Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better?

[ArthurVandelay]

Next year is going to be awesome

[Duffman100]

He is miscast right now - his best role was when he was the 4th/5th option on offense like he was when Nurse was still here.

Next year with Brandon Ingram and Quickley healthy and playing he will slot back more naturally into his correct role.

Turns out, Nurse and co were right about him. Hell of a player, just not in a flashy or typical way.

Basically this. Players weren't blocking him but rather he played better with them on the court and numbers supported this. I wouldn't say 4th or 5th, but I see him as 3rd

I thought he had superstar potential and it looks like it just won't quite hit that.

If that's the case, should we keep RJ assuming Ingram is our number 1 option?

Honestly I don't know.

On one hand, RJ is the only player on the team that puts pressure on the rim.

On the other hand, the starting lineup could use an off ball defensive player like Ochai to balance it out.

[XTC]

Ah, here we go, the Scottie slander thread. It was inevitable with zero patience fans who love to tear players down and require instant gratification, 'what have you done for me lately? wah!'

Scottie has been playing with a hand contusion and bum ankle and has never been asked nor played like this prior in his life, being the #1 main guy. This is all new for Scottie. But this is also old news: we learned this when we drafted him; that he needed to develop a jump shot, mid-range game and three point shot. The fact that his mid-range has come this far so soon is really impressive.

Regardless, he really has to work his ass off this summer (improve the footwork, develop more of a bag and continue improving that handle).

However, this was the point of this season: to experiment, play outside of their comfort zones and develop, while racking up the Ls.

Nonetheless, this kind of nuance is often just tossed aside and not considered, ie "excuses! wah!" and sports fans in general tend to be overly reactionary and negative to such an extent that they end up digging their own hole:

Is Shai a little overrated?
He’s the primary option, and still doesn’t seem to have made any improvements in his game and is still pretty passive. I think everyone just needs to be realistic about him. At best, he’s a third option on a championship team. But I don’t think you build the whole enchilada around him when Baze and Dort are outplaying him most nights.

I realize that’s going to be unpopular, but I think it’s gotta become a realization. He’s a good player, but not this franchise-altering guy

I think we can all agree we shouldnt be planning on him being the primary option in the future but he will be a big piece for us and could possibly be a second option. He can come off as a little overrated i guess cause hes our best player and we stan him so much.

Yeah I’m not saying he isn’t part of the puzzle, but people don’t need to act like he’s going to be the savior. He’s not. He’s a secondary option to whoever we draft

He's currently and 18/6 type of guy. We need him to be a 24/8 type guy. Sometimes I feel he's on track and sometimes I feel he's not going to be that guy. Hard to get a read. Fringe All star potential I think. I don't think he'll be superstar level.

That being said, he's not a KD, Harden, Luka type scorer, and probably never will be. The player that I think of most when I watch Shai is Ginobili. Crafty, below the rim playmaker with good court awareness. Capable on a given night of being the best player on the floor. That's probably his ceiling. And if it is (and if he gets there) holy ****, that's incredible. That's a huge piece in building a contending team.

The truth is that even if we hit big on the next couple drafts we're probably still going to be 2-4 years from being a contender.

I like Shai but I still believe Bazley is the player with the most potential. The offense needs to flow through him a little more.Bazley kept us in the game today until later in the 3rd and 4th quarter. The team is still figuring out the dynamics of the offense but Bazley needs to at least be the 2nd option.

link

Anyone saying something negaive about Scottie is not "Scottie slander". Slander is telling falsehoods. What we are saying about Scottie is just true.

Also, SGA is the outlier. And for what its worth, SGA at the same age was already significantly better offensively than Scottie is right now. In year 3 as a 21 year old he put up 24/5/6 on 62.3TS%. His worst season on his rookie deal efficiency wise was a 55.4TS% which is within 1% of Scotties best.

Quoting stupid people doesn't prove your point. No one in their right mind thought Darius Bazely was a better prospect than SGA. People just love role players, but the funny thing is in this situation Scottie is the role player. He is the defense first guy who can chip in offensively, but there is NOTHING to suggest he is going to be an elite offensive player.

Almost all those posts anyways are right. Most guys are 2nd options on championship teams. Breaking through to MVP caliber is almost impossible, and that is true for 21 year old SGA and 23 year old Barnes.

Hype up Scotties mid range shot all you want. He is shooting 49% from 10-16 feet and 35 from the long 2. That is not an impressive feat by any means, and is still an inefficient shot.

EDIT: I finally clicked the reddit link. Your big "AHA" is a post with 0 upvotes and 23 total comments on a platform like reddit? come on man

Scotties midrange game

4 feet to 9 feet - 42.8%

10 feet to 15 feet - 48.8%

16 feet to 3 point line - 37.3%

Is that honestly supposed to be elite? If Scottie never attempted a single three this season, his TS would still only be 56.6%... which is still below league average (57.5%)... if Scottie's midrange was so elite he would be damn near league average efficency. Facts are for Scottie to even get to league average efficiency with his midrange game, with his lack of ability to draw fouls, he would have to shoot 40.5% from three (he currently shoots 26.3%) to get to an exact TS of 57.5%

[REJECTEDBYCLARK]

Barnes with lower USG kinda needs his defense to get a lot better to be worth the money he is making.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

This is the guy we changed the face of the franchise for. Whether TWO or team compete, everyone wanted him to be "the guy".

It was pretty clear we could have had Durant for him in 2022!

We would most likely have a starting five of FVV, OG, Pascal, Durant and Poeltl for a few years. We would have a championship by now......

Scottie was the one that didn't fit, yet we changed the team around him.

I really hope that the player we draft this year will either fit in to the current team, or be good enough to change the team for.

[canada_dry]

Yeah the #1 option stuff isn't working. Lets see how he looks playing behind a better offensive option next year.

The day he was drafted my comp for him was bigger stronger iguodala. I'd be happy with that outcome.

Something like 21-22 ppg on average efficiency, elite defense, good rebounding, and good playmaking for his position would be really good. Theres still hope for a player like that.

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[djsunyc]

This is the guy we changed the face of the franchise for. Whether TWO or team compete, everyone wanted him to be "the guy".

It was pretty clear we could have had Durant for him in 2022!

We would most likely have a starting five of FVV, OG, Pascal, Durant and Poeltl for a few years. We would have a championship by now......

Scottie was the one that didn't fit, yet we changed the team around him.

I really hope that the player we draft this year will either fit in to the current team, or be good enough to change the team for.

that rumor was pre-yak

[tecumseh18]

Settle down, now. Scottie is obviously playing hurt, and has been most of the season. He's only playing for contract reasons. Raps aren't fighting it because he's not helping us win most nights.

[canada_dry]

The pecking order getting their flowers postpartum wasnt on my bingo card lol.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[PushDaRock]

Ah, here we go, the Scottie slander thread. It was inevitable with zero patience fans who love to tear players down and require instant gratification, 'what have you done for me lately? wah!'

Scottie has been playing with a hand contusion and bum ankle and has never been asked nor played like this prior in his life, being the #1 main guy. This is all new for Scottie. But this is also old news: we learned this when we drafted him; that he needed to develop a jump shot, mid-range game and three point shot. The fact that his mid-range has come this far so soon is really impressive.

Regardless, he really has to work his ass off this summer (improve the footwork, develop more of a bag and continue improving that handle).

However, this was the point of this season: to experiment, play outside of their comfort zones and develop, while racking up the Ls.

Nonetheless, this kind of nuance is often just tossed aside and not considered, ie "excuses! wah!" and sports fans in general tend to be overly reactionary and negative to such an extent that they end up digging their own hole:












link

Anyone saying something negaive about Scottie is not "Scottie slander". Slander is telling falsehoods. What we are saying about Scottie is just true.

Also, SGA is the outlier. And for what its worth, SGA at the same age was already significantly better offensively than Scottie is right now. In year 3 as a 21 year old he put up 24/5/6 on 62.3TS%. His worst season on his rookie deal efficiency wise was a 55.4TS% which is within 1% of Scotties best.

Quoting stupid people doesn't prove your point. No one in their right mind thought Darius Bazely was a better prospect than SGA. People just love role players, but the funny thing is in this situation Scottie is the role player. He is the defense first guy who can chip in offensively, but there is NOTHING to suggest he is going to be an elite offensive player.

Almost all those posts anyways are right. Most guys are 2nd options on championship teams. Breaking through to MVP caliber is almost impossible, and that is true for 21 year old SGA and 23 year old Barnes.

Hype up Scotties mid range shot all you want. He is shooting 49% from 10-16 feet and 35 from the long 2. That is not an impressive feat by any means, and is still an inefficient shot.

EDIT: I finally clicked the reddit link. Your big "AHA" is a post with 0 upvotes and 23 total comments on a platform like reddit? come on man

Scotties midrange game

4 feet to 9 feet - 42.8%

10 feet to 15 feet - 48.8%

16 feet to 3 point line - 37.3%

Is that honestly supposed to be elite? If Scottie never attempted single three this season, his TS would still only be 56.6%... which is still below league average (57.5%)... if Scottie's midrange was so elite he would be damn near league average efficency, but facts are for Scottie to even get to league average efficiency with his midrange game, lack of ability to draw fouls, he would have to shoot 40.5% (he currently shoots 26.3%) to get to an exact TS of 57.5%

I don't think people understand how bad 52.3 TS% is and how far away he is from even mediocre, possessions are being punted when he tries to score. Even if we take his biggest "strength" which is 10-15ft, you still can't build your offensive game around a 48.8 TS% shot. He needs to be elite somewhere else to make up for taking those kinds of shots.

[deck]

His defense has been really good this year, you can see the progression on that side. Offense is definitely a concern.

I'm sure most would agree now that Barnes running the offense from the PG position is a very bad idea.

I'll reserve judgement until we see this team play healthy next year. The last two years has been a lot of change.

[PushDaRock]

Barnes with lower USG kinda needs his defense to get a lot better to be worth the money he is making.

If everything breaks right in this scenario where the lower USG leads to above average efficiency and the D gets to All-NBA level, you're probably looking at a prime Ben Simmons type impact player. But, I think a lot would have to go right for that to happen and I wouldn't bet on it certainly.

[XTC]

Anyone saying something negaive about Scottie is not "Scottie slander". Slander is telling falsehoods. What we are saying about Scottie is just true.

Also, SGA is the outlier. And for what its worth, SGA at the same age was already significantly better offensively than Scottie is right now. In year 3 as a 21 year old he put up 24/5/6 on 62.3TS%. His worst season on his rookie deal efficiency wise was a 55.4TS% which is within 1% of Scotties best.

Quoting stupid people doesn't prove your point. No one in their right mind thought Darius Bazely was a better prospect than SGA. People just love role players, but the funny thing is in this situation Scottie is the role player. He is the defense first guy who can chip in offensively, but there is NOTHING to suggest he is going to be an elite offensive player.

Almost all those posts anyways are right. Most guys are 2nd options on championship teams. Breaking through to MVP caliber is almost impossible, and that is true for 21 year old SGA and 23 year old Barnes.

Hype up Scotties mid range shot all you want. He is shooting 49% from 10-16 feet and 35 from the long 2. That is not an impressive feat by any means, and is still an inefficient shot.

EDIT: I finally clicked the reddit link. Your big "AHA" is a post with 0 upvotes and 23 total comments on a platform like reddit? come on man

Scotties midrange game

4 feet to 9 feet - 42.8%

10 feet to 15 feet - 48.8%

16 feet to 3 point line - 37.3%

Is that honestly supposed to be elite? If Scottie never attempted single three this season, his TS would still only be 56.6%... which is still below league average (57.5%)... if Scottie's midrange was so elite he would be damn near league average efficency, but facts are for Scottie to even get to league average efficiency with his midrange game, lack of ability to draw fouls, he would have to shoot 40.5% (he currently shoots 26.3%) to get to an exact TS of 57.5%

I don't think people understand how bad 52.3 TS% is and how far away he is from even mediocre, possessions are being punted when he tries to score. Even if we take his biggest "strength" which is 10-15ft, you still can't build your offensive game around a 48.8 TS% shot. He needs to be elite somewhere else to make up for taking those kinds of shots.

Fact is our offense has an ORTG of 110.3 when Scottie is on the court and an ORTG of 112.2 when he sits. It's crazy our offense actually get worst when Scottie is playing.

For reference

IQ
On - 112.3
Off - 110.8

RJ
On - 112.8
Off - 109.2

Yak
On - 112.9
Off - 109.5

[canada_dry]

Is there even anyone left on this forum who thinks he's being held back or something? We know more or less what he is offensively now. His game can still be polished but he's not your go-to guy.

Yes. Theres one guy. Has all numbers as his username. Its always dark forces at hand holding scottie back according to him.

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[kalel123]

This is the guy we changed the face of the franchise for. Whether TWO or team compete, everyone wanted him to be "the guy".

It was pretty clear we could have had Durant for him in 2022!

We would most likely have a starting five of FVV, OG, Pascal, Durant and Poeltl for a few years. We would have a championship by now......

Scottie was the one that didn't fit, yet we changed the team around him.

I really hope that the player we draft this year will either fit in to the current team, or be good enough to change the team for.

Durant is more like a high-priced mercenary than a guy that can uplift. Failed everywhere except at Warriors where decks were stacked to the max. This team would've been no exception and wouldn't have been sustainable otherwise after the year.

[raptor jesus]

Scottie's hard-wired to be a role player. He averaged 12 ppg his senior year of HS and 10 ppg in college. Trying to turn him into a go-to scorer for the first time in his life, at the highest level of basketball, was a tall task.

[PushDaRock]

Scotties midrange game

4 feet to 9 feet - 42.8%

10 feet to 15 feet - 48.8%

16 feet to 3 point line - 37.3%

Is that honestly supposed to be elite? If Scottie never attempted single three this season, his TS would still only be 56.6%... which is still below league average (57.5%)... if Scottie's midrange was so elite he would be damn near league average efficency, but facts are for Scottie to even get to league average efficiency with his midrange game, lack of ability to draw fouls, he would have to shoot 40.5% (he currently shoots 26.3%) to get to an exact TS of 57.5%

I don't think people understand how bad 52.3 TS% is and how far away he is from even mediocre, possessions are being punted when he tries to score. Even if we take his biggest "strength" which is 10-15ft, you still can't build your offensive game around a 48.8 TS% shot. He needs to be elite somewhere else to make up for taking those kinds of shots.

Fact is our offense has an ORTG of 110.3 when Scottie is on the court and an ORTG of 112.2 when he sits. It's crazy our offense actually get worst when Scottie is playing.

For reference

IQ
On - 112.3
Off - 110.8

RJ
On - 112.8
Off - 109.2

Yak
On - 112.9
Off - 109.5

There's no sugar coating that his offensive outlook looks bleak. There's no stat out there that supports something we might be missing that he could potentially unlock. For him to get to league average efficiency, it's likely he needs to be a guy that only scores when he hunts down mismatches in the post, hangs around the dunker spot for easier finishes and has a shot diet where his FTA to FGA ratio is really high, so basically very low usage and extremely good shot selection.

[Boogie!]

The pecking order getting their flowers postpartum wasnt on my bingo card lol.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

I keep saying this, and it’s funny how somehow according to some people I’m the biggest Barnes hater, but I was actually a huge fan of Barnes during his rookie and then sophomore season. I actually wanted him to have a bigger role and wanted to give him a chance to run the offense and play as a bigger pg.

The thing is I’m also a realist and watch the game objectively. I knew things started to get out of hand when people were saying Barnes had more of a bag than siakam and that he was a better offensive player. See, I believed in Barnes’ potential but objectively I saw the limitations in his game… that being said, his improvement from 3 was something to build on.

This season has objectively been horrible for his development and it’s crazy how all his fanboys have been rationalizing it. If this board was being objective, they would collectively agree that he’s gotten worse and this is not what was expected for his development. This is definitely a problem and is not worthy of the max he just got. There’s no way in hell that when he signed the contract or when everyone was hyping him up for a bigger role and the franchise piece that they were expecting this. And being willfully ignorant to Barnes **** season and development, and brushin it off as insignificant in a tanking year to me signifies a horrible lack of basketball knowledge and and:or an obvious bias which makes these opinions lack any credibility.

Even in the **** years with Chris bosh, his individual numbers were always good, even as a first option around scrub players and there was never the need to excuse him for being the only player being scouted and double teamed. Barnes has objectively regressed and this is something that needs to be considered with regards to his future with the team. Like someone else mentioned if he’s not gonna get better offensively then he better be kawhi/draymond level defensively to make up for it. But this current iteration is not deserving of max franchise status, point blank period.

[kalel123]

Certainly disappointing year for Scottie Barnes personally. But after s#!tstorm that was first half and the current tanking job, this year's kinda write-off for me. Also feel like he's hellbent on playing 65+ games so focus's been more on quantity rather than quality. So not quite sure how to take in this year's individual performance.

[PushDaRock]

This is the guy we changed the face of the franchise for. Whether TWO or team compete, everyone wanted him to be "the guy".

It was pretty clear we could have had Durant for him in 2022!

We would most likely have a starting five of FVV, OG, Pascal, Durant and Poeltl for a few years. We would have a championship by now......

Scottie was the one that didn't fit, yet we changed the team around him.

I really hope that the player we draft this year will either fit in to the current team, or be good enough to change the team for.

tWo was saying we needed to tank so we could get another Scottie level talent to pair with him in order to contend, it's not looking like that would be good enough anyways.