Back on the treadmill

[anotherhomer]

The Harden situation has demonstrated to us is that player empowerment is not going to trend away any time soon - the market for disgruntled stars is not going to thin out. You can do everything you can please a player and still strike out. If I'm looking at around the league, my hunch is that the clock ticking for Devin Booker, Donovan Mitchell, and I suspect even Ben Simmons, just like Kevin Durant and Anthony Davis as the predecessors that came before.

There's going to be another opportunity just like the draft, except your ability to keep a winning culture is only going to help not hurt your chances. Getting a lottery pick, however, has the opposite equation. You either tank for a high pick, or continue to compete (or "treadmill") in hopes of a rumour mill to start on the next star entering free agency or demand a trade.

The last team that used organic growth that paved the way to championship was 2014-2015 Golden State warriors - after 5 straight losing seasons from when they drafted Curry in 2009; a once in a generation star. And they had to stink their way to drafting Klay Thompson as well. The Process actually worked - except it happened in Golden State. And Dallas looks like to follow the same trajectory with Luca Doncic.

What I'm saying is if I had to choose between the two paths to success - tanking or 'treadmilling', I much much rather put a winning product, a competitive 'treadmill' team on the floor. Especially so if we can maintain cap flexibility, picks, and core talent.

kinda agree
if you take the mavs as a benchmark, in their final years, they barely made the playoffs from 2013-2016, but then missed the playoffs for 2 seasons, before hitting on Luka

If you look it that way, keeping the Raptors competitive for 4-5 more seasons, and staying in the playoffs, isn't bad at all.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas_Mavericks#2013%E2%80%932016:_Return_to_the_playoffs

[Vampirate]

The fact that the Raptors are still Lowry or bust at his age is pathetic and should be called out. We have over 200 mill in cap tied up to 2 floor raisers with zero shot at superstardom. We are entering a worse version of the Lowry/DeRozan era (Lowry being way better than both these dudes being why. Don't delude yourselves into the Giannis pipedream.

This team is a crappy offensive unit that relies on defense who just got worse on both ends (assuming both Marc and Serge are gone). We're probably going to be a top 4 seed as usual but this is an early playoff exit. If Kyle loses a step forget it.

Looks like I was right about Giannis being a pipe-dream. We have the worst future of all the East playoff teams.

Where do we go from here?

We have a shot at a harden trade (depending on what the 76ers, Heat and net are willing to give up).

If the Raptors land harden (long shot), they then could go after a max FA in the offseason, like Harden, Siakam, MAx FA, Lowry, something like that.

Most likely think to happen though is the raptors go after Olidipo or Gobert in the offseason.

[sidsid]

The Harden situation has demonstrated to us is that player empowerment is not going to trend away any time soon - the market for disgruntled stars is not going to thin out. You can do everything you can please a player and still strike out. If I'm looking at around the league, my hunch is that the clock ticking for Devin Booker, Donovan Mitchell, and I suspect even Ben Simmons, just like Kevin Durant and Anthony Davis as the predecessors that came before.

There's going to be another opportunity just like the draft, except your ability to keep a winning culture is only going to help not hurt your chances. Getting a lottery pick, however, has the opposite equation. You either tank for a high pick, or continue to compete (or "treadmill") in hopes of a rumour mill to start on the next star entering free agency or demand a trade.

The last team that used organic growth that paved the way to championship was 2014-2015 Golden State warriors - after 5 straight losing seasons from when they drafted Curry in 2009; a once in a generation star. And they had to stink their way to drafting Klay Thompson as well. The Process actually worked - except it happened in Golden State. And Dallas looks like to follow the same trajectory with Luca Doncic.

What I'm saying is if I had to choose between the two paths to success - tanking or 'treadmilling', I much much rather put a winning product, a competitive 'treadmill' team on the floor. Especially so if we can maintain cap flexibility, picks, and core talent.

kinda agree
if you take the mavs as a benchmark, in their final years, they barely made the playoffs from 2013-2016, but then missed the playoffs for 2 seasons, before hitting on Luka

If you look it that way, keeping the Raptors competitive for 4-5 more seasons, and staying in the playoffs, isn't bad at all.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas_Mavericks#2013%E2%80%932016:_Return_to_the_playoffs

It's a fun, best case scenario type of situation, but the semi-competitive tank still relies on getting players at high value pick slots. We can rag on the Sixers all we want, but they still have Embiid and Simmons, which most teams, including us, would rather have.

To add to your list, the Spurs lucked into Duncan because of the Robinson injury. The problem with this approach is that you can't really plan a "we're trying to be good but actually ended up bad in some key situations".

The better bet is to have your cake and eat it too. The Celtics just spent a half decade as a playoff team with varying lineups, attracting some free agents, and all of it barely mattered in the end because pretty much the only things of value on their team now is directly related to the Nets tanking for them. OKC has set themselves up for this too.

How do we do that in our situation? Our best bet is to turn Lowry into some of those assets by taking on some bad ones.

[anotherhomer]

The Harden situation has demonstrated to us is that player empowerment is not going to trend away any time soon - the market for disgruntled stars is not going to thin out. You can do everything you can please a player and still strike out. If I'm looking at around the league, my hunch is that the clock ticking for Devin Booker, Donovan Mitchell, and I suspect even Ben Simmons, just like Kevin Durant and Anthony Davis as the predecessors that came before.

There's going to be another opportunity just like the draft, except your ability to keep a winning culture is only going to help not hurt your chances. Getting a lottery pick, however, has the opposite equation. You either tank for a high pick, or continue to compete (or "treadmill") in hopes of a rumour mill to start on the next star entering free agency or demand a trade.

The last team that used organic growth that paved the way to championship was 2014-2015 Golden State warriors - after 5 straight losing seasons from when they drafted Curry in 2009; a once in a generation star. And they had to stink their way to drafting Klay Thompson as well. The Process actually worked - except it happened in Golden State. And Dallas looks like to follow the same trajectory with Luca Doncic.

What I'm saying is if I had to choose between the two paths to success - tanking or 'treadmilling', I much much rather put a winning product, a competitive 'treadmill' team on the floor. Especially so if we can maintain cap flexibility, picks, and core talent.

kinda agree
if you take the mavs as a benchmark, in their final years, they barely made the playoffs from 2013-2016, but then missed the playoffs for 2 seasons, before hitting on Luka

If you look it that way, keeping the Raptors competitive for 4-5 more seasons, and staying in the playoffs, isn't bad at all.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas_Mavericks#2013%E2%80%932016:_Return_to_the_playoffs

It's a fun, best case scenario type of situation, but the semi-competitive tank still relies on getting players at high value pick slots. We can rag on the Sixers all we want, but they still have Embiid and Simmons, which most teams, including us, would rather have.

To add to your list, the Spurs lucked into Duncan because of the Robinson injury. The problem with this approach is that you can't really plan a "we're trying to be good but actually ended up bad in some key situations".

The better bet is to have your cake and eat it too. The Celtics just spent a half decade as a playoff team with varying lineups, attracting some free agents, and all of it barely mattered in the end because pretty much the only things of value on their team now is directly related to the Nets tanking for them. OKC has set themselves up for this too.

How do we do that in our situation? Our best bet is to turn Lowry into some of those assets by taking on some bad ones.

there's no teams right now that are desperate for Kyle Lowry.
Clippers could use Lowry but they got nothing to offer
Sixers could but Morey is not in a rush to overpay for him

[Kingsway_fan]

Masai should focus on euro stars... they tend not to be the primadonas the American player stars often are...

Case in point. Giannis.

Any other American superstar in Milwaukee. Different outcomes likely.

[PhilBlackson]

Hello my old friend.

[WaltFrazier]

A treadmill that has a max slot open for next year. Right.

All we needed for contention was serge Ibaka? The guy we benched in crunch time when facing elimination?

Enuff respect for serge....but he's not the difference between a treadmill team and a contender.

A max slot that no superstar will want to fill because, you know, Canada.

The OP is right

[mdenny]

A treadmill that has a max slot open for next year. Right.

All we needed for contention was serge Ibaka? The guy we benched in crunch time when facing elimination?

Enuff respect for serge....but he's not the difference between a treadmill team and a contender.

A max slot that no superstar will want to fill because, you know, Canada.



The OP is right

You're right. What's the use? Lol

What alternative do you suggest? NOT managing our cap space? Lol

[jimmy keys]

Masai should focus on euro stars... they tend not to be the primadonas the American player stars often are...

Case in point. Giannis.

Any other American superstar in Milwaukee. Different outcomes likely.

yeah without being too ignorant it's hard to not agree with this. something about America culture that encourages diva behaviour.

you look at the list of international superstars over the decades and they almost always spend the vast majority of their careers with one team.

[douggood]

i want to know the definition of treadmill.

[MixxSRC]

Masai should focus on euro stars... they tend not to be the primadonas the American player stars often are...

Case in point. Giannis.

Any other American superstar in Milwaukee. Different outcomes likely.

Colangelo was right

[Ado05]

Masai should focus on euro stars... they tend not to be the primadonas the American player stars often are...

Case in point. Giannis.

Any other American superstar in Milwaukee. Different outcomes likely.

Yeah, we need a superstar from Africa, Europe or Canada.

[Raps in 4]

Masai should focus on euro stars... they tend not to be the primadonas the American player stars often are...

Case in point. Giannis.

Any other American superstar in Milwaukee. Different outcomes likely.

yeah without being too ignorant it's hard to not agree with this. something about America culture that encourages diva behaviour.

you look at the list of international superstars over the decades and they almost always spend the vast majority of their careers with one team.

I don't think it's a cultural thing. You don't see this behaviour from MLB, NFL, or NHL players. You do see it from European soccer players though, and none of them are American. It's only American basketball and European soccer players that act like this.

I'm not sure what it is. Maybe a function of being coddled by the media and the league pushing for big markets to succeed.

Incidentally, the NBA and European soccer are the sports leagues with the most blatant rigging to set up big markets for success.

[Cactus Jack]

Masai should focus on euro stars... they tend not to be the primadonas the American player stars often are...

Case in point. Giannis.

Any other American superstar in Milwaukee. Different outcomes likely.

yeah without being too ignorant it's hard to not agree with this. something about America culture that encourages diva behaviour.

you look at the list of international superstars over the decades and they almost always spend the vast majority of their careers with one team.

I don't think it's a cultural thing. You don't see this behaviour from MLB, NFL, or NHL players. You do see it from European soccer players though, and none of them are American. It's only American basketball and European soccer players that act like this.

I'm not sure what it is. Maybe a function of being coddled by the media and the league pushing for big markets to succeed.

Incidentally, the NBA and European soccer are the sports leagues with the most blatant rigging to set up big markets for success.

Bingo.

It's not just an American thing. It's the sport. Basketball promotes this (specific players rather than teams). If you're a star (lebron, KD, etc.) you're going to get a heck of a lot more attention than you would in a sport like Hockey or even Football (53 players). A star Basketball player can have a greater impact. Players also market themselves (shoe deals, etc.). Same thing with Soccer stars outside North America (Ronaldo, Neymar, Messi).

If you're a QB in Football, it doesn't matter if you play in markets like Green Bay or Kansas City. You'll still get the recognition & endorsement deals.

[Tha Cynic]

A treadmill that has a max slot open for next year. Right.

All we needed for contention was serge Ibaka? The guy we benched in crunch time when facing elimination?

Enuff respect for serge....but he's not the difference between a treadmill team and a contender.

A max slot that no superstar will want to fill because, you know, Canada.

The OP is right

Leonard didn't want to fill that slot either. He came, and both sides helped each other win a championship.

Keep building a great team and look for those players. The Raptors have a creative front office - they're not the Lakers or Knicks who just throw money at big name players.

[TheBoi10]

Harden trade time!

[YelloC]

We missed so many games to injury last year and still finished with the second best record in the league. If we have an average year injury wise we probably finish with a similar record or a couple wins short.
Nurse is going to coach this team up as he’s proven to be able to do this far.
We’re likely on 50 win treadmill for the foreseeable future which on this board is somehow a bad thing.

[WaltFrazier]

We missed so many games to injury last year and still finished with the second best record in the league. If we have an average year injury wise we probably finish with a similar record or a couple wins short.
Nurse is going to coach this team up as he’s proven to be able to do this far.
We’re likely on 50 win treadmill for the foreseeable future which on this board is somehow a bad thing.

50 is optimistically high. And it's a relative "bad thing" after tasting a championship. And losing to hated rivals like Boston, and seeing Miami improve so much.

[Son Goku 25]

What i find fascinating while reading Bucks board is how insecure they are and how most of them are happy he didn't ckme here instead of what most media was saying (Dallas, Mia, LA) lol I guess for their sanity its good he stayed

[RaptorNews]

No matter how many wins, no matter how many championships, this board will never change.

We literally won a championship 18 months ago and everyone is wondering why we have an aging all star as our best player