The truth about FVV

[gbball]

I disagree. He gave the ball up more willingly and didn't force his offense as much.

Tied his season high in FGs, 25.9 usage. Average time of possession was 8 seconds (6.9 on the year). 97 touches (84.7/year). 4.55 dribbles/touch (4.55 on the year). 66 passes/ 60 on the year. Considering he played two extra minutes than average, it looks like he either held onto the ball more or an inconsequential amount.

Philly's defense was trash, though, so I'm sure he looked better because of that. Curry and Maxey are bbq chicken for guards that know what they're doing.

Stats don't matter on this board anymore. The only things that matter are the eye test of posters who are blinded by their own bias and Scottie playing +36 MPG with a +30 USG% so he can get ROTY (which is ironic because of the FVV bashing when he said he wants more accolades).

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I'm only responding to this since it's in response to what I said.

I bumped this thread to give Fred his due after a good game. And I clearly said before that I have confidence he'll figure things out after pointing out issues I saw with his play. I like Barnes, but I don't think he should be bigger than the team and I think his development/touches are good so far.

I don't care who takes the shots, I don't care who's the star. I only care that the team plays unselfishly and with the goal of winning. If I see bad basketball plays, I'll call it out, namely, forced shots, missing mismatches, and hero ball in general. Stats are important, but stats alone don't tell the whole story. We've all seen our team get hosed by officiating...you can't always look at the foul calls and freethrows afterwards and say the game was called the same way as usual.

Fred along with Nurse and Masai currently have the most responsibility on the team. Because they are the primary decision makers. Masai in the front office, Nurse on the bench, Fred on the floor. If I see the front office make a questionable decision, it's on Masai, if I see questionable rotations or undisciplined offense, that's on Nurse, if I see poor passing or non-passing from the point guard I'm going to say it. But then I'll also commend them when they're doing good.

I like Fred, I think he's our best shooter. I think he's a big game player and I think he's able to run the point. I don't know if he's ideally suited to play point, but I do think he can figure it out. I've said as much plenty of times.

It bothers me that we have fans on this board who think they know more than anyone else and are willing to denigrate other posters for what they believe is a lack of basketball understanding. We don't all have to agree, that's fine, but what does a post like this contribute to the discussion? It just makes you look like an elitist.

[ATLTimekeeper]

I disagree. He gave the ball up more willingly and didn't force his offense as much.

Tied his season high in FGs, 25.9 usage. Average time of possession was 8 seconds (6.9 on the year). 97 touches (84.7/year). 4.55 dribbles/touch (4.55 on the year). 66 passes/ 60 on the year. Considering he played two extra minutes than average, it looks like he either held onto the ball more or an inconsequential amount.

Philly's defense was trash, though, so I'm sure he looked better because of that. Curry and Maxey are bbq chicken for guards that know what they're doing.

Stats don't matter on this board anymore. The only things that matter are the eye test of posters who are blinded by their own bias and Scottie playing +36 MPG with a +30 USG% so he can get ROTY (which is ironic because of the FVV bashing when he said he wants more accolades).

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Some dudes on this board are FoxNews right now. Last night Fred was killing it from every possible standpoint and guys were losing it on him. That game would have held up in any era. I enjoyed the hell out of it. Imagine watching a Raptor win and stewing because someone you hate proved you wrong.

[vini_vidi_vici]

I'll be the bad guy and say it.

He's the perfect candidate to swindle to another team as he's more highly regarded than his actual output. Pretty much (and I liked him) DeRozan. Lowry was the opposite. The Heat LOVE him and he's the engine that makes them go, but his stats are trash.

If Fred can net you a player who is better than him, or has more potential, you do it.

*runs for cover*

That is not a bad thing to say, I agree. I would say that for all non-young asset/s on this roster. If you can net a generational talent using FVV/young assets, do it. If you can get a young asset for FVV, you do it. Its reliant on value received though, and if the timeline for this roster is ready to consolidate (re: getting stars).

KL has been great for MIA. Hes not a counting stats guy, never was.

[MikeM]

The truth about FVV is that he would gladly stand in the corner and shoot open 3s if someone could create consistently like OG did down the stretch. But they can't.

[johanliebert]

I'll be the bad guy and say it.

He's the perfect candidate to swindle to another team as he's more highly regarded than his actual output. Pretty much (and I liked him) DeRozan. Lowry was the opposite. The Heat LOVE him and he's the engine that makes them go, but his stats are trash.

If Fred can net you a player who is better than him, or has more potential, you do it.

*runs for cover*

Is it so hard to find a comparable that’s not a former raptor? You have 29 other teams to chose from lol. Every hot take has to involve DeRozan even when it doesn’t fit.

[johanliebert]

The truth about FVV is that he would gladly stand in the corner and shoot open 3s if someone could create consistently like OG did down the stretch. But they can't.

He’s too good in the pick and roll to be content as a floor spacer. Truth is you guys have been wrong all season.

I have an inkling some of you rather be 0-11 as long as Barnes averges 25+ and takes all of the shots.

[MikeM]

The truth about FVV is that he would gladly stand in the corner and shoot open 3s if someone could create consistently like OG did down the stretch. But they can't.

He’s too good in the pick and roll to be content as a floor spacer. Truth is you guys have been wrong all season.

I have an inkling some of you rather be 0-11 as long as Barnes averges 25+ and takes all of the shots.

I think you quoted the wrong guy.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nba/article/want-awards-raptors-fred-vanvleet-goals-year/



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[sidsid]

One constant about this forum is the ability to equate good play with mainly efficiency of shooting. Everything else doesnt matter. FVV played last night like he has all yr.

The bigger problem is the expectations of the transition over from Lowry to Fred. The org has positioned it as some sort passing of the torch, which might apply to giving a good quote, but is nothing of the sort on the court.

There are 2 old hall of fame undersized PGs currently playing in this league who can manage an offense like no other. They understand the game on another level. Meanwhile, former MVP and walking triple double Westbrook has been passed around like a bad contract for years now and is currently killing the Lakers.

If what they did was easy, everyone would be doing it because there is nothing special about them physically outside of Kyle's enormous ass.

Fred is a combo guard who's strengths are mainly off-ball with a coach, and understandable offseason circumstances, forcing him into a bigger role that automatically limits the ceiling of a team on the offensive end.

He's never going to be Lowry. Our team's strengths right now are defense, turnovers and offensive rebounding to compensate for our limited ceiling in other offensive areas. That's baked in. Fred making a few more jump shots or nailing an extra drive and kick pass isn't going to change that fundamental problem. Possessions died in Ibaka's hands while they zipped around in Gasol's. No amount of complaining was going to change their skillsets.

The avenues to change that, in the near term, are also limited. Expecting a full systemic change to take advantage of some faster than expected development from Barnes and OG just doesn't usually happen in the middle of the regular season (if there's a window, it's the all star break, but even then). Courtside mentioned it in another thread, but what you're more likely to see is just adding some different sets to the offense as the season rolls along.

So, what you have to make due with this year is mostly individual improvement.

What you can get mad at, is FVV, the player playing the most minutes in the entire league, playing insane minutes on a back to back against Philly, a team who *checks notes* is missing its 2 best players while our sophomore PG picks up another DNP-CD in what *checks notes again* is supposed to be a development season. You can get mad at that because those things are entirely controllable and not baked in based on other structural limitations.

[ATLTimekeeper]

He doesn't have to make the hall of fame to be a good player. Mike Conley is good. No one on the Jazz or Grizzlies ****es incessantly about his height, or thinks it's a systemic problem they'll never recover from.

[CANsportsguru]

FVV is no Lowry and some nights is going to look great other nights look terrible. He needs to initiate ball movement more and stop with this hero-ball antics. He is our best perimeter scorer and is a vastly underrated defender just needs to pass the ball more.

[LoveMyRaps]

FVV playmaking has improved a ton since the start of the season. I've been awfully impressed. He'll continue to get better and might just be the heir apparent to Kyle Lowry after all.

[Los_29]

The FVV hate on here is straight up unhealthy. Reading through the game thread last night was pure comedy but at the same time quite frightening as I know these posters were actually being serious.

[sidsid]

He doesn't have to make the hall of fame to be a good player. Mike Conley is good. No one on the Jazz or Grizzlies ****es incessantly about his height, or thinks it's a systemic problem they'll never recover from.

No, but it's the types of criticism that comes from the standards and expectations of having those hall of fame talents and seeing it slowly dismantled post-chip. Seeing Kawhi leave and floundering in the playoffs, then Ibaka and Gasol leave and replaced with junk, and now finally Lowry orchestrating your offense for near a decade and then having to do without.

Not sure how Spurs fans took 15 years of excellence turned into grinding into a bubble team, but I assume it's rough there too. If you're the Knicks you're just super happy if Randle isn't Al Harrington 2.0.

Anyway, "why didn't Fred see that pass? Why didn't he find x player in his shooting pocket? Why has he taken too long on this possession?" Etc. It's because he doesn't have the talent to do better.

Welcome to the vast majority of teams in the league. Welcome to being, like, the Pacers who every year have to figure out a system and rely on precision and execution in order to leverage what talent they have.

It's clear that Fred as heliocentric offense isn't our long term future. It's going to be the development of the bigs and relieving Fred of the vast majority of the responsibilities he currently holds. Going back to something much closer to his role in the chip run while we try to replace Kawhi and Lowry and Gasol's impact in other ways.

We're just stuck here now in the interim just waiting on development and next season.

[Danny1616]

One constant about this forum is the ability to equate good play with mainly efficiency of shooting. Everything else doesnt matter. FVV played last night like he has all yr.

The bigger problem is the expectations of the transition over from Lowry to Fred. The org has positioned it as some sort passing of the torch, which might apply to giving a good quote, but is nothing of the sort on the court.

There are 2 old hall of fame undersized PGs currently playing in this league who can manage an offense like no other. They understand the game on another level. Meanwhile, former MVP and walking triple double Westbrook has been passed around like a bad contract for years now and is currently killing the Lakers.

If what they did was easy, everyone would be doing it because there is nothing special about them physically outside of Kyle's enormous ass.

Fred is a combo guard who's strengths are mainly off-ball with a coach, and understandable offseason circumstances, forcing him into a bigger role that automatically limits the ceiling of a team on the offensive end.

He's never going to be Lowry. Our team's strengths right now are defense, turnovers and offensive rebounding to compensate for our limited ceiling in other offensive areas. That's baked in. Fred making a few more jump shots or nailing an extra drive and kick pass isn't going to change that fundamental problem. Possessions died in Ibaka's hands while they zipped around in Gasol's. No amount of complaining was going to change their skillsets.

The avenues to change that, in the near term, are also limited. Expecting a full systemic change to take advantage of some faster than expected development from Barnes and OG just doesn't usually happen in the middle of the regular season (if there's a window, it's the all star break, but even then). Courtside mentioned it in another thread, but what you're more likely to see is just adding some different sets to the offense as the season rolls along.

So, what you have to make due with this year is mostly individual improvement.

What you can get mad at, is FVV, the player playing the most minutes in the entire league, playing insane minutes on a back to back against Philly, a team who *checks notes* is missing its 2 best players while our sophomore PG picks up another DNP-CD in what *checks notes again* is supposed to be a development season. You can get mad at that because those things are entirely controllable and not baked in based on other structural limitations.

Your analysis may turn out to be correct, but we have no idea yet.

But at age 27, Fred and Kyle are actually pretty close in terms of production. Kyle didn't come to our team as a finished product, he made improvements every year.

Last year, Fred was 12th in the league in RPM and ahead of Lowry. We always praised Lowry for being an advanced stat guru, but Fred also has great advanced stats now. Like Lowry, Fred doesn't have to be great offensively to impact the game. He's a great on ball defender.

You are assuming that the team is passing the torch for the sake of it, but they wouldn't be passing the torch if they didn't think Fred was the right guy for that role.

It's literally his first month as a full time starting point guard not sharing the backcourt with Lowry. He's averaging 20, 7 and 5 on good shooting splits and great on ball defense. The team is 7-6. Why don't we give him a chance to show what he can over the course of a full season instead of coming to conclusions that he's some sort of finished product without the talent to become that guy.

[VanWest82]

Lots of comments about how Fred will never be Lowry. It's worth noting that he currently sits at 7th in RAPTOR war and was top 10 last year until he got covid and hurt his hip. Kyle's best finish was 6th in 2016 but most years he was in the 11-15 range.

I understand people probably mean Fred will never be the play maker Kyle was, but in terms of overall impact including defense, he's already pretty darn close.

[ATLTimekeeper]

He doesn't have to make the hall of fame to be a good player. Mike Conley is good. No one on the Jazz or Grizzlies ****es incessantly about his height, or thinks it's a systemic problem they'll never recover from.

No, but it's the types of criticism that comes from the standards and expectations of having those hall of fame talents and seeing it slowly dismantled post-chip. Seeing Kawhi leave and floundering in the playoffs, then Ibaka and Gasol leave and replaced with junk, and now finally Lowry orchestrating your offense for near a decade and then having to do without.

Not sure how Spurs fans took 15 years of excellence turned into grinding into a bubble team, but I assume it's rough there too. If you're the Knicks you're just super happy if Randle isn't Al Harrington 2.0.

Anyway, "why didn't Fred see that pass? Why didn't he find x player in his shooting pocket? Why has he taken too long on this possession?" Etc. It's because he doesn't have the talent to do better.

Welcome to the vast majority of teams in the league. Welcome to being, like, the Pacers who every year have to figure out a system and rely on precision and execution in order to leverage what talent they have.

It's clear that Fred as heliocentric offense isn't our long term future. It's going to be the development of the bigs and relieving Fred of the vast majority of the responsibilities he currently holds. Going back to something much closer to his role in the chip run while we try to replace Kawhi and Lowry and Gasol's impact in other ways.

We're just stuck here now in the interim just waiting on development and next season.

Lowry wasn't heading to the hall of fame at 27, though. You're either forgetting or weren't around for "Lowry can't hit JV on the roll." "Lowry can't get his own shot." "Lowry got stuffed by Pierce in game 7 because he's too short." "Lowry and DeMar are freezing out JV because they're jealous." "Lowry doesn't have "it"" "Lowry is getting cooked by John Wall because he's too slow." "Lowry chokes." Maybe it's some people's lot in life to be miserable watching the Raptors. I'm here to tell you that, rationally, it has nothing to do with Fred VanVleet. He's certified "good."

The Raptors with Kyle Lowry were the Pacers.

[sidsid]

One constant about this forum is the ability to equate good play with mainly efficiency of shooting. Everything else doesnt matter. FVV played last night like he has all yr.

The bigger problem is the expectations of the transition over from Lowry to Fred. The org has positioned it as some sort passing of the torch, which might apply to giving a good quote, but is nothing of the sort on the court.

There are 2 old hall of fame undersized PGs currently playing in this league who can manage an offense like no other. They understand the game on another level. Meanwhile, former MVP and walking triple double Westbrook has been passed around like a bad contract for years now and is currently killing the Lakers.

If what they did was easy, everyone would be doing it because there is nothing special about them physically outside of Kyle's enormous ass.

Fred is a combo guard who's strengths are mainly off-ball with a coach, and understandable offseason circumstances, forcing him into a bigger role that automatically limits the ceiling of a team on the offensive end.

He's never going to be Lowry. Our team's strengths right now are defense, turnovers and offensive rebounding to compensate for our limited ceiling in other offensive areas. That's baked in. Fred making a few more jump shots or nailing an extra drive and kick pass isn't going to change that fundamental problem. Possessions died in Ibaka's hands while they zipped around in Gasol's. No amount of complaining was going to change their skillsets.

The avenues to change that, in the near term, are also limited. Expecting a full systemic change to take advantage of some faster than expected development from Barnes and OG just doesn't usually happen in the middle of the regular season (if there's a window, it's the all star break, but even then). Courtside mentioned it in another thread, but what you're more likely to see is just adding some different sets to the offense as the season rolls along.

So, what you have to make due with this year is mostly individual improvement.

What you can get mad at, is FVV, the player playing the most minutes in the entire league, playing insane minutes on a back to back against Philly, a team who *checks notes* is missing its 2 best players while our sophomore PG picks up another DNP-CD in what *checks notes again* is supposed to be a development season. You can get mad at that because those things are entirely controllable and not baked in based on other structural limitations.

Your analysis may turn out to be correct, but we have no idea yet.

But at age 27, Fred and Kyle are actually pretty close in terms of production. Kyle didn't come to our team as a finished product, he made improvements every year.

Last year, Fred was 12th in the league in RPM and ahead of Lowry. We always praised Lowry for being an advanced stat guru, but Fred also has great advanced stats now. Like Lowry, Fred doesn't have to be great offensively to impact the game. He's a great on ball defender.

You are assuming that the team is passing the torch for the sake of it, but they wouldn't be passing the torch if they didn't think Fred was the right guy for that role.

It's literally his first month as a full time starting point guard not sharing the backcourt with Lowry. He's averaging 20, 7 and 5 on good shooting splits and great on ball defense. The team is 7-6. Why don't we give him a chance to show what he can over the course of a full season instead of coming to conclusions that he's some sort of finished product without the talent to become that guy.

And here's a prime example of why expectations are out of whack.

Westbrook had analytics that put him right up there with Curry and CP3. His assist numbers are great. At no point in his career has Westbrook ever been a PG who made his teammates better like Lowry can. Westbrook is a freak athlete with talent who got stats through shear force of will.

There isn't a stat for "Ibaka's been hustling on D for a while and hasn't touched the ball yet so I'm gonna feed him to make sure he stays motivated" to show what the greats do.

Fred is a guy who, even in a stretch of his worst basketball ever in the Philly series, still found time to *look off Kawhi* who was demanding the ball so he could go on another Ill advised drive to the hoop.

Lowry's career has been famously riddled with being stuck behind other players and under utilized until he finally broke out as soon as someone gave him usage and a team.

Fred has not had that problem. He's had prime minutes in every conceivable role. Lead of the bench mob offense. First sub off the bench for prime minutes with a championship lineup. Lead of the bench (non-mob offense). Prime starter minutes next to a hall of fame PG, even though it was undersized. Top ten minutes in the league starter. Lead guard playing *the most minutes in the league*.

I can't even conceive of better circumstances for a player to thrive and show you what he could do. If he had it in him, we'd have seen it by now.

He's made strides, but like most players in the league, it's getting better at the role he's most suited for, which for him is still mainly off-ball combo guard. He's got a mid-ranger he can comfortably use now in that role when he's run off the line.

[Gold Dragon]

https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/the-raptors-show-with-will-lou/id1588453456?i=1000541278760

https://open.spotify.com/episode/0EvmO6JIjAynbyne9gnyz3?si=4zNUX3flSIu20cOr79ij2Q

Will Lou interview with Fred that I think a lot of folks have already heard with lots of great stuff.

- hard work in off season trying to get better to constantly grow and prepare for expected bigger role on the team
- recognizes many things still to improve
- Nick giving freedom to take midrange shot with bigger role
- midrange is discouraged by coaching staff/scheme for bench/role players
- has put a lot of hours into working on midrange
- ability to be aggressive on D comes from understanding schemes which GTJ is getting
- he has the trust of coaches because he buys in and tries to execute what the coaches are trying to do

[VanWest82]

Lowry's career has been famously riddled with being stuck behind other players and under utilized until he finally broke out as soon as someone gave him usage and a team.

Fred has not had that problem. He's had prime minutes in every conceivable role. Lead of the bench mob offense. First sub off the bench for prime minutes with a championship lineup. Lead of the bench (non-mob offense). Prime starter minutes next to a hall of fame PG, even though it was undersized. Top ten minutes in the league starter. Lead guard playing *the most minutes in the league*.

I can't even conceive of better circumstances for a player to thrive and show you what he could do. If he had it in him, we'd have seen it by now.

He's made strides, but like most players in the league, it's getting better at the role he's most suited for, which for him is still mainly off-ball combo guard. He's got a mid-ranger he can comfortably use now in that role when he's run off the line.

One could substitute Demar's name for Fred's in this post and it'd be materially correct outside the bench mob part. Of course, Demar has spent the last few years as a very underrated wing PG for Spurs and now Bulls after years of steadily progressing beyond his age 27 season. Seems a little premature to suggest Fred couldn't do the same.