Reasons to Keep Bargnani

[Reignman]

People dont care about how things work in the real world, they just want him out no matter what and dont care about the logistics or practicality of what they are spewing. Ya its easy to say get rid of him, but thats a move an idiot would make right now. Good thing BC isnt an idiot.

So you agree with Dacrusha that Bargs is pretty terrible? I mean, if you have to sweeten the deal just to get rid of him then that's what you're essentially saying.

Also, it seems you now admit that Bargs is also a bench player, is that right?

I'm pretty sure most people understand this about Bargs and nobody would suggest parting with a decent piece like Ed or our pick just to get rid of him. Most would be perfectly happy with Dacrusha's suggestion of benching him and building a team the right way regardless of Bargs.

Are you in agreement?

What I agree with is that we need better players than him in order to succeed, not giving away one of the best ones we currently have and DEFINITELY not sweetening the pot for someone else to take him off our hands like you seem to be advocating.

Some people have a one track mind, yours seems to be a nascar track. Keep making left turns you will get back to where you started.

Bargnani is who he is. He can be an important piece on a good team and for $8-10 million a year hes not a cap killer. Right now this team is devoid of talent and you want to jettison the most talented player we have.

Good idea. Then next year we can suck again and everyone can get on DeMars case and we can ship him out too. You sure you arent some professor or something? Insight like this is priceless, I should write this all down.

1) Get rid of players for nothing
2) Sign 5 Amir Johnsons, rebounding wins games
3) Championship.

First of all, I have never said I'd add sweetner to get rid of Bargs so please don't put words in my mouth. I've always said he's a bench player and that's where he belongs.

Now here's where you and I differ (amongst other things). I don't judge Bargs based on the rest of the roster, that's a very stupid way to look at things IMO. I base it on the league overall. By calling Bargs the "best" because of this current roster you've already missed the bus on improving the team. Being the best on a 20 win team doesn't do as much for me as it apparently does for you.
When I call Amir the best overall player on this team do you think I believe Amir is a great player in this league? I hope not.

You seem to lack the ability of critical thinking. The reason I love Amir is due to his performance at the position he plays. He rebounds, defends and scores on high % buckets at a bench players salary, that's what I like about him. Basically, he can play his position. Does that mean I want a team full of Amir's? Of course not.

With Demar, I've always said I'd give him his 3rd year and start really evaluating him in the first half of year 4. If he hasn't continued improving his D, hasn't added a 3 pt shot and his overall development flatlines like Bargnani then I'll treat him like a bench player too. It's that simple.

When I talk about building good teams with players that can play their position I definitely don't compare to this roster. I look at the teams that are actually winning and look at what we are missing. With Bargnani in the starting lineup we will always miss a solid interior defense and without that we'll never win. It's that simple for me and so I can't ever say Bargnani the best at anything because based on what's really needed to win, he's actually quite poor for his position.

[Scraptor]

DH, I think we should question this premise:

If Bargnani's giving you poor man's version of a star PF offensively

he's without question at bare minimum one of the top 60 offensive weapons in the entire NBA

The 45% FG percentage is abysmal from your four-spot. It's not even really improved by TS%

Scorers need to be compared with scorers though, Scraptor, and role players with other role players. This is why we have to look at minutes played, FGAs and usage when trying to accurately compare players. This is also why you can't go by league averages. Extremely low volume guys like Joel Anthony/Kendrick Perkins/Chris Anderson/Eric Dampier etc all hover around .600 so guys like that dramatically boost the league averages. It's not like you could expect those guys to carry an offence though which is why I think the earlier post on page 2 or 3 that I quoted from another poster talking about usage and minutes played seemed the most reflective. It had Bargnani as the 58th best TS% for players of similar usage which means in a 30 team league he's shaped up into a borderline 2nd option or a good third option on a good team someday. I don't want a borderline 2nd option as my 2nd option. I want a good 2nd option as my 2nd option but I'm okay with Bargnani taking on sort of a 3rd best player role.

According to Hollinger he's 51st in the NBA in value added and estimated wins added.
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinge ... rt%3dVORPe

Toolate commented on this a couple weeks ago but what's actually kind of funny is that Bosh was ranked 8th last year in estimated wins added last season with 17.1. If you actually added Bosh's 17.1 to the team this year we'd have 37 wins. As he jokingly wrote then... maybe there is something to the formula. AB's estimated wins added is only around 7 which isn't anywhere near franchise or secondary star territory but it's still solid and it should be valued because at the moment it's one of the best we've got rather than compared to Bosh's and mocked as a result of how much better Bosh was.

Ah sorry, I missed that 58th according to usage post. Unfortunately, wins added and value added are both derived from PER, which is mostly a picture of offensive ability, which is why you have Bargs ahead of Bogut.

The 82games.com stats are a better overall picture of a player, IMO. http://www.82games.com/1011/1011TOR.HTM These stats do a better question of answering whether offensive ability alone is a net positive to a team or not.

Anyways, the problem with using him as an offensive-only option is that there are corrosive effects. Laziness is contagious, as is hustle. Others may resent him getting so many touches when he doesn't play with effort on both sides of the floor, when he misses assignments, etc.

I have been a proponent of giving him time because we are somewhat handcuffed to his fate, because he might somehow develop the mental toughness to be consistent, and because it might increase his trade value. But we are now at or slightly past the point where he has reached maximum appreciation as an asset, imo. The only reason I say that is because there are always a few GMs who fall in love with scoring only who will use this season as evidence of his appreciating value.

[Reignman]

Cake Walk wrote:What I agree with is that we need better players than him in order to succeed, not giving away one of the best ones we currently have and DEFINITELY not sweetening the pot for someone else to take him off our hands like you seem to be advocating.

Some people have a one track mind, yours seems to be a nascar track. Keep making left turns you will get back to where you started.

Bargnani is who he is. He can be an important piece on a good team and for $8-10 million a year hes not a cap killer. Right now this team is devoid of talent and you want to jettison the most talented player we have.

Good idea. Then next year we can suck again and everyone can get on DeMars case and we can ship him out too. You sure you arent some professor or something? Insight like this is priceless, I should write this all down.

1) Get rid of players for nothing
2) Sign 5 Amir Johnsons, rebounding wins games
3) Championship.

Which current championship contending team would take Bargnani and give him 35 minutes a game at the 4 or 5? He is average to above average on offence and well below average at best on defence. No team can have a key piece admittedly be lazy and expect to have any kind of lasting success.

Orlando, San Antonio, Boston, Miami, OKC would all give him 28-30 minutes. Am I missing anyone? Thats pretty much all the contending teams except the Lakers. Playing him 35 minutes is too much even on this team but we have nobody else that can play minutes.

LOL, this ain't a video game, when taking on $10 mil in salary you have to give up something, what would those teams give up for the privelege of having Bargs?

TBH, you just pulled that list out of your ass is what it seems.

If we did things like that then you can make a case for every team in the league wanting Jose on their roster as well but we know from the trade deadline that that's not the case.

[s e n s i]

Orlando, San Antonio, Boston, Miami, OKC would all give him 28-30 minutes. Am I missing anyone? Thats pretty much all the contending teams except the Lakers. Playing him 35 minutes is too much even on this team but we have nobody else that can play minutes.

lol

what fantasy world are you living in? no way Bargs even sees the floor in San Antonio, Boston, or Chicago which you conveniently forgot...garbage time maybe. He might see the floor in Orlando, Miami, and OKC...perhaps 15-20 minutes tops, but there's a reason these teams are contenders aside from the fact they have multiple all-stars. None of these teams would give Bargs 30 minutes a game, which would obviously include a fair amount of touches, if it came at the expense of their all-stars receiving less touches...also I don't think either of those teams would be contenders with Bargnani logging 30 minutes a game hopelessly trying to defend the rim.

[sonn]

LOL, this ain't a video game, when taking on $10 mil in salary you have to give up something, what would those teams give up for the privelege of having Bargs?

TBH, you just pulled that list out of your ass is what it seems.

If we did things like that then you can make a case for every team in the league wanting Jose on their roster as well but we know from the trade deadline that that's not the case.

The only team I realistically using Bargnani is Orlando since he fits in with what they do and Howard can help erase his mistakes but not any of the other teams.

[Comeatme_Bro]

Lol on teams with establish scorers, no way Bargnani sees more than 20 minutes a game. When he's not scoring he is completely useless. Although he does stretch the floor, I'll give him that.

[Cake Walk]

Which current championship contending team would take Bargnani and give him 35 minutes a game at the 4 or 5? He is average to above average on offence and well below average at best on defence. No team can have a key piece admittedly be lazy and expect to have any kind of lasting success.

Orlando, San Antonio, Boston, Miami, OKC would all give him 28-30 minutes. Am I missing anyone? Thats pretty much all the contending teams except the Lakers. Playing him 35 minutes is too much even on this team but we have nobody else that can play minutes.

LOL, this ain't a video game, when taking on $10 mil in salary you have to give up something, what would those teams give up for the privelege of having Bargs?

TBH, you just pulled that list out of your ass is what it seems.

If we did things like that then you can make a case for every team in the league wanting Jose on their roster as well but we know from the trade deadline that that's not the case.

It was a hypothetical situation, or at least thats what I took it as. If Bargnani was on any of those teams he would be receiving 28-30 minutes a game. If we were a championship contender, then I assume he would be getting 28 minutes a game here as well. Not hard to understand, mr critical thinker.

Our goal is to build a championship team and he was asking which contenders would play bargnani meaningful minutes. That was my answer. And yes I pulled those teams out of my ass, how observant of you. As opposed to pulling them out of my nose, ear or magic lamp.

[Reignman]

Lol on teams with establish scorers, no way Bargnani sees more than 20 minutes a game. When he's not scoring he is completely useless. Although he does stretch the floor, I'll give him that.

There's a quite a few bigs out there that can spread the floor like Frye, Bonner, Andersen, etc that do it for quite a bit less. hell, some of those guys rebound and at least try to defend too.

[ItsDanger]

With a solid centre, Bargs would be an ideal complement at the 4 as a starter on many teams, this is obvious to all. Why do you think BC wanted Chandler? Even he knows that too. BC is just collecting assets for the right trade and would move anybody despite what people here think. This trio of Bargs/Amir/Ed will not last if we're serious about building a winner. Unless we get some decent coaching who could get Bargs properly trained as a centre, he needs to be a 4. Otherwise, he is trade bait.

[FSL43]

LOL, this ain't a video game, when taking on $10 mil in salary you have to give up something, what would those teams give up for the privelege of having Bargs?

TBH, you just pulled that list out of your ass is what it seems.

If we did things like that then you can make a case for every team in the league wanting Jose on their roster as well but we know from the trade deadline that that's not the case.

The only team I realistically using Bargnani is Orlando since he fits in with what they do and Howard can help erase his mistakes but not any of the other teams.

Orlando has Ryan Anderson. He can hit the 3, hustles, and plays defense. And at a cheaper rate too.

[Basketball_Jones]

They shoot better from out there as well. Bargs is more of a pump fake dribble drive big than a simple catch and shoot one. He's like a less efficient Bosh that sets up behind the 3 point line instead of on the wing. This is just offense I'm talking about.

[J-Roc]

Guys, this thread is supposed to be reasons to keep Bargnani.

1. He helps us tank.

2. His trade value is low.

3. Matchup nightmare.

4. He's only 25.

[Cake Walk]

Orlando, San Antonio, Boston, Miami, OKC would all give him 28-30 minutes. Am I missing anyone? Thats pretty much all the contending teams except the Lakers. Playing him 35 minutes is too much even on this team but we have nobody else that can play minutes.

lol

what fantasy world are you living in? no way Bargs even sees the floor in San Antonio, Boston, or Chicago which you conveniently forgot...garbage time maybe. He might see the floor in Orlando, Miami, and OKC...perhaps 15-20 minutes tops, but there's a reason these teams are contenders aside from the fact they have multiple all-stars. None of these teams would give Bargs 30 minutes a game, which would obviously include a fair amount of touches, if it came at the expense of their all-stars receiving less touches...also I don't think either of those teams would be contenders with Bargnani logging 30 minutes a game hopelessly trying to defend the rim.

I conveniently left out Chicago because he would not get minutes there. Bargnani being a 3rd of 4th option on those teams would suite them well. They are in need of stretch bigs and Bargnani would not be so exhausted doing everything on offense he can actually put some effort into defence.

I dont think anyone would receive less touches on the teams I mentioned because of Bargnani, because the offence would not be run through him he would be the recipient of passes.

[Reignman]

Orlando, San Antonio, Boston, Miami, OKC would all give him 28-30 minutes. Am I missing anyone? Thats pretty much all the contending teams except the Lakers. Playing him 35 minutes is too much even on this team but we have nobody else that can play minutes.

LOL, this ain't a video game, when taking on $10 mil in salary you have to give up something, what would those teams give up for the privelege of having Bargs?

TBH, you just pulled that list out of your ass is what it seems.

If we did things like that then you can make a case for every team in the league wanting Jose on their roster as well but we know from the trade deadline that that's not the case.

It was a hypothetical situation, or at least thats what I took it as. If Bargnani was on any of those teams he would be receiving 28-30 minutes a game. If we were a championship contender, then I assume he would be getting 28 minutes a game here as well. Not hard to understand, mr critical thinker.

Our goal is to build a championship team and he was asking which contenders would play bargnani meaningful minutes. That was my answer. And yes I pulled those teams out of my ass, how observant of you. As opposed to pulling them out of my nose, ear or magic lamp.

I guess you pulled the 28-30 mins out of your ass as well?

- Matt Bonner gets 21 mins in SA.
- Ryan Anderson is averaging less than 20 and has never averaged over 21
- Channing Frye last season got 27 mins

So here's the deal, stretch bigs typically don't get a lot of mins unless they bring other things to the table. Every player on that list is a better rebounder and defender than Bargs. Looking at that list the only player that has gotten a lot of mins recently is Channing Frye who is averaging 32 mins this season but that's on the Suns and defense isn't exactly their first concern. On top of that he's still a superior rebounder defender.

So in conclusion, there isn't a single contender out there that would compromise their defense by playing Bargnani 30 mins. An odd ball team like the Suns might try it but they aren't a serious contender.

[DG88]

LOL, this ain't a video game, when taking on $10 mil in salary you have to give up something, what would those teams give up for the privelege of having Bargs?

TBH, you just pulled that list out of your ass is what it seems.

If we did things like that then you can make a case for every team in the league wanting Jose on their roster as well but we know from the trade deadline that that's not the case.

The only team I realistically using Bargnani is Orlando since he fits in with what they do and Howard can help erase his mistakes but not any of the other teams.

If he's in Orlando he'd have Ryan Andersen's role on the team

[Reignman]

LOL, this ain't a video game, when taking on $10 mil in salary you have to give up something, what would those teams give up for the privelege of having Bargs?

TBH, you just pulled that list out of your ass is what it seems.

If we did things like that then you can make a case for every team in the league wanting Jose on their roster as well but we know from the trade deadline that that's not the case.

The only team I realistically using Bargnani is Orlando since he fits in with what they do and Howard can help erase his mistakes but not any of the other teams.

If he's in Orlando he'd have Ryan Andersen's role on the team

Exactly, and Anderson averaged about 19 mins over his last 2 years in Orlando before being shipped to NJ.

[Reignman]

With a solid centre, Bargs would be an ideal complement at the 4 as a starter on many teams, this is obvious to all. Why do you think BC wanted Chandler? Even he knows that too. BC is just collecting assets for the right trade and would move anybody despite what people here think. This trio of Bargs/Amir/Ed will not last if we're serious about building a winner. Unless we get some decent coaching who could get Bargs properly trained as a centre, he needs to be a 4. Otherwise, he is trade bait.

This is only obvious to some groupie fans and a GM that wrongly believed in the evolution of the game.

The only guy that might be able to cover for Bargs is D12 but playing next to Bargs he'd probably foul out in less than 30 mins and trust me, no coach is letting D12 foul out that quickly. That's why Ryan Anderson only got about 19 mins per game coming off the bench in Orlando.

[sonn]

LOL, this ain't a video game, when taking on $10 mil in salary you have to give up something, what would those teams give up for the privelege of having Bargs?

TBH, you just pulled that list out of your ass is what it seems.

If we did things like that then you can make a case for every team in the league wanting Jose on their roster as well but we know from the trade deadline that that's not the case.

The only team I realistically using Bargnani is Orlando since he fits in with what they do and Howard can help erase his mistakes but not any of the other teams.

If he's in Orlando he'd have Ryan Andersen's role on the team

Only team with championship aspirations I could think of. Bigs with his skillset don't seem to be in high demand around the league.

[Reignman]

The only team I realistically using Bargnani is Orlando since he fits in with what they do and Howard can help erase his mistakes but not any of the other teams.

If he's in Orlando he'd have Ryan Andersen's role on the team

Only team with championship aspirations I could think of. Bigs with his skillset don't seem to be in high demand around the league.

Stretch bigs are gravy, not a key component to winning championships. And definitely not the ones that are low efficiency and don't bring anything else to the table while being paid $10 mil per year.

[Cake Walk]

LOL, this ain't a video game, when taking on $10 mil in salary you have to give up something, what would those teams give up for the privelege of having Bargs?

TBH, you just pulled that list out of your ass is what it seems.

If we did things like that then you can make a case for every team in the league wanting Jose on their roster as well but we know from the trade deadline that that's not the case.

It was a hypothetical situation, or at least thats what I took it as. If Bargnani was on any of those teams he would be receiving 28-30 minutes a game. If we were a championship contender, then I assume he would be getting 28 minutes a game here as well. Not hard to understand, mr critical thinker.

Our goal is to build a championship team and he was asking which contenders would play bargnani meaningful minutes. That was my answer. And yes I pulled those teams out of my ass, how observant of you. As opposed to pulling them out of my nose, ear or magic lamp.

I guess you pulled the 28-30 mins out of your ass as well?

- Matt Bonner gets 21 mins in SA.
- Ryan Anderson is averaging less than 20 and has never averaged over 21
- Channing Frye last season got 27 mins

So here's the deal, stretch bigs typically don't get a lot of mins unless they bring other things to the table. Every player on that list is a better rebounder and defender than Bargs. Looking at that list the only player that has gotten a lot of mins recently is Channing Frye who is averaging 32 mins this season but that's on the Suns and defense isn't exactly their first concern. On top of that he's still a superior rebounder defender.

So in conclusion, there isn't a single contender out there that would compromise their defense by playing Bargnani 30 mins. An odd ball team like the Suns might try it but they aren't a serious contender.

Yes, I did pull that number out of my ass. Again, where was I supposed to pull it from? Was I supposed to create an alternate universe with my god like powers and play out an entire season with bargnani on those teams and report back here with my findings? Of course I pulled it out of my ass it is my opinion.

and lol @ channing frye and matt bonner being better defenders than Bargnani. Talk about people over valuing other teams peripheral players.

And maybe those stretch bigs dont play a lot of minutes, but Bargnani has much more talent then them, has 2-3 inches on the players you listed. And Ryan Anderson is a "stretch big" shooting a sizzling 42% from the field being the 5th option on that team.

Basically your entire post is wrong. Where did you pull it out of?