Siakam is shooting the 3 at a historically bad rate, and has a chance to be one of the worst in NBA history.

[Chandan]

i mean... isn't it alarming that he can suddenly have 20 game stretches where he shoots at a historically bad rate.
what happens when it happens during the playoffs? You just... conceit and lose?

glad that shouldn't be our problem soon.

[ItsDanger]

Career 25.8% from 3 in the playoffs.

Hmmm.

[Scase]

The most common outcome on his 3 pt shot is 33%. We have years of data to support this and there is no need to manipulate numbers to get the result you want.

Fact of the matter is he had a horrible start to the year, and now has had a very good shooting month since this thread was made.

**** - we can even play your game, remove the 5/6 and 5/8 outing he had, and he still is shooting 32% since the thread was created.

Since his historically bad start prompting Scase to make the thread he has played 13 games.
He has gone 0-for 5 times
He has shot greater than 50% 6 times
and in the other two games he went 2/5 and 1/5

You are just using the same small sample data points from the first 20 or so games in which he was insanely cold to conclude

I don't think he'll maintain these bad rates rest of the way, but if I do a similar measurement last season, it comes out to around 30% from 3. Which for him is basically what kind of 3 pt shooter he is at this point. You guys just like to argue when the basic point is clear, he's not a good 3 pt shooter and it causes issues on this roster. If he limits his volume, its not a huge deal and he's been doing a decent job of that this season.

Siakam's 3FGA per36 (3.8) and 3PAr (.227) are almost right in line with his numbers from the previous 3 seasons (3.7 3FGA per36 with a .216 3PAr). He has never been a high volume shooter (with the exception of 19/20 when he averaged 6.2 3FGA per36 with a .331 3PAr), but he has almost always been a decent three-point shooter (one bad season at 30% in 20/21, two slightly below average seasons at 32% and 34% in 21/22 and 22/23 and two good seasons at 36% and 37% in 18/19 and 19/20) in totality considering his role/position.

Obviously it would help if Siakam was a 40% three-point shooter, but it's not like he is someone that can't shoot the three at all. The pushback in this thread has always been that Siakam has historically been a streaky shooter on relatively low volume for a star and it was silly to make claims that he'll end up being the worst shooter in history because he had a terrible month of November.

His shooting has been trending down for years, this isn't just about November. Yes he's streaky, but people using his monthly averages to pretend things are back to normal is inaccurate and disengenuous.

In December he took 38, 3 point shots. He made 14, 5 of those were in a single game where he shot 5/6. Yesterday he shot 5/8, these are massive outliers, maybe it saves his overall average, but that average is not an accurate representation of what you get on a game by game basis. No one is expecting him to shoot exactly 33% every single game, but his 3p splits in december?

0/4
1/1
0/1
1/2
5/6
2/3
0/1
1/5
0/4
0/2
0/2
2/5
2/2

Thats 6 of 13 games where he shot 0%, and one (1/5) where he shot 20%. So over half his games are non factors. His 3 isn't going to ever be respected with that level of inconsistency. He will get hot some games and maybe players will cover him closer those games, but it doesn't matter if he shoots 30% on the season if most of his games are 0% and the others are 60%.

His percentages are going up because he smartly recognized his shot aint going in and he's reduced his attempts from 4.1 to 3.3. This is good for both him and the team, but it doesn't fix his insane inconsistency.

He shot 32% last season, and in 30 of 71 games played he shot under his season average. 15 of those games were 0% shooting. As I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, for him to hit his season averages he needs to shot something absurd like 36/37% the rest of the season. Last year he had 23 total games shooting 36% or above. Maybe he doesn't end up worst in history, but he's still going to be up there in terms of top 5-10 worst shooting seasons ever.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

We've finally built a team that suits Siakam. Three point shooters, cutters, and creators. Looking forward to it all coming together.

[Johnny Bball]

This gets more stupid as it continues. Siakams 3 point shooting problems were on the road. There was a problem with both his shooting and how the Raptors played on the road. Its that simple.

Home 37%
Road 16%

Its not that his shot is broken, its not consistency, this, that or any other BS. Its the road where he is slumping. I hope he has turned the corner there as well recently, we will find out.

[tanuki1031]

His volume is down by choice. He knows his long / 3pt shooting is not good.

The point of the thread, as I understood it, is that Siakam's skill at outside shooting is in decline - that's not a good trend for him. His efficiency in the post (where he "makes his money") drops when there is a big man defending him, and he's not the type to initiate contact to draw fouls in the post (to overcome big defenders). Overall his skill set (and choice of shots) is reverting back to this 2019 game (he's no longer given the freedom to expand his iso game like from 2020-2023), which is fine for a 2nd / 3rd option, but not at a max contract starting at age 30. Also consider his defense has gotten much worse since 2019.

The 2019/2020 version of Siakam deserves a max, but not this version. I estimate 35M for current Siakam, but he wants the max at 47M. And this could be the reason the FO hasn't been able to sign Siakam to an extension yet

Don't bother, Del. There are those who can't accept that you can advocate for a player (as you did by saying a version of Siakam is worth a max) while being critical of the same player.
All reason goes out the window the moment you say anything negative about their guy.

You have these people crapping on RJ before he even played a game for the Raptors when they haven't watched a single game of his and have no idea how he plays making extreme criticisms and demanding he gets benched/traded. Then they whine even more after he goes 19/9/1 6-12 FG 1/2 3P 6/8 FT in a debut win because he had 5 TOs and missed one long 2 attempt, something he was already scarlet lettered for despite in his entire basketball career he avoids those types of shots.

Last season:
Barrett took 90 total shots in the 16-24ft range from baselines, elbows, top of the FT circle and 615 shots 0-7ft from the rim.
- I agree with the criticism that he needs to improve his finishing
- I disagree with the incorrect criticism that he is an inefficient chucker on perimeter jumpshots
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=barrett+shot+chart+2022-23

Siakam took 283 shots from 16-24ft across similar areas and 541 shots around the rim.
Whatever criticism is made about RJ's poor finishing around the rim (8% below league average) should apply to Siakam's poor shot making from distance (6%, 9%, 15%, 19% below league average depending on location)
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=siakam+shot+chart+2022-23

Here are Siakam's distance shooting volumes and percentages indicating his 0.8 FGA from 16-24ft is an outlier:

2018-19
16-24ft 0.1/0.2 44.4%, 24+ft 1.0/2.7 37.3%
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/shooting?TeamID=1610612761&DistanceRange=8ft+Range&Season=2018-19

2019-20
0.5/1.5 30.4%, 2.2/6.1 35.9%

2020-21
0.6/1.5 41.2%, 1.3/4.4 29.8%

2021-22
0.9/2.3 37.1%, 1.1/3.2 34.6%

2022-23
0.9/2.4 37.4%, 1.3/4.0 32.9%

2023-24
0.2/0.8 30.8%, 1.1/3.7 28.5%

It's ALMOST like Siakam's best is when he takes little to no shots from 16-24ft and low volume shots from 24+ft.
This Siakam 60TS% narrative has become the new 13 game Bargnani.

Siakam is the most guilty player of not playing within his capabilities and has been for the past five years, the worst part being he sacrificed the defensive part of his game to do it.

[tanuki1031]

This gets more stupid as it continues. Siakams 3 point shooting problems were on the road. There was a problem with both his shooting and how the Raptors played on the road. Its that simple.

Home 37%
Road 16%

Its not that his shot is broken, its not consistency, this, that or any other BS. Its the road where he is slumping. I hope he has turned the corner there as well recently, we will find out.

Hope consistency returns too.

It's like that absurd stat difference last season with JJJ's blocks at home and blocks on the road where the home scorers were accused of logging extra blocks. Some guys just perform a lot better in a familiar environment (court, crowd, city, etc.).

Siakam could work on that shooting form though. He's taking 3s with his right leg jutted way out. If he's short on 3PAs, that's one likely reason his shots are short.

[mrdressup]

It's someone else's future problem, right?

[Johnny Bball]

This gets more stupid as it continues. Siakams 3 point shooting problems were on the road. There was a problem with both his shooting and how the Raptors played on the road. Its that simple.

Home 37%
Road 16%

Its not that his shot is broken, its not consistency, this, that or any other BS. Its the road where he is slumping. I hope he has turned the corner there as well recently, we will find out.

Hope consistency returns too.

It's like that absurd stat difference last season with JJJ's blocks at home and blocks on the road where the home scorers were accused of logging extra blocks. Some guys just perform a lot better in a familiar environment (court, crowd, city, etc.).

Siakam could work on that shooting form though. He's taking 3s with his right leg jutted way out. If he's short on 3PAs, that's one likely reason his shots are short.

I'm not saying his form is perfect and cant get better. I'm saying its not drastically changed or smashed or bits is all.

I agree that some guys perform better at home. Its just this one got in his head it seems and was tough to end. But it was clearly the road that became the issue and its also that this team is just bad on the road.

[YogurtProducer]

I don't think he'll maintain these bad rates rest of the way, but if I do a similar measurement last season, it comes out to around 30% from 3. Which for him is basically what kind of 3 pt shooter he is at this point. You guys just like to argue when the basic point is clear, he's not a good 3 pt shooter and it causes issues on this roster. If he limits his volume, its not a huge deal and he's been doing a decent job of that this season.

Siakam's 3FGA per36 (3.8) and 3PAr (.227) are almost right in line with his numbers from the previous 3 seasons (3.7 3FGA per36 with a .216 3PAr). He has never been a high volume shooter (with the exception of 19/20 when he averaged 6.2 3FGA per36 with a .331 3PAr), but he has almost always been a decent three-point shooter (one bad season at 30% in 20/21, two slightly below average seasons at 32% and 34% in 21/22 and 22/23 and two good seasons at 36% and 37% in 18/19 and 19/20) in totality considering his role/position.

Obviously it would help if Siakam was a 40% three-point shooter, but it's not like he is someone that can't shoot the three at all. The pushback in this thread has always been that Siakam has historically been a streaky shooter on relatively low volume for a star and it was silly to make claims that he'll end up being the worst shooter in history because he had a terrible month of November.

His shooting has been trending down for years, this isn't just about November. Yes he's streaky, but people using his monthly averages to pretend things are back to normal is inaccurate and disengenuous.

In December he took 38, 3 point shots. He made 14, 5 of those were in a single game where he shot 5/6. Yesterday he shot 5/8, these are massive outliers, maybe it saves his overall average, but that average is not an accurate representation of what you get on a game by game basis. No one is expecting him to shoot exactly 33% every single game, but his 3p splits in december?

0/4
1/1
0/1
1/2
5/6
2/3
0/1
1/5
0/4
0/2
0/2
2/5
2/2

Thats 6 of 13 games where he shot 0%, and one (1/5) where he shot 20%. So over half his games are non factors. His 3 isn't going to ever be respected with that level of inconsistency. He will get hot some games and maybe players will cover him closer those games, but it doesn't matter if he shoots 30% on the season if most of his games are 0% and the others are 60%.

His percentages are going up because he smartly recognized his shot aint going in and he's reduced his attempts from 4.1 to 3.3. This is good for both him and the team, but it doesn't fix his insane inconsistency.

He shot 32% last season, and in 30 of 71 games played he shot under his season average. 15 of those games were 0% shooting. As I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, for him to hit his season averages he needs to shot something absurd like 36/37% the rest of the season. Last year he had 23 total games shooting 36% or above. Maybe he doesn't end up worst in history, but he's still going to be up there in terms of top 5-10 worst shooting seasons ever.

What??? You mean a guy shooting low volume puts up 0-for games? Crazy.

That’s such a ridiculous argument.

Not to mention, “top 5–10 worst shoot seasons ever” is just as ridiculous considering your criteria barely includes any shooters as 4 3PA per game was limited to purely elite shooter up until the last 4 years.

[Scase]

Siakam's 3FGA per36 (3.8) and 3PAr (.227) are almost right in line with his numbers from the previous 3 seasons (3.7 3FGA per36 with a .216 3PAr). He has never been a high volume shooter (with the exception of 19/20 when he averaged 6.2 3FGA per36 with a .331 3PAr), but he has almost always been a decent three-point shooter (one bad season at 30% in 20/21, two slightly below average seasons at 32% and 34% in 21/22 and 22/23 and two good seasons at 36% and 37% in 18/19 and 19/20) in totality considering his role/position.

Obviously it would help if Siakam was a 40% three-point shooter, but it's not like he is someone that can't shoot the three at all. The pushback in this thread has always been that Siakam has historically been a streaky shooter on relatively low volume for a star and it was silly to make claims that he'll end up being the worst shooter in history because he had a terrible month of November.

His shooting has been trending down for years, this isn't just about November. Yes he's streaky, but people using his monthly averages to pretend things are back to normal is inaccurate and disengenuous.

In December he took 38, 3 point shots. He made 14, 5 of those were in a single game where he shot 5/6. Yesterday he shot 5/8, these are massive outliers, maybe it saves his overall average, but that average is not an accurate representation of what you get on a game by game basis. No one is expecting him to shoot exactly 33% every single game, but his 3p splits in december?

0/4
1/1
0/1
1/2
5/6
2/3
0/1
1/5
0/4
0/2
0/2
2/5
2/2

Thats 6 of 13 games where he shot 0%, and one (1/5) where he shot 20%. So over half his games are non factors. His 3 isn't going to ever be respected with that level of inconsistency. He will get hot some games and maybe players will cover him closer those games, but it doesn't matter if he shoots 30% on the season if most of his games are 0% and the others are 60%.

His percentages are going up because he smartly recognized his shot aint going in and he's reduced his attempts from 4.1 to 3.3. This is good for both him and the team, but it doesn't fix his insane inconsistency.

He shot 32% last season, and in 30 of 71 games played he shot under his season average. 15 of those games were 0% shooting. As I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, for him to hit his season averages he needs to shot something absurd like 36/37% the rest of the season. Last year he had 23 total games shooting 36% or above. Maybe he doesn't end up worst in history, but he's still going to be up there in terms of top 5-10 worst shooting seasons ever.

What??? You mean a guy shooting low volume puts up 0-for games? Crazy.

That’s such a ridiculous argument.

Not to mention, “top 5–10 worst shoot seasons ever” is just as ridiculous considering your criteria barely includes any shooters as 4 3PA per game was limited to purely elite shooter up until the last 4 years.

I also did it for 3 a game, and guess what, same thing.

But 4 a game is now both low volume and only for elite shooters outside the last 4 years, thats a real solid argument. But yeah man, keep defending a horrific 3 point shooter, literally nothing you say changes the reality of it.

[YogurtProducer]

His shooting has been trending down for years, this isn't just about November. Yes he's streaky, but people using his monthly averages to pretend things are back to normal is inaccurate and disengenuous.

In December he took 38, 3 point shots. He made 14, 5 of those were in a single game where he shot 5/6. Yesterday he shot 5/8, these are massive outliers, maybe it saves his overall average, but that average is not an accurate representation of what you get on a game by game basis. No one is expecting him to shoot exactly 33% every single game, but his 3p splits in december?

0/4
1/1
0/1
1/2
5/6
2/3
0/1
1/5
0/4
0/2
0/2
2/5
2/2

Thats 6 of 13 games where he shot 0%, and one (1/5) where he shot 20%. So over half his games are non factors. His 3 isn't going to ever be respected with that level of inconsistency. He will get hot some games and maybe players will cover him closer those games, but it doesn't matter if he shoots 30% on the season if most of his games are 0% and the others are 60%.

His percentages are going up because he smartly recognized his shot aint going in and he's reduced his attempts from 4.1 to 3.3. This is good for both him and the team, but it doesn't fix his insane inconsistency.

He shot 32% last season, and in 30 of 71 games played he shot under his season average. 15 of those games were 0% shooting. As I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, for him to hit his season averages he needs to shot something absurd like 36/37% the rest of the season. Last year he had 23 total games shooting 36% or above. Maybe he doesn't end up worst in history, but he's still going to be up there in terms of top 5-10 worst shooting seasons ever.

What??? You mean a guy shooting low volume puts up 0-for games? Crazy.

That’s such a ridiculous argument.

Not to mention, “top 5–10 worst shoot seasons ever” is just as ridiculous considering your criteria barely includes any shooters as 4 3PA per game was limited to purely elite shooter up until the last 4 years.

I also did it for 3 a game, and guess what, same thing.

But 4 a game is now both low volume and only for elite shooters outside the last 4 years, thats a real solid argument. But yeah man, keep defending a horrific 3 point shooter, literally nothing you say changes the reality of it.

You do realize you can go look at how many players take 4 3PA a game over different seasons right? Go look where Siakam ranks this year in 3PA/game and where he would’ve ranked 5, 10, 20, 30 years ago.

It’s just insanely cherry picked to sound worse than it really is. Not surprising however

[Scase]

What??? You mean a guy shooting low volume puts up 0-for games? Crazy.

That’s such a ridiculous argument.

Not to mention, “top 5–10 worst shoot seasons ever” is just as ridiculous considering your criteria barely includes any shooters as 4 3PA per game was limited to purely elite shooter up until the last 4 years.

I also did it for 3 a game, and guess what, same thing.

But 4 a game is now both low volume and only for elite shooters outside the last 4 years, thats a real solid argument. But yeah man, keep defending a horrific 3 point shooter, literally nothing you say changes the reality of it.

You do realize you can go look at how many players take 4 3PA a game over different seasons right? Go look where Siakam ranks this year in 3PA/game and where he would’ve ranked 5, 10, 20, 30 years ago.

It’s just insanely cherry picked to sound worse than it really is. Not surprising however

So let me get this straight, there are now tons more players shooting 4 3pa a game, and the fact that he STILL is flirting with being historically bad is a defence of him? Do you even understand what you are saying?

More people shooting this volume than ever, and he's still looking to be one of the worst in NBA history. If anything that should HELP him not.

[YogurtProducer]

I also did it for 3 a game, and guess what, same thing.

But 4 a game is now both low volume and only for elite shooters outside the last 4 years, thats a real solid argument. But yeah man, keep defending a horrific 3 point shooter, literally nothing you say changes the reality of it.

You do realize you can go look at how many players take 4 3PA a game over different seasons right? Go look where Siakam ranks this year in 3PA/game and where he would’ve ranked 5, 10, 20, 30 years ago.

It’s just insanely cherry picked to sound worse than it really is. Not surprising however

So let me get this straight, there are now tons more players shooting 4 3pa a game, and the fact that he STILL is flirting with being historically bad is a defence of him? Do you even understand what you are saying?

More people shooting this volume than ever, and he's still looking to be one of the worst in NBA history. If anything that should HELP him not.

Being in the bottom whatever, among shooters who shoot over your arbitrary shots per game, who played more than your arbitrary games, isn’t exactly the point you think it is.

Siakam is 120th in volume this year. Why don’t you take the top 120 in volume from every NBA season and figure out if he’s still the worst shooter of all time?

Or is “close to worst shooter in the last 3 years” not as good of a title?

[Scase]

You do realize you can go look at how many players take 4 3PA a game over different seasons right? Go look where Siakam ranks this year in 3PA/game and where he would’ve ranked 5, 10, 20, 30 years ago.

It’s just insanely cherry picked to sound worse than it really is. Not surprising however

So let me get this straight, there are now tons more players shooting 4 3pa a game, and the fact that he STILL is flirting with being historically bad is a defence of him? Do you even understand what you are saying?

More people shooting this volume than ever, and he's still looking to be one of the worst in NBA history. If anything that should HELP him not.

Being in the bottom whatever, among shooters who shoot over your arbitrary shots per game, who played more than your arbitrary games, isn’t exactly the point you think it is.

Siakam is 120th in volume this year. Why don’t you take the top 120 in volume from every NBA season and figure out if he’s still the worst shooter of all time?

Or is “close to worst shooter in the last 3 years” not as good of a title?

It wasn't arbitrary, I used Siakam's 3pa per game, if you had even an ounce of objectivity you could have put 2+2 together, but clearly that's asking too much.

Just keep coming up with more and more half assed excuses to try and defend a guy who is shooting 25% on the year, pathetic.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

How you jokers doing with this thread? Worst ever eh? I'm going to bring this thread back for eva eva

[Nebuchadnezzar]

And again tell me more.....

[PushDaRock]

This might shock people, but Siakam is shooting 47% from the corners this season. The main factor in the turnaround has been taking a lot more of them while passing on the above the break ones he was taking earlier. He's really turned things around on his shot selection overall this year and it's led to his most efficient season since the championship.

[Scase]

How you jokers doing with this thread? Worst ever eh? I'm going to bring this thread back for eva eva

Why are you taking victory laps, this proves nothing. My post was literally to point out if he were to continue shooting poorly, that would be the result. Are you illiterate?

[Tripod]

Too bad he gave up 7 threes tonight to the guys he was guarding.

But hey, he made some so that's what matters.