though, and at times I question his feel for the game on the offensive end.

In fairness to him, this is his first time having full responsibility at the point guard position, so it's only reasonable that we give him time to grow into it. In a sense he's still figuring who he's going to be as a player.

Going forward I would like to see the style of play he displayed tonight, that of a facilitator. He only took 13 shots which I find much more palatable than when he takes 20.

Personally, I will try to refrain from making declarations that he is not the point guard of the future. I'll give him a chance to clean up his game. Who knows maybe he'll surprise some of us, it's not like he hasn't done it before.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

Not sure why he doesn't initiate the offense earlier. We are often getting bad looks with the shot clock being the 6th defender when Freddy over dribbles trying to make something out of nothing.

This seems easy enough to correct but it feels like we have had this issue for a while.

His comment about seeing everyone at the same height the other day legitimately pissed me off.

FVV handles the ball for too long for a guy who isn't a prolific scorer or elite playmaker. Most of his teammates are just watching him after the initial movement and cuts did nothing or he missed them and he is just standing there dribbling the ball to infinity. perhaps at 5'11" thats his weakness.

[Peja Stojakovic]

the team needs a second ball handler badly

[Psubs]

He's got some great attributes, great defender, good shooter and solid rebounder. I'm not sure he reads the game quickly very well though, and at times I question his feel for the game on the offensive end.

In fairness to him, this is his first time having full responsibility at the point guard position, so it's only reasonable that we give him time to grow into it. In a sense he's still figuring who he's going to be as a player.

Going forward I would like to see the style of play he displayed tonight, that of a facilitator. He only took 13 shots which I find much more palatable than when he takes 20.

Personally, I will try to refrain from making declarations that he is not the point guard of the future. I'll give him a chance to clean up his game. Who knows maybe he'll surprise some of us, it's not like he hasn't done it before.

Yes, really this year he was supposed to share the duties with Pascal. Right now the ball sticks with the Rookie starting in the half-court.

[johanliebert]

Turnovers come with trying to create plays. That’s why some of the best playmakers lead the league in turnovers and the guys scared to take risks have the gaudy assists to turnover ratios.

You guys also take the bet in yourself moniker too far. I’ve seen some posters try to psychoanalyze when all the guy did was brand himself during his contract year as an undrafted player.

[johanliebert]

he has his great qualities - set shooter, some clutchness, plays well within the system, great when moving the ball.

and then bad qualities - somewhat tunnel vision at times, can't finish at the rim - like one of the lowest FG% at the rim from a guard perhaps, holding the ball for too long.

well for a 5'11 guy. its pretty good.

Why does nobody mention he’s good in the pick and roll? Quite few run it as smooth as he does.

[DelAbbot]

What's killing Fred right now are turnovers and his dribble drives that result in nothing. That's on him, the other players, and Nick's system. Teammates need to move and present themselves so that Fred can hit them with a pass. We need to mix it up with more post ups.

I agree, teammates will need to move around when Fred goes into his drives. The problem is that if they take away the pick & roll or the pass out for a three, he really struggles finding the cutter. I think one reason is his wingspan limitations and getting it through the larger defender.

As a lead guard he has ways to go on his IQ and feel for the game which is something Lowry had down pat. He needs to learn when to shoot and when to pass in the flow of the game and not force the issue. I feel like we need to get him off ball and run around like curry for us to be a more dynamic team.

Everyone on realgm knows FVV playing off ball would help this team win more but Nurse just doesn't buy it. Maybe due to lack of trust in other ball handlers.

[Def Leppard]

Turnovers come with trying to create plays. That’s why some of the best playmakers lead the league in turnovers and the guys scared to take risks have the gaudy assists to turnover ratios.

You guys also take the bet in yourself moniker too far. I’ve seen some posters try to psychoanalyze when all the guy did was brand himself during his contract year as an undrafted player.

No disrespect meant by "bet on yourself", dudes made that a house hold phrase in hoop circles and he certainly embodies it.



Sent from my SM-G981W using RealGM mobile app

[Westside Gunn]

think we need to give freddy time in this new role? first season as the team leader and main PG. has some mentorship from dragic. maybe give it another 15 games to see if he can run a team? lowry had to go through battles too.

[Def Leppard]

think we need to give freddy time in this new role? first season as the team leader and main PG. has some mentorship from dragic. maybe give it another 15 games to see if he can run a team? lowry had to go through battles too.

This is a great point and something I need to keep in mind too

Sent from my SM-G981W using RealGM mobile app

[KrazyP]

When the roster has a talent gap, this board has a history of selecting a high profile player to over analyze/use as a whipping boy.

This team lacks playmakers. VanVleet is pretty much the ONLY guy that can do it and its not even natural for him. Barnes may be able to do it in the future but he's not ready yet. Dragic looks washed. Trent has tunnel vision. OG's more of a finisher. Siakam will help a little when he gets back.

A guy like Lonzo Ball would have looked magnificent on this team.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

he has his great qualities - set shooter, some clutchness, plays well within the system, great when moving the ball.

and then bad qualities - somewhat tunnel vision at times, can't finish at the rim - like one of the lowest FG% at the rim from a guard perhaps, holding the ball for too long.

well for a 5'11 guy. its pretty good.

Why does nobody mention he’s good in the pick and roll? Quite few run it as smooth as he does.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/ball-handler/#!?SeasonYear=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PPP&dir=1

36th in these types of plays.
he's about the 33rd best guy in PnRs in terms of points generated by him in a PnR.

i'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Raps have not had a great PnR big man to use. - Maybe Barnes and Precious can be useful in those situations.

[vado]

We need to give Fred an honest chance at taking over for Lowry. We've been talking about this season for a couple of years. Either Fred adapts without Lowry and becomes a better pg or proves he's an undersized sg. We need to test this out long term and not just a few games

[JN]

he has his great qualities - set shooter, some clutchness, plays well within the system, great when moving the ball.

and then bad qualities - somewhat tunnel vision at times, can't finish at the rim - like one of the lowest FG% at the rim from a guard perhaps, holding the ball for too long.

well for a 5'11 guy. its pretty good.

He also has positive value as a defender.

He also plays with 100% heart and hard minutes on the court. He still has those weaknesses though.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

he has his great qualities - set shooter, some clutchness, plays well within the system, great when moving the ball.

and then bad qualities - somewhat tunnel vision at times, can't finish at the rim - like one of the lowest FG% at the rim from a guard perhaps, holding the ball for too long.

well for a 5'11 guy. its pretty good.

He also has positive value as a defender.

He also plays with 100% heart and hard minutes on the court. He still has those weaknesses though.

Truth.

[Indeed]

https://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2021/02/01/fred-vanvleet-is-now-the-most-important-player-for-these-toronto-raptors/


Like so bizarre. Not only does FVV NOT have a TO problem. He's never had a TO problem. He was literally the BEST player in the league in respect turnovers.

Do you know if this statistic is based on total turn overs or turn over to assist ratio? The best way to predict future behavior is past behavior so you would hope this would hold true, despite his plus minus as it pertains to assist and turn overs, turn overs were still high tonight (specifically)

Sent from my SM-G981W using RealGM mobile app

FVV had the best AST/TO ratio on the team the last two years. Last year his 3.5 AST/TO ratio was 7th in the entire league among eligible players and he had the lowest TOV% among those players because of his higher USG%. Turnovers is literally the least of FVV's issues. One game doesn't change that.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using RealGM Forums mobile app

Couple of things from this game.
1) It looks like an experimental game, we had some surprise lineup, such as lineup with Trent being the only sub 6'8 player
2) VanVleet has been a safe passer in his career, we are trying to develop his passing
3) Our previous teams had stretch bigs to make him look better, and we may need him to adjust

What I think is, we will see growing plains, VanVleet has been a safe passer, and it will help him if he can develop his passing.
Meanwhile, I wouldn't worry too much, as the system can adjust or our bigs can improve as well (positioning better or stretch the floor better).

[Ell Curry]

When the roster has a talent gap, this board has a history of selecting a high profile player to over analyze/use as a whipping boy.

This team lacks playmakers. VanVleet is pretty much the ONLY guy that can do it and its not even natural for him. Barnes may be able to do it in the future but he's not ready yet. Dragic looks washed. Trent has tunnel vision. OG's more of a finisher. Siakam will help a little when he gets back.

A guy like Lonzo Ball would have looked magnificent on this team.

Yeah, I wish we'd let Lowry go and just traded say Boucher and a 2nd to New Orleans for Lonzo in a sign and trade like they did with Satoransky and Temple, but Lonzo might have preferred Chicago.

Van Vleet would definitely be a better fit in the role Dragic is sort of playing (though he hasn't thrived in it so isn't playing big minutes).

Tall Ballhandler - Van Vleet - Barnes - Siakam - OG
with a bench led by Trent and Achiuwa playing 25 a game each is hopefully the idea for next year IF we're not trading Siakam and Van Vleet and just building around youth, though this draft doesn't really have a bunch of Cade types who combine height and potential PG skills.

Right now I could see us ending up in the 8-11 range and drafting one of the big shooting wings like Houstan, Jabari Smith or Patrick Baldwin Jr. and trying to run a ton through Scottie and Siakam with OG, that pick and Van Vleet as the shooters and hopefully being really tough to guard by virtue of the passing and driving ability of everyone.

That would leave Fred with still too much to do from a running the offense perspective but sadly it doesn't look like a Ball or Luka or Cade style wing sized PG is going to be there to pick things, though if we hit on the pick we should have 5 proper scorers in the closing lineup and Achiuwa and Trent who are decent finishers at 22 and should improve in their respective fields (becoming Montrezl Harrell with a passable 3pt shot for Achiuwa, becoming a better shooter off screens and relocator for Trent, who right now seems to only get 3s off of the dribble or basic shoot and catch ones).

I don't think we're going to go small, and unless we blow it up my guess is the goal is to find another wing and with Siakam back, have 7 guys all between 18 and like 24 percent. Right now OG is at 24 and Van Vleet and Barnes at 22. If we replace the low usage minutes of Dragic (15) and Svi (19) on the perimeter with a rookie at around 18 and then Birch (10!) and Boucher's (27!) with Siakam getting about 24 that should allow for shaving off a few of Van Vleet's usage, and we can look something like this:

Frontcourt:
Achiuwa 26 minutes - 19%
Siakam 32 minutes - 24%
OG 32 minutes - 24%
Barnes 32 minutes - 24%
Big Man X 22 minutes - 15%

Backcourt:
Van Vleet 30 minutes - 20%
2022 Draft Wing 25 minutes - 18%
Trent Jr 25 minutes - 18%
Wing/Guard Y (Flynn or Banton) - 16%

So basically, we need to draft a wing and then Masai will hopefully look to finish off the 9 man rotation by turn Birch and maybe a future pick on a proper big like he did in getting Gasol to finish the championship team off, and one of the young guys like Banton or Flynn developing into a rotation guy, though honestly we might need to make a move on that spot even though an 8 man rotation is probably enough.

We're in a good place if we grab another 10 pick and Masai can hit it again. A proper center can be found via trade if you'll give up a first rounder when the time comes.

[Raps in 4]

He's a third/fourth option on a team (and paid like one) thrust into the primary role. He's a good player, but he's out of his element.

[mdenny]

What's killing Fred right now are turnovers and his dribble drives that result in nothing. That's on him, the other players, and Nick's system. Teammates need to move and present themselves so that Fred can hit them with a pass. We need to mix it up with more post ups.

This is ridiculous. By 'right now' do you mean 1 game? Because fred has been the least turnover prone raptor for 2 years now. Much less than kyle. I think he was averaging less than half of kyle's TOs last year.

Yeah but if it is one game it's a fair criticism no?

Sent from my SM-G981W using RealGM mobile app

It's like saying "steph curry needs to work on his shot" after a bad shooting night. Fred is elite in this area. It's not an area of his game he needs to work on.