Decision making during our "rebuild" has been shockingly terrible. Review of timeline + path forward

[Indeed]

Said it many times, our problem is Barnes, he does not worth his contract. Lack of skill and shooting, yet, hardly improved.

"Hardly improved?"

He's having the best season of his career at the line and from 3... and inside the arc. All at once.

You bang this gong a lot, but it really doesn't sound out that well.

His best 3 point shooting season was his 3rd year with higher volume. Both are being the 3rd option in order to be average.

As for inside scoring, it doesnt mean he improved his skill, it is more a system design to use his strength, and the result is mixed.

Unless you can explicitly explain what skill set and role he improved, otherwise, he is just the same, didnt take a leap like Jalen Johnson or others who can fill a bigger role

[Tripod]

Said it many times, our problem is Barnes, he does not worth his contract. Lack of skill and shooting, yet, hardly improved.

"Hardly improved?"

He's having the best season of his career at the line and from 3... and inside the arc. All at once.

You bang this gong a lot, but it really doesn't sound out that well.

Barnes haters & Fred lovers love to sit and can't wait to pounce when there is an opportunity.

Reality is, Barnes won ROTY, leveled out season 2, was an All-Star year 3, leveled out year 4, and has been better this year.

It's only since the RJ injury where the team started its slide. YAK has been hit and miss all.season but when he was healthy, along with RJ, then guys could.just play THEIR GAMES. When healthy, we are a solid team.

With Yak out, defense has been compromised and who do we have to step up? No one. Mamu has been great for offense but we also know he isn't protecting the paint. Team that blow by our guards, don't have to worry anymore. And on offense, who do we have that does what RJ does that can step up? Again no one. Hell Yak on offense to get some easy put backs or catch the Barnes hard passes for an easy buckets? No one.

We all knew this was a flawed roster because it's just a collection of "guys" and we had no reliable scoring off the bench. Mamu HAS stepped up there but Shead has crashed after a good start...again, no real C hurts him too. Walter and Gradey took step back years. Mogbo...lol. CMB has been very up and down.

I said it before, we lack vet MEN off the bench. Most of our guys are young, weak, undersized, inexperienced, etc... Some of that comes with a roster with only 2 guys over 26.

We "should" all know, this isn't the roster going forward. No one is untouchable. We ARE going to be trying a consolidation trade.

It's 100% painful at times to wait and watch flaws so glaring. But the "hope" was a healthy team along with some development from the youth, could increase not only the win total, but players values for future trades. And WHEN HEALTHY(the team), Barnes was looking like an All Star as was BI. RJ was RJ. Shead was looking fantastic, etc...

There WILL be no big tear down like TWO wants. Hell they still have better records than teams with Supermax guys on their rosters, team that traded 4 1sts this summer, team with highest cap hit in league, etc...

Have they looked ugly lately, yes. Will Mgt look and say that ugly play has coincided with injuries to starters, yes. Would they have taken 4th in conference after X-Mas, 100% yes. And will they look to improve, yes.

[Indeed]

For me, things started falling apart in Scotties rookie year. When he was acting like an immature brat & wouldn't man up & accept leadership from the vets. Then the franchise sided with Scottie & started coddling him & turned their back on the vets that helped win us a ship.

That was a culture killer. The team has been striggling to gain traction since that time.

They needed to find a better way to transition. I felt like this was Fred and Pascal's team & it needed to stay that way for a while. Maybe you trade OG still.

I mean, this would have looked pretty good:

Vanvleet/ Quick
RJ
Scottie
Pascal
Poeltl (or bettee yet, a Myles Turner type)

Better defense & we have a legit scoring threat off the bench.

I think that team looks more solid than the one we have now.

It feels Webster wants to clean house of Ujiri, willing to over pay for Trent and Quickley, but not willing to pay for Powell and Siakam. Even drafting Flynn, Dick those are less of Ujiri type, while Walter and CMB are more Ujiri type once things started falling apart.

I dont know if we can go back, but it is more important to understand who are making the impact, rather than claiming our only rim pressure player should come off the bench at the start of the season, until injury proved it otherwise. Credit where credit's due, not hype.

[tsherkin]

Barnes haters & Fred lovers love to sit and can't wait to pounce when there is an opportunity.

I can appreciate skepticism and hesitation. I am myself far from Barnes' biggest fan in terms of ROI on that draft pick. Hindsight's 20/20 and all that, and we're finding ways to make him work for us. I think the biggest complaint is simply that he isn't a superstar. But we've been asking him to be something he's not the entire time he's been on the team, diametrically opposite what his scouting reports all said, and given that, he's actually done pretty well.

And yeah, he needs some structure and a certain role in which to thrive, like basically all non-superstars. And people struggle to appreciate players who aren't dominant scoring forces, so it's hard for a lot of people to get that wrapped around their minds, that he's still a plus-EV type of guy.

It's not Barnes' fault we have no frontcourt depth, or that RJ's out, or that BI has been dropping off sharply while we over-isolate him, or that we have no bench production of merit (especially with how Darko is approaching CMB), etc, etc.

We "should" all know, this isn't the roster going forward. No one is untouchable. We ARE going to be trying a consolidation trade.

If only for tax purposes, for sure. And hopefully to improve the team.

It's 100% painful at times to wait and watch flaws so glaring. But the "hope" was a healthy team along with some development from the youth, could increase not only the win total, but players values for future trades. And WHEN HEALTHY(the team), Barnes was looking like an All Star as was BI. RJ was RJ. Shead was looking fantastic, etc...

Yeah, when the team was actually on the floor, it was looking just fine. Not dominant, but not bad for the first year after a tanking season. Not bad at all.

We've been struggling, but we have critical pieces missing, so evaluation of the team while we're riddled with injuries and the like must always have some degree of patience as a filter. And, of course, understanding of how the team works. We KNOW Barnes isn't suddenly going to become an efficient 25 ppg guy, so pissing and moaning that he isn't every time we find ourselves in a struggling situation is just wasted energy, for sure.

[Indeed]

Said it many times, our problem is Barnes, he does not worth his contract. Lack of skill and shooting, yet, hardly improved.

How we build around him? Trade for 1st and 2nd options, trade for rim protector and lock down defender, and what else he needs to do? High level energy glue guy should not pay near-max.

Barnes isnt the problem but he might be overpaid yet hes still a great 3rd option on a championship team, similar to like Jalen Williams on OKC. Once RJ comes back and he slots back in as the 3rd option he should excel in that role.

Problem is the 5 spot has been killing us this year , the team hasnt made up for the RJ's scoring (Dick and Walter) and IQ is a 6th man at best.

Sure, you can compare to Horford.
High end glue guy, but your near-max are usually paid to your 1st and 2nd option, then round out with quality starters.
When your high end glue guy is paid near max, you won't have a good 5 spot nor borderline 2nd option. If you can only see the symptom instead of the root, then you will only point out the symptoms. Your min salary or rookie are not going to play a big role, look at every other team, tell me who are not paid more than the MLE can perform.

[Tripod]

Barnes haters & Fred lovers love to sit and can't wait to pounce when there is an opportunity.

I can appreciate skepticism and hesitation. I am myself far from Barnes' biggest fan in terms of ROI on that draft pick. Hindsight's 20/20 and all that, and we're finding ways to make him work for us. I think the biggest complaint is simply that he isn't a superstar. But we've been asking him to be something he's not the entire time he's been on the team, diametrically opposite what his scouting reports all said, and given that, he's actually done pretty well.

And yeah, he needs some structure and a certain role in which to thrive, like basically all non-superstars. And people struggle to appreciate players who aren't dominant scoring forces, so it's hard for a lot of people to get that wrapped around their minds, that he's still a plus-EV type of guy.

It's not Barnes' fault we have no frontcourt depth, or that RJ's out, or that BI has been dropping off sharply while we over-isolate him, or that we have no bench production of merit (especially with how Darko is approaching CMB), etc, etc.

We "should" all know, this isn't the roster going forward. No one is untouchable. We ARE going to be trying a consolidation trade.

If only for tax purposes, for sure. And hopefully to improve the team.

It's 100% painful at times to wait and watch flaws so glaring. But the "hope" was a healthy team along with some development from the youth, could increase not only the win total, but players values for future trades. And WHEN HEALTHY(the team), Barnes was looking like an All Star as was BI. RJ was RJ. Shead was looking fantastic, etc...

Yeah, when the team was actually on the floor, it was looking just fine. Not dominant, but not bad for the first year after a tanking season. Not bad at all.

We've been struggling, but we have critical pieces missing, so evaluation of the team while we're riddled with injuries and the like must always have some degree of patience as a filter. And, of course, understanding of how the team works. We KNOW Barnes isn't suddenly going to become an efficient 25 ppg guy, so pissing and moaning that he isn't every time we find ourselves in a struggling situation is just wasted energy, for sure.

Yup.

I just wish people would be honest. Yes Barnes has had bad games since RJ and Yak have been out/hurt. But he has also had very good games.

Hell, since RJ has been out(15 games) Barnes has averaged:

19.0, 8.2, 5.2, 1.0, 1.3, 57.7%TS-last 15 games
19.3, 8.0. 5.0, 1.6, 1.3, 58.2%TS-season

Almost exact same stats....especially with his 3pt shooting has been at 29.6% in those 15 games. He hasn't had that to boost his numbers like earlier in the season.

So same stats AND he is being asked to do more defensively with Yak out/hurt.

[Duffman100]

I was okay with everything until the Poeltl trade. That was clearly the Colangelo type move that we had seen before that reeked of desperation.

The draft misses are hurting us now. This team would be half decent if our bench guys could stick 3s.

[Saul Goodman]

It all comes down to winter 2023.



I get wanting to try to win with Barnes/Siakam/Fred/OG but that year was the clearest sign that it was over.


That Poetl trade was such a disasterously stupid move and it always will be. Sure the pick in the 2024 draft wasnt amazing but Zach Edey at 23 years old or Kelel Ware would look incredbile on this team.

Letting Fred Walk instead of flipping him for a late 1st and tanking

not cashing in on OG and siakam for like 3 or 4 1sts each was stupid. I am certain at 2023 when the league was as wide open as ever deadline they could have really hauled in alot



Im not saying they would have gotten Wemby, but what if they get 4th in that draft? Amen Thompson or Brandon Miller would look alot better than Gradey.




they could now be looking at a young core of


Amen/Scottie/Ware plus all the picks from the siakam and OG trades. Hell they could have still done the Ingram trade down the line and the resulting team would likely be as good or better today as the current team.

[Los_29]

These disingenuous posts always make me laugh.

At the time of the Poeltl trade we were 26-30 which was the 9th worst record in the league.

Cason Wallace was an elite prospect? He was rumoured to be a late lottery pick and he’s looked nowhere near an elite prospect in the NBA.

Franchise centers Ware or Edey?

These outrageous takes are just in the first few paragraphs.

[Basketball_Jones]

The Poeltl trade was a lot of Nick Nurse begging for a Center as well and Masai gave in. It was also kind of wanting to support his guys, who all ended up being traded or walking anyways. It had long term ramifications he didn’t consider, but I’m sure he had confidence he could dig himself out of it. And here we are. Whatever lightning in a bottle we had going earlier needs to be recaptured ASAP or we are really in no mans land barring a miracle move/draft pick.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

We should've been in a rebuild the day the 4th pick in the 2021 draft fall into our laps.... Since then I barely can enjoy or watch any raptors games/seasons to the fullest.

yup. extract fullest value from our vets.

[Tacoma]

Barnes haters & Fred lovers love to sit and can't wait to pounce when there is an opportunity.

I can appreciate skepticism and hesitation. I am myself far from Barnes' biggest fan in terms of ROI on that draft pick. Hindsight's 20/20 and all that, and we're finding ways to make him work for us. I think the biggest complaint is simply that he isn't a superstar. But we've been asking him to be something he's not the entire time he's been on the team, diametrically opposite what his scouting reports all said, and given that, he's actually done pretty well.

And yeah, he needs some structure and a certain role in which to thrive, like basically all non-superstars. And people struggle to appreciate players who aren't dominant scoring forces, so it's hard for a lot of people to get that wrapped around their minds, that he's still a plus-EV type of guy.

It's not Barnes' fault we have no frontcourt depth, or that RJ's out, or that BI has been dropping off sharply while we over-isolate him, or that we have no bench production of merit (especially with how Darko is approaching CMB), etc, etc.

We "should" all know, this isn't the roster going forward. No one is untouchable. We ARE going to be trying a consolidation trade.

If only for tax purposes, for sure. And hopefully to improve the team.

It's 100% painful at times to wait and watch flaws so glaring. But the "hope" was a healthy team along with some development from the youth, could increase not only the win total, but players values for future trades. And WHEN HEALTHY(the team), Barnes was looking like an All Star as was BI. RJ was RJ. Shead was looking fantastic, etc...

Yeah, when the team was actually on the floor, it was looking just fine. Not dominant, but not bad for the first year after a tanking season. Not bad at all.

We've been struggling, but we have critical pieces missing, so evaluation of the team while we're riddled with injuries and the like must always have some degree of patience as a filter. And, of course, understanding of how the team works. We KNOW Barnes isn't suddenly going to become an efficient 25 ppg guy, so pissing and moaning that he isn't every time we find ourselves in a struggling situation is just wasted energy, for sure.

Yup.

I just wish people would be honest. Yes Barnes has had bad games since RJ and Yak have been out/hurt. But he has also had very good games.

Hell, since RJ has been out(15 games) Barnes has averaged:

19.0, 8.2, 5.2, 1.0, 1.3, 57.7%TS-last 15 games
19.3, 8.0. 5.0, 1.6, 1.3, 58.2%TS-season

Almost exact same stats....especially with his 3pt shooting has been at 29.6% in those 15 games. He hasn't had that to boost his numbers like earlier in the season.

So same stats AND he is being asked to do more defensively with Yak out/hurt.

If Barnes is worth the max, he would be expected to step up when RJ went down but then he regressed. You’re not a max guy if your performance is dependent on other players taking pressure off of you. I’m sorry, but just too many excuses for Barnes.

Also, once again, people are saying that we will return into that 14-5 team to start the season when RJ returns from injury like he some kind of savior, will be in for disappointment. If RJ is that type of player, he’d still be in NY. We were bound to regress with or without RJ’s injury.

[DatHomieYouHaTe]

Since 2019 Bobby and Ujiri have been destroying any chance we have of being a good team. These two clowns couldn't even get us tanking right. They were too scared to blow it up after Kawhi left us in the summer of 2019. Bobby should be fired ASAP but it won't happen.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

Since 2019 Bobby and Ujiri have been destroying any chance we have of being a good team. These two clowns couldn't even get us tanking right. They were too scared to blow it up after Kawhi left us in the summer of 2019. Bobby should be fired ASAP but it won't happen.

Masai was fired this season and was fully in charge until he was let go. Bobby deserves a chance to turn this ship around since he was the guy who was credited with getting Kawhi as well.

now if ownership wanted the team to be competitive, that is of lesser fault to the front office and is more on point on what the FO was trying to do to this point. remember that ownership probably has to approve major trades/moves as well and if Masai was handcuffed in doing so, why pay him so much money that Bobby can at the fraction of the cost in turning this team around with the current personnel.

right now they sit above .500. and sit 4th in the standings lol. you guys can complain but right now but fans keep showing up to the gates and the Raptors don't totally suck.

[Raps in 4]

I understand the feeling that everything is disastrous when the raptors play poorly but a good lead guard can change a lot for this team.

You mention OG and Siakam playing well, look at what they've had in common. Two of the best point guards in the league. Siakam really isn't moving the needle without adept guard play as we've seen ourselves.

There moments too where I want to hurl dynamite at the squad but then I think of adding someone like Darius Garland. If we could swap IQ and Ochai for Garland, now we have a competitive squad.

Then you can either make a play for someone like Zubac or solidify the Center position with a quality big.

Where do you get a top-10 player like Brunson or Hali? This FO is too risk-averse to make the kinds of commitments the Knicks and Pacers made to get Brunson and Hali.

[Pointgod]

Bobby/Masai have made so many boneheaded moves post championship its almost like they lost passion after winning the title and losing Kawhi....I get it you just won a title and lost the player that got you there which would be demoralizing...

But so many mistakes that both deserve to be fired ....You can't fire Masai and hold onto Bobby thinking things will change ....Bobby might be more of the problem because maybe Masai let him make more decisions post title as well...

-Yak trade was a complete joke and set us up for failure...We tank proper that year we either win the lotto like the Spurs did and get Wemby or you have Miller or one of the Thompson twins.

-You don't miss out on the 2024 Draft and we get Edey or Ware like you mentioned....Horrible to miss out on two great young bigs.

-Trading for Thad young (a guy who brought nothing) giving up more draft capital and missing out on another C in Kessler.

-Tank right in 2025 depending on the outcomes of the two previous drafts and who we got....But at least come away with a higher ceiling talent than CMB....I like CMB but we needed a player with a higher ceiling in that draft period...

-We also missed out on that Pelicans trade when they called teams 9-13 offering their 2026 FRP for Queen....What an asset that would have been....Boneheaded move by our FO not accepting that offer ASAP when its offered to you...

-Trading for Ingram is also looking like a mistake because we gave up draft capital to get a player that locks us into team mid even more than what we were before....I love Ingram as a player and a talent but it was way too soon for us to aquire a player like him

-Handing out horrible contracts to players that are not worth the money.....So now if we want to trade these bad contracts we have to give up assets just to get off them...

-Trading all our guys for half the assets they should of gotten by holding them way too long....Losing FVV for nothing, Trading Powell for such a horrible package, Lowry got a crap return....So many blunders man its hard to defend it...

-Building your franchise around Barnes....Hes obviously one of our best players but after this many years with him as the "Guy" He has not done anything with us...He peaked his rookie year....Since then he has not developed into what we thought so a pivot should be made....Hes a 3rd option at best being treated like hes the man...

If you take the time and go through all these horrible blunders that set this franchise back so many years its laughable at how bad its been....We need a new vision and a new Front office....These guys running our team seem to be 10 steps behind every front office in the league and it shows on the court.

It’s like our front office saw the clear blue print to build a successful team and said “naw, we’ll do the opposite”. The Thad trade was the canary in the coal mine and the Poeltl trade just solidified that the front office had no direction. You’re almost always better off trading vets for draft capital and building through the draft while maintaining cap flexibility, than half measures and maxing out your cap on solid vets.

[Tor_Raps]

Ya I agree with most of whats being said. I was always on the "if you let Gasol/Ibaka go then you should have traded Lowry too." Jrue Holiday was traded for a haul that same offseason and im sure Lowry would have went for something less but similar. It was the start or the downfall of this organization.

I was seeing some good things again but the problem was that we needed to hit near 100% of of our picks because we just didnt have enough of them for a retooling team. Now that we see the massive flaws with our pick, we are back to being in the Chicago/Atlanta/Miami.

[Brinbe]

They've def had a lot of dumb decisions, no doubt. But they've also had some bad luck with some potentially interesting prospects/finds. (TD/Harris/Koloko/Porter/Chomche)

That being said, I don't thnk the sky is falling. This team was always gonna be a continued WIP and that remains to be true but they have tools to course correct.

[TimeForChange]

It all went downhill after the chip.

Masai got a little too big headed after winning the championship and being offered the Wizards president job.

We've had numerous reports from Woj/Shams/Haynes that Masai was very difficult to deal with. He overvalued his players and no one in the league wanted to trade with him.

Masai never wanted to rebuild. He tried building from the middle but the roster just wasn't good enough. A true rebuild after the Scottie draft is what should have happened.

Now he's left us with a mismatched starting lineup, poor bench and a terrible coaching staff.

I don't think Bobby will be able to move these contracts, so the Raptors are going to continue to be a treadmill team for the next few years.

[ItsDanger]

I have zero interest in investing much time for a mid tier team. I'd love nothing more than new management to come in and build through the draft.