Masai messed up but deserves another chance

[DelAbbot]

Just to put things in perspective there has been a trend that has been happening in the NBA for the last few years. Fringe all-stars and all-stars on big contracts are perceived more as liabilities than assets. Unless a superstar is being moved you aren't getting the same amount of value. Teams caught with guys on max deals when they enter their 30s end up crippling themselves.

People crap on Masai about Lowry, Fred, Pascal, but those guys honestly were not worth what they were getting paid or soon to be paid.

Look at Chicago, you don't think they would have moved Derozan, Lavine or Vuc? They didn't because the value in the league for such a player is not that high.

The Trend moving forward is that teams cannot keep three superstars and if you sign the third guy to a max, you better be prepared to pay taxes through your nose and win a chip. Therefore the way to build a sustainable contender will be 2 max players and like 4-5 guys in the 15-20 million range, a few rookies and a few vets.

I agree with what you said but

So why didn't Masai trade them before they reach FA (Lowry, FVV) or about to reach FA (Siakam), if he is smart to figure out they are not worth what they were soon getting paid. This is why we are so worked up in criticizing our top 5 paid President

[Scase]

What I am faulting him for (again based of what TGM was saying), is that if the NBA is trending/showing that you cannot build a legitimate contender with 3 players on max/near max contracts, Masai going into that off season expecting to sign FVV to a 30-35mil contract, and having that be the first domino to paying Siakam a max contract, and then paying OG another 30-40mil contract, AND then having to worry about Scotties rookie max.

These weren't the comps when they decided to keep FVV over the TDL. Those are the comps from last off-season.

It was expected that FVV would receive a contract much like Brunson's and no one thought OG would get above $25 million until Portland signed Jerami Grant to that massive contract.

Also, the three-max contract issue came with the new apron rules. This year's champion will likely have four players making over 30 million per.

What are you talking about? During the lead up to the summer FA period with FVV 30+ was being thrown around constantly, as for Grant, if you ever thought OG was going to cap OUT at 25mil, I dont know what to tell you man. His player option is already 20mil now, and the cap is/was going up. 25mil was never a realistic option. There were reports saying that the max extension the Raps could offer him 4/117, which is 29mil+, still wouldn't be enough to keep him here.

Agents use other players as a metric for sure, but Grant is not why OG is getting paid.

[ChillRelaxDude]

What I am faulting him for (again based of what TGM was saying), is that if the NBA is trending/showing that you cannot build a legitimate contender with 3 players on max/near max contracts, Masai going into that off season expecting to sign FVV to a 30-35mil contract, and having that be the first domino to paying Siakam a max contract, and then paying OG another 30-40mil contract, AND then having to worry about Scotties rookie max.

These weren't the comps when they decided to keep FVV over the TDL. Those are the comps from last off-season.

It was expected that FVV would receive a contract much like Brunson's and no one thought OG would get above $25 million until Portland signed Jerami Grant to that massive contract.

Also, the three-max contract issue came with the new apron rules. This year's champion will likely have four players making over 30 million per.

What are you talking about? During the lead up to the summer FA period with FVV 30+ was being thrown around constantly, as for Grant, if you ever thought OG was going to cap OUT at 25mil, I dont know what to tell you man. His player option is already 20mil now, and the cap is/was going up. 25mil was never a realistic option. There were reports saying that the max extension the Raps could offer him 4/117, which is 29mil+, still wouldn't be enough to keep him here.

Agents use other players as a metric for sure, but Grant is not why OG is getting paid.

Up until the off-season, FVV and the 4/114 was the discussion. He didn't exactly have an overly productive season that merited above the Rap's in-season max extension, let alone the Rocket's final offer.

I don't recall anyone talking about OG at 4/117 until after the offseason once there were higher comps. The discussion became the hope of that extension at that price instead of getting him at market price, which had turned to an expected 35-40 million.

The point is, I think you're applying today's information to yesterday's.

[Scase]

These weren't the comps when they decided to keep FVV over the TDL. Those are the comps from last off-season.

It was expected that FVV would receive a contract much like Brunson's and no one thought OG would get above $25 million until Portland signed Jerami Grant to that massive contract.

Also, the three-max contract issue came with the new apron rules. This year's champion will likely have four players making over 30 million per.

What are you talking about? During the lead up to the summer FA period with FVV 30+ was being thrown around constantly, as for Grant, if you ever thought OG was going to cap OUT at 25mil, I dont know what to tell you man. His player option is already 20mil now, and the cap is/was going up. 25mil was never a realistic option. There were reports saying that the max extension the Raps could offer him 4/117, which is 29mil+, still wouldn't be enough to keep him here.

Agents use other players as a metric for sure, but Grant is not why OG is getting paid.

Up until the off-season, FVV and the 4/114 was the discussion. He didn't exactly have an overly productive season that merited above the Rap's in-season max extension, let alone the Rocket's final offer.

I don't recall anyone talking about OG at 4/117 until after the offseason once there were higher comps. The discussion became the hope of that extension at that price instead of getting him at market price, which had turned to an expected 35-40 million.

The point is, I think you're applying today's information to yesterday's.

I disagree with your assessment of when these talks were on going. But even if I am incorrect about this, Masais job is to predict things of this nature. Maybe not to the extend of a max offer from houston. But if your FO is going to assume that the players are going to take the exact amount that is allowable from an extension and not a penny more. Then well, they are idiots.

[ChillRelaxDude]

What are you talking about? During the lead up to the summer FA period with FVV 30+ was being thrown around constantly, as for Grant, if you ever thought OG was going to cap OUT at 25mil, I dont know what to tell you man. His player option is already 20mil now, and the cap is/was going up. 25mil was never a realistic option. There were reports saying that the max extension the Raps could offer him 4/117, which is 29mil+, still wouldn't be enough to keep him here.

Agents use other players as a metric for sure, but Grant is not why OG is getting paid.

Up until the off-season, FVV and the 4/114 was the discussion. He didn't exactly have an overly productive season that merited above the Rap's in-season max extension, let alone the Rocket's final offer.

I don't recall anyone talking about OG at 4/117 until after the offseason once there were higher comps. The discussion became the hope of that extension at that price instead of getting him at market price, which had turned to an expected 35-40 million.

The point is, I think you're applying today's information to yesterday's.

I disagree with your assessment of when these talks were on going. But even if I am incorrect about this, Masais job is to predict things of this nature. Maybe not to the extend of a max offer from houston. But if your FO is going to assume that the players are going to take the exact amount that is allowable from an extension and not a penny more. Then well, they are idiots.

I don't think FVV's season was strong enough to merit more than the offer of 114/4 that he supposedly turned down at the beginning of the season. He performed worse than the season prior, there was a lot of negativity surrounding him and his shortcomings were becoming more transparent (i.e. inability to finish).

Houston spending that Harden money on him wasn't an amount that was dictated by the market, it was them maxing out spendable money on a short-term commitment. Masai couldn't predict that, and it doesn't make sense to use this as an example of failure when you're even saying that it was unprecedented/unexpected.

[disoblige]

Like I said before, I made a tank thread 2 yrs ago and it was locked and 3 out of 13 voted YES to tanking/rebuilding. And many said it was not probable or a good idea.

You can't execute a plan where your stakeholders, seat holders, staff and players don't agree with.

What exactly are you saying by pointing out you made a tank thread 2 years ago? You know you are talking to the staunchest supporters of the Tank World Order posters right?

You guys dwell too much on what ifs. Specially if it doesnt exist. Masai has to report to MLSE. Goodluck telling them, lets blow it up after 48 win season with 2 all-star and a rookie of the year. Season seat holders, coaches and players wouldnt have appproved of this. And there's so many factors to take into account like the return of the trades must be bad enough to tank, the offers in the table, etc. What would have happed if we did tank and fail every ping pong balls on every of those years? The whole fan base, would still be bitching on what ifs lke "What if our all-star Barnes played with prime Siakam and Fred"

[Merit]

We know the Fred offer, it was 1 first. I’m sure they would have taken it had they known FVV would walk but as has been stated before, they did not know a huge overpay offer was out there. At the time it was: re-sign FVV for $30m vs a single 1st. This is the same thing that happens for every player that hits free agency. The team has to weigh the return (a 1st) vs re-signing their own player. The Houston offer only materialized AFTER the trade deadline so, according to you, the front office should have known Houston was going to hire Udoka, who was then going to convince Houston to give up on Harden and pivot to a huge overpay of Fred.

Basically your argument is: “I can’t believe Masai didn’t literally predict the future”, which is a ridiculous assessment. You can criticize him for other things but not being able to foresee the Houston offer is not a valid criticism.

It’s tiring hearing the same thing over and over and over when the response (the timeline of Fred’s signing) has never changed. I wish Scase would stop trying to force a narrative that is objectively incorrect.

Then carry on with your day.

I was trying to be generous given that you sometimes have things to say that I value. But hey, if you say so.

[Altern8]

As an aside, if you compare the arc of both Ujiri and Tim Connelly over the past 5 years, there would be valid supporting evidence to suggest that Connelly has been the more astute in assembling a viably competitive roster (installed the foundation of the Nuggets that Booth has been the beneficiary and for supervising the current personnel constitution on the Wolves).

Ujiri's enjoyed the results of unintended random happenstance (e.g. Dolan negating the Lowry trade).

[Scase]

Up until the off-season, FVV and the 4/114 was the discussion. He didn't exactly have an overly productive season that merited above the Rap's in-season max extension, let alone the Rocket's final offer.

I don't recall anyone talking about OG at 4/117 until after the offseason once there were higher comps. The discussion became the hope of that extension at that price instead of getting him at market price, which had turned to an expected 35-40 million.

The point is, I think you're applying today's information to yesterday's.

I disagree with your assessment of when these talks were on going. But even if I am incorrect about this, Masais job is to predict things of this nature. Maybe not to the extend of a max offer from houston. But if your FO is going to assume that the players are going to take the exact amount that is allowable from an extension and not a penny more. Then well, they are idiots.

I don't think FVV's season was strong enough to merit more than the offer of 114/4 that he supposedly turned down at the beginning of the season. He performed worse than the season prior, there was a lot of negativity surrounding him and his shortcomings were becoming more transparent (i.e. inability to finish).

Houston spending that Harden money on him wasn't an amount that was dictated by the market, it was them maxing out spendable money on a short-term commitment. Masai couldn't predict that, and it doesn't make sense to use this as an example of failure when you're even saying that it was unprecedented/unexpected.

You argued no to my 30-35mil for FVV then turn around and say he was offered 28.5, like what I said was impossible. Again who cares what was discussed publicly, expecting a player to just take a basic extension and not plan for ANYTHING else is stupid. Planning to bring back this weak ass core is stupid. Going into FA assuming only you can offer a player what they want, is stupid.

Other teams having cap space was not a surprise or unknown. FVV being all about the money was not a surprise, or unknown. Offering a guy who is clearly about the money, and has seen the writing on the wall with the team and his place on it, the bare minimum they could offer him in an extension and not planning for a potential backfire of that. Is negligence.

But hey, keep pretending like it was them being blind sided. You can be surprised by how MUCH he was offered, not that he was offered something from another team.

It’s tiring hearing the same thing over and over and over when the response (the timeline of Fred’s signing) has never changed. I wish Scase would stop trying to force a narrative that is objectively incorrect.

Then carry on with your day.

I was trying to be generous given that you sometimes have things to say that I value. But hey, if you say so.

All you are doing is whining and crying and ignoring the context of the discussion. I'm more than happy to have constructive discussions, but if all you have to say is "I'm tired of you saying X", then keep it to yourself and move on. It adds nothing and just serves to stir up ****.

[disoblige]

Isn't it like half the GMs job to plan for the future?

To say we can't fault Masai for not being able to anticipate future scenarios is nonsense. He is not doing a good job predicting trends and what not.

You can plan all you like and do research. Future is still uncertain. Most plans fail. There are always unexpected events due to many factors in play and others competing against you. You can see this all over NBA, other businesses or personal life.

[Merit]

I disagree with your assessment of when these talks were on going. But even if I am incorrect about this, Masais job is to predict things of this nature. Maybe not to the extend of a max offer from houston. But if your FO is going to assume that the players are going to take the exact amount that is allowable from an extension and not a penny more. Then well, they are idiots.

I don't think FVV's season was strong enough to merit more than the offer of 114/4 that he supposedly turned down at the beginning of the season. He performed worse than the season prior, there was a lot of negativity surrounding him and his shortcomings were becoming more transparent (i.e. inability to finish).

Houston spending that Harden money on him wasn't an amount that was dictated by the market, it was them maxing out spendable money on a short-term commitment. Masai couldn't predict that, and it doesn't make sense to use this as an example of failure when you're even saying that it was unprecedented/unexpected.

You argued no to my 30-35mil for FVV then turn around and say he was offered 28.5, like what I said was impossible. Again who cares what was discussed publicly, expecting a player to just take a basic extension and not plan for ANYTHING else is stupid. Planning to bring back this weak ass core is stupid. Going into FA assuming only you can offer a player what they want, is stupid.

Other teams having cap space was not a surprise or unknown. FVV being all about the money was not a surprise, or unknown. Offering a guy who is clearly about the money, and has seen the writing on the wall with the team and his place on it, the bare minimum they could offer him in an extension and not planning for a potential backfire of that. Is negligence.

But hey, keep pretending like it was them being blind sided. You can be surprised by how MUCH he was offered, not that he was offered something from another team.

Then carry on with your day.

I was trying to be generous given that you sometimes have things to say that I value. But hey, if you say so.

All you are doing is whining and crying and ignoring the context of the discussion. I'm more than happy to have constructive discussions, but if all you have to say is "I'm tired of you saying X", then keep it to yourself and move on. It adds nothing and just serves to stir up ****.

The only person stirring up $hit is you. I’ve literally given you several benefits of the doubt and space to take the high road on multiple occasions. Instead, you incessantly say the same trite crap. It’s all been covered. You’re adding nothing to the discussion. I don’t need your permission to do, say or think anything. I was merely being generous and leaving you an out.

On top of being wrong and providing no context other than paraphrasing what you’ve previously said, you have the audacity to resort to personal attacks and say I’m whining and crying and ignoring when you’re the person who literally told me to add you to my ignore list. No prob dude; added!

It’s too bad really. Prideful behaviour sucks. Stfu and listen to posters more knowledgeable than you sometimes. You might actually learn something. Then again, I’m not holding my breath.

[Merit]

I disagree with your assessment of when these talks were on going. But even if I am incorrect about this, Masais job is to predict things of this nature. Maybe not to the extend of a max offer from houston. But if your FO is going to assume that the players are going to take the exact amount that is allowable from an extension and not a penny more. Then well, they are idiots.

I don't think FVV's season was strong enough to merit more than the offer of 114/4 that he supposedly turned down at the beginning of the season. He performed worse than the season prior, there was a lot of negativity surrounding him and his shortcomings were becoming more transparent (i.e. inability to finish).

Houston spending that Harden money on him wasn't an amount that was dictated by the market, it was them maxing out spendable money on a short-term commitment. Masai couldn't predict that, and it doesn't make sense to use this as an example of failure when you're even saying that it was unprecedented/unexpected.

<< this is the point. Added to the timeline of Udoka’s hiring shared with you by consarnit and you can acknowledge that the probability of this was slim and the FO had limited time to prepare for this.

You argued no to my 30-35mil for FVV then turn around and say he was offered 28.5, like what I said was impossible. (There’s something called contract structure and term. Might want to consider it.) Again who cares what was discussed publicly, (I do. It’s the closest we will ever get to knowing what actually happened) expecting a player to just take a basic extension and not plan for ANYTHING else is stupid. (How do you know they did that? Answer: you made it up out of thin air.) Planning to bring back this weak ass core is stupid. (The same nonsense you spew, without acknowledging that the team would have been objectively better with Fred on it.) Going into FA assuming only you can offer a player what they want, is stupid. (There is no planet on which this happened. This is only in your head. How you can be so prideful that you think you know better than an nba front office in any capacity, never mind assuming that a front office only has one plan is beyond me.)

Other teams having cap space was not a surprise or unknown. FVV being all about the money was not a surprise, or unknown. Offering a guy who is clearly about the money, and has seen the writing on the wall with the team and his place on it, the bare minimum they could offer him in an extension and not planning for a potential backfire of that. Is negligence. (Again, your imagination is taking you places here. FVV had been open to signing, and the raptors were considered front runners for his services until he got a huge salary on a shorter term at the last minute.)

But hey, keep pretending like it was them being blind sided. You can be surprised by how MUCH he was offered, not that he was offered something from another team. The only person demonstrating wilful ignorance here is you. Of course the FO knew that he could get offered something. He just got offered way more than was feasible for them to keep him. They made the right decision to move on, but it came at the expense of their winning and keeping the bench mob plus Scottie together.

Then carry on with your day.

I was trying to be generous given that you sometimes have things to say that I value. But hey, if you say so.

All you are doing is whining and crying and ignoring the context of the discussion. I'm more than happy to have constructive discussions, but if all you have to say is "I'm tired of you saying X", then keep it to yourself and move on. It adds nothing and just serves to stir up ****.

Please come correct with arguments that aren’t from your imagination.

[Merit]

As an aside, if you compare the arc of both Ujiri and Tim Connelly over the past 5 years, there would be valid supporting evidence to suggest that Connelly has been the more astute in assembling a viably competitive roster (installed the foundation of the Nuggets that Booth has been the beneficiary and for supervising the current personnel constitution on the Wolves).

Ujiri's enjoyed the results of unintended random happenstance (e.g. Dolan negating the Lowry trade).

Tim Connelly has had an excellent run. Please remember what it cost him to land Rudy Gobert.

[Los_29]

As an aside, if you compare the arc of both Ujiri and Tim Connelly over the past 5 years, there would be valid supporting evidence to suggest that Connelly has been the more astute in assembling a viably competitive roster (installed the foundation of the Nuggets that Booth has been the beneficiary and for supervising the current personnel constitution on the Wolves).

Ujiri's enjoyed the results of unintended random happenstance (e.g. Dolan negating the Lowry trade).

I don’t think Connelly drafted Anthony Edwards, did he? He also didn’t draft Jaden McDaniels, Naz Reid and KAT. That’s a lot of talent that he’s not responsible for.

[DelAbbot]

As an aside, if you compare the arc of both Ujiri and Tim Connelly over the past 5 years, there would be valid supporting evidence to suggest that Connelly has been the more astute in assembling a viably competitive roster (installed the foundation of the Nuggets that Booth has been the beneficiary and for supervising the current personnel constitution on the Wolves).

Ujiri's enjoyed the results of unintended random happenstance (e.g. Dolan negating the Lowry trade).

I don’t think Connelly drafted Anthony Edwards, did he? He also didn’t draft Jaden McDaniels, Naz Reid and KAT. That’s a lot of talent that he’s not responsible for.

I don't think Masai drafted Lowry, did he? He also didn't draft Demar Derozan, Terence Ross and JV. That's a lot of talent that he's not responsible for.

[Pointgod]

As an aside, if you compare the arc of both Ujiri and Tim Connelly over the past 5 years, there would be valid supporting evidence to suggest that Connelly has been the more astute in assembling a viably competitive roster (installed the foundation of the Nuggets that Booth has been the beneficiary and for supervising the current personnel constitution on the Wolves).

Ujiri's enjoyed the results of unintended random happenstance (e.g. Dolan negating the Lowry trade).

I don’t think Connelly drafted Anthony Edwards, did he? He also didn’t draft Jaden McDaniels, Naz Reid and KAT. That’s a lot of talent that he’s not responsible for.

I don't think Masai drafted Lowry, did he? He also didn't draft Demar Derozan, Terence Ross and JV. That's a lot of talent that he's not responsible for.

He did draft Siakam, Norm Powell, Van Vleet, Boucher and made the big balls trade for Gasol which was a gamble. Even though I believe the Kawhi trade was more so luck and Greg Popovich wanting to stick it to Kwahi and the Lakers. We were able to get so many good players in the draft, I have no idea why we went away from that strategy instead of loading up on picks.

[ConSarnit]

I don't think FVV's season was strong enough to merit more than the offer of 114/4 that he supposedly turned down at the beginning of the season. He performed worse than the season prior, there was a lot of negativity surrounding him and his shortcomings were becoming more transparent (i.e. inability to finish).

Houston spending that Harden money on him wasn't an amount that was dictated by the market, it was them maxing out spendable money on a short-term commitment. Masai couldn't predict that, and it doesn't make sense to use this as an example of failure when you're even saying that it was unprecedented/unexpected.

<< this is the point. Added to the timeline of Udoka’s hiring shared with you by consarnit and you can acknowledge that the probability of this was slim and the FO had limited time to prepare for this.

You argued no to my 30-35mil for FVV then turn around and say he was offered 28.5, like what I said was impossible. (There’s something called contract structure and term. Might want to consider it.) Again who cares what was discussed publicly, (I do. It’s the closest we will ever get to knowing what actually happened) expecting a player to just take a basic extension and not plan for ANYTHING else is stupid. (How do you know they did that? Answer: you made it up out of thin air.) Planning to bring back this weak ass core is stupid. (The same nonsense you spew, without acknowledging that the team would have been objectively better with Fred on it.) Going into FA assuming only you can offer a player what they want, is stupid. (There is no planet on which this happened. This is only in your head. How you can be so prideful that you think you know better than an nba front office in any capacity, never mind assuming that a front office only has one plan is beyond me.)

Other teams having cap space was not a surprise or unknown. FVV being all about the money was not a surprise, or unknown. Offering a guy who is clearly about the money, and has seen the writing on the wall with the team and his place on it, the bare minimum they could offer him in an extension and not planning for a potential backfire of that. Is negligence. (Again, your imagination is taking you places here. FVV had been open to signing, and the raptors were considered front runners for his services until he got a huge salary on a shorter term at the last minute.)

But hey, keep pretending like it was them being blind sided. You can be surprised by how MUCH he was offered, not that he was offered something from another team. The only person demonstrating wilful ignorance here is you. Of course the FO knew that he could get offered something. He just got offered way more than was feasible for them to keep him. They made the right decision to move on, but it came at the expense of their winning and keeping the bench mob plus Scottie together.

I was trying to be generous given that you sometimes have things to say that I value. But hey, if you say so.

All you are doing is whining and crying and ignoring the context of the discussion. I'm more than happy to have constructive discussions, but if all you have to say is "I'm tired of you saying X", then keep it to yourself and move on. It adds nothing and just serves to stir up ****.

Please come correct with arguments that aren’t from your imagination.

It’s not worth it my friend. Scase completely ignores the entire context surrounding Houston and then has the gall to claim that others are the ones missing context.

[Los_29]

As an aside, if you compare the arc of both Ujiri and Tim Connelly over the past 5 years, there would be valid supporting evidence to suggest that Connelly has been the more astute in assembling a viably competitive roster (installed the foundation of the Nuggets that Booth has been the beneficiary and for supervising the current personnel constitution on the Wolves).

Ujiri's enjoyed the results of unintended random happenstance (e.g. Dolan negating the Lowry trade).

I don’t think Connelly drafted Anthony Edwards, did he? He also didn’t draft Jaden McDaniels, Naz Reid and KAT. That’s a lot of talent that he’s not responsible for.

I don't think Masai drafted Lowry, did he? He also didn't draft Demar Derozan, Terence Ross and JV. That's a lot of talent that he's not responsible for.

Only one of those players were on our championship team. He acquired Gasol, Kawhi, FVV, Norm, Ibaka, Pascal, OG and Green.

So yeah, not a great example there.

[lobosloboslobos]

As an aside, if you compare the arc of both Ujiri and Tim Connelly over the past 5 years, there would be valid supporting evidence to suggest that Connelly has been the more astute in assembling a viably competitive roster (installed the foundation of the Nuggets that Booth has been the beneficiary and for supervising the current personnel constitution on the Wolves).

Ujiri's enjoyed the results of unintended random happenstance (e.g. Dolan negating the Lowry trade).

And Connelly didn't enjoy the unintended random happenstance of Jokic turning into the quasi-GOAT? If that happens to our 47th pick we'll look pretty smart too.

[DelAbbot]

I don’t think Connelly drafted Anthony Edwards, did he? He also didn’t draft Jaden McDaniels, Naz Reid and KAT. That’s a lot of talent that he’s not responsible for.

I don't think Masai drafted Lowry, did he? He also didn't draft Demar Derozan, Terence Ross and JV. That's a lot of talent that he's not responsible for.

Only one of those players were on our championship team. He acquired Gasol, Kawhi, FVV, Norm, Ibaka, Pascal, OG and Green.

So yeah, not a great example there.

Lol, Did Gasol & Kawhi come out of thin air, without JV and DD? And did we get Ibaka without Terence Ross?

You are twisting truth to disparage other GMs to prop up Masai now?