Is Fred a true point guard?

[LBJKB24MJ23]

It's an irrelevant distinction. "True" PGs is a misnomer because being a scoring threat how you generate advantage that becomes easy scoring opportunities for teammates.

Dame/Steph/Luka/Trae/Ja/Shai etc are all elite scoring the ball - the focus they demand is what makes it easy for them to exploit the defense.

FVV, like SIakam, are both miscast a slot above where they should be as scoring options. They would both look so much better with a legit #1. Fact is we don't have one and we're forced to make do. Sometimes they look good and sometimes they look bad. That's why they aren't elite players and why we're a mid-level team.

Until Barnes is ready (and he's absolutely not ready) to take on more primary usage, FVV has to shoulder more burden than he's capable of. He's doing an admirable job given the tough situation he's in.

Exactly, I always laugh when I hear that FVV isn't a true point guard as if there are tons of true point guards floating around the league these days. Like you said, our biggest problem is that our guys are asked to do too much. They need to be slotted down in the pecking order. This team is actually a talented team but we are missing that true #1 scorer. Once we get one then Pascal can be slotted as our #2, FVV our #3, OG our #4 etc.

I think that is what everyone has been saying since day 1. everyone hates FVV the playmaker but loves the off ball FVV shot maker/defender

[WaltFrazier]

It's an irrelevant distinction. "True" PGs is a misnomer because being a scoring threat how you generate advantage that becomes easy scoring opportunities for teammates.

Dame/Steph/Luka/Trae/Ja/Shai etc are all elite scoring the ball - the focus they demand is what makes it easy for them to exploit the defense.

FVV, like SIakam, are both miscast a slot above where they should be as scoring options. They would both look so much better with a legit #1. Fact is we don't have one and we're forced to make do. Sometimes they look good and sometimes they look bad. That's why they aren't elite players and why we're a mid-level team.

Until Barnes is ready (and he's absolutely not ready) to take on more primary usage, FVV has to shoulder more burden than he's capable of. He's doing an admirable job given the tough situation he's in.

Exactly, I always laugh when I hear that FVV isn't a true point guard as if there are tons of true point guards floating around the league these days. Like you said, our biggest problem is that our guys are asked to do too much. They need to be slotted down in the pecking order. This team is actually a talented team but we are missing that true #1 scorer. Once we get one then Pascal can be slotted as our #2, FVV our #3, OG our #4 etc.

The point is, Fred is not one of those few traditional point guards like Kyle and Chris Paul, but he's also not an explosive scorer like "Dame/Steph/Luka/Trae/Ja/Shai" either. He doesn't make teammates better with nifty point guard passes, and he doesn't create open 3's with drawing two defenders like those high scoring guys either.

Without Kyle, he needs to be a spot up 2 with a little extra dribbling skill, paired with a big point guard like Lonzo Ball to be effective.

[johanliebert]

Yes he’s a legit starting point guard.

Now if your definition is pure playmaker then you have an archaic viewpoint.

[Bruin]

Yes he’s a legit starting point guard.

Now if your definition is pure playmaker then you have an archaic viewpoint.

So playmaking PGs are now archaic?

[Tor_Raps]

Hes def not a PG but a still damn good player. Hope people don't get the two things confused.

[Reeko]

Hes def not a PG but a still damn good player. Hope people don't get the two things confused.

Right, I think most people know that Fred has great qualities as a player and can most definitely significantly contribute to winning basketball. The concern is about the role he's being asked to play as a lead ball handler and decision maker.

[Bruin]

Hes def not a PG but a still damn good player. Hope people don't get the two things confused.

Yeah I’m definitely not denying he’s a good player, cause he is good

The issue I have is his game and the way he runs the offense. Some Fred fans seem to think my issue with him is only cause of Barnes, but that’s not it. The offense stagnates and stops moving when he has the ball. It happens too often where other players are starting to move the ball and we string a couple good passes together and then it gets to Fred and it just stops. He starts dribbling out the clock to heave up a difficult shot. He makes things too difficult on the offensive end for himself and as a result he makes the offense of the entire team suffer

I didn’t like how Fred ran the offense last year and prior too. He’s not a real PG. the issue is just a lot more highlighted now that we don’t have Lowry to help with that

[Johnny Bball]

Just try not to call each other idiots, morons, clowns or goofs. This can be discussed in a civil fashion.

To answer the question, is he a true point guard? He's certainly had games this season where he's looked like one. But for the most part he's played like a two guard. It may take some time for him to fully adjust his mind set, from that of a shooter to that of a facilitator.

You have to be kidding me.

[goinrogue]

It’s so obvious that Fred isn’t a natural point guard. I don’t really understand why they’re not seeing this. We would already be way better off Letting Scottie and Delano run the offense. Sure they would make mistakes but who cares we’re not trying to win a championship this year. If Fred can’t accept being off ball again
just trade him.

[Tha Cynic]

It's an irrelevant distinction. "True" PGs is a misnomer because being a scoring threat is how you generate advantage that becomes easy scoring opportunities for teammates.

Dame/Steph/Luka/Trae/Ja/Shai etc are all elite scoring the ball - the focus they demand is what makes it easy for them to exploit the defense to create opportunities for teammates.

FVV, like SIakam, are both miscast a slot above where they should be as scoring options. They would both look so much better with a legit #1. Fact is we don't have one and we're forced to make do. Sometimes they look good and sometimes they look bad. That's why they aren't elite players and why we're a mid-level team.

Until Barnes is ready (and he's absolutely not ready) to take on more primary usage, FVV has to shoulder more burden than he's capable of. That doesn't take away from all the great things he does for this team. He's doing an admirable job given the tough situation he's in.

You just said that FVV and Siakam are miscast (which I agree) and then you also said FVV needs to shoulder the burden. The issue is he doesn't have a natural feel for the game to take on that responsibility. The other issue is that I get the sense FVV does not want to give up that responsibility and you can see it on the court at times. He wants to control the play as much as possible.

The solution is to either find someone else to handle the playmaking or change the offense and make it more structured.

The way they are currently playing is not good team basketball. The team is playing offense like a collection of hired assassins.

[Indeed]

He’s a SG being forced to play PG and run the offence with lacklustre playmaking abilities.

Nurse seriously needs to try:
Barnes/FVV/OG/Siakam/Birch

With Trent being our 6th man

I would argue that Nurse doesn't need to initiate with Flex offense.
We might need to pass the ball around, and we already got mis-match everywhere.

I think we can simply have Barnes plays the point at the top, and Siakam-VanVleet on one side, while Birch picking out Trent/OG on the other side.

[Tha Cynic]

Hes def not a PG but a still damn good player. Hope people don't get the two things confused.

FVV's biggest issue is his personality imo. He has a very big ego and that gets in the way of his game. He can be very good when he just goes out there and plays simple basketball and puts all those thoughts out of his head. But, he has a streak in him that makes him always want more for himself.

[DelAbbot]

Hes def not a PG but a still damn good player. Hope people don't get the two things confused.

FVV's biggest issue is his personality imo. He has a very big ego and that gets in the way of his game. He can be very good when he just goes out there and plays simple basketball and puts all those thoughts out of his head. But, he has a streak in him that makes him always want more for himself.

it's not so much an ego issue - rather he has a chip-on-his-shoulder issue. He always wants to prove that despite his limited height and arm length, he can finish at the rim - he keeps attempting layups with big defenders on him - and predictably missing. He does this over and over again, believing he will get better.

He even admits it himself

Watch on YouTube

I call this a variation of the Napoleon Complex

[JN]

Probably not. What makes it extra difficult for FVV is the lack of attention he gets when he drives + the lack of three point shooters on the floor at times to create workable passing lanes.

As much as people want to haggle on the weaknesses and limitations of FVV + Siakam, we are still 8th in the league in offensive rating (may have fell a few spots after tonight). So there are many other teams that have issues with their offence and point guard play as well.

Offence is easier for us to criticize as viewers because it is more easy to see the failures. I am more worried about our craptastic defence despite supposedly having many great pieces.

[_MidNight_]

He's not.

I'd like to think Kyle would've seen Scottie as a very easy assist if they played the pick and roll, Fred gives zero F's about the rook.

It's up to him up get people going. Stop dribbling the air out of the ball. Stick to your strengths, catch and shoot, make quicker decisions. Stop this iso madness, give guys on the court better directions.

I'm frustrated with our offensive game right now, he's the person with the ball most of the time and the one with the ability to settle things down.

Man do I miss Kyle, he made things look so easy.

[KL78192020]

Hes def not a PG but a still damn good player. Hope people don't get the two things confused.

FVV's biggest issue is his personality imo. He has a very big ego and that gets in the way of his game. He can be very good when he just goes out there and plays simple basketball and puts all those thoughts out of his head. But, he has a streak in him that makes him always want more for himself.

Yup. On the championship team he was the 4/5th option and thats what he should be.

[pingpongrac]

Hes def not a PG but a still damn good player. Hope people don't get the two things confused.

FVV's biggest issue is his personality imo. He has a very big ego and that gets in the way of his game. He can be very good when he just goes out there and plays simple basketball and puts all those thoughts out of his head. But, he has a streak in him that makes him always want more for himself.

Yup. On the championship team he was the 4/5th option and thats what he should be.

FVV was 25 in the Championship season and playing alongside one of the best players in the league, two likely 1st ballot HOFers and a blossoming star in Siakam. He has made significant improvements to his game since the 18/19 season and he shouldn't be relegated to 5th option/bench player like some people on here think. He also shouldn't be the 1st option either.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using RealGM mobile app

[sidsid]

It’s so obvious that Fred isn’t a natural point guard. I don’t really understand why they’re not seeing this. We would already be way better off Letting Scottie and Delano run the offense. Sure they would make mistakes but who cares we’re not trying to win a championship this year. If Fred can’t accept being off ball again
just trade him.

This is fundamentally a Nurse problem.

The refrain here is that "Fred has to take on the responsibility" because the team is too young or not enough talent or whatever.

That's not true (the take on part). If Phil Jackson was coaching this team we'd be playing the triangle offense which doesn't put anywhere near the responsibilities on the PG that we have now. There's just a ton of ways to organize a team that doesn't rely on your shortest player having the ball in their hands all game.

Anyway, it's not likely to change this year, but we'll know next year if Nurse fundamentally doesn't understand Fred's limitations. At that point it's the decision between firing Nurse or trading Fred. And you should just trade Fred because you're going to need the cap space anyway if it comes to it.

[Jenga_tDot]

He's a 2 guard

[sidsid]

FVV's biggest issue is his personality imo. He has a very big ego and that gets in the way of his game. He can be very good when he just goes out there and plays simple basketball and puts all those thoughts out of his head. But, he has a streak in him that makes him always want more for himself.

Yup. On the championship team he was the 4/5th option and thats what he should be.

FVV was 25 in the Championship season and playing alongside one of the best players in the league, two likely 1st ballot HOFers and a blossoming star in Siakam. He has made significant improvements to his game since the 18/19 season and he shouldn't be relegated to 5th option/bench player like some people on here think. He also shouldn't be the 1st option either.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using RealGM mobile app

Players make strides, but their roles don't necessarily change even with improvement. If you're trying to picture where players fit in a contender context, both Siakam and Fred now are likely better versions of their roles (OG's has fundamentally changed his with his improvement). Siakam would be more consistently dangerous, and Fred would be that 4th guy on the floor who isn't as hard matchup prone as he used to be. Mainly because he's gotten that veteran ability to generate a 3 for himself more consistently.

Conflating what they do in the regular season with what they can effectively do in the playoffs is also the problem. Basically everything Fred does in the paint doesn't work for him in the playoffs against contender defenses and size (even the Cavs were able to eliminate his drive and kick game). Even that effectiveness is iffy in the regular season considering how bad of a half-court team we are.

So, the question then is "so we're not a contender, why play Fred as if we were?"

The answer here to me, is that you don't want to rely on fools gold, unless it helps development. And rock pounding Fred does not fit into "helping".

He's much better as a guy who runs around off-ball using his gravity to generate space for his teammates and bailing out the young guys on secondary action when needed.

Siakam plays the Siakam role, Barnes plays a bit of a mix of Gasol and Lowry's role, and OG fits the Kawhi role (obviously in play style, not impact). And Fred plays a better version of his old role. No, we're not a contender, but it's the best use of his skills without leaning into his limitations, and we get the bonus of it fitting really well in helping development.