Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better?

[tsherkin]

RJ is not a particularly good scorer, I'm hard-pressed to think of anything he does much better than Iggy.

Alongside Scottie, he generally looks better than peak Iggy, as it happens.

We'll never know of course, but I just don't see it. If you told 25-yr old Iggy to cut out the long 2s, he'd be just as good offensively. Better-or-equal ball handler, better in transition, better-or-equal passer, similar shooter, better-or-equal shot creation

I meant strictly with respect to scoring. If you start adding in the other stuff, then sure. Then again, Iggy also began to fall off a cliff in the foul line in his late 20s, and mostly sucked from 3 as well (and was also quite inconsistent from the corners).

So there's some nuance to it.

[brownbobcat]

Alongside Scottie, he generally looks better than peak Iggy, as it happens.

We'll never know of course, but I just don't see it. If you told 25-yr old Iggy to cut out the long 2s, he'd be just as good offensively. Better-or-equal ball handler, better in transition, better-or-equal passer, similar shooter, better-or-equal shot creation

I meant strictly with respect to scoring. If you start adding in the other stuff, then sure. Then again, Iggy also began to fall off a cliff in the foul line in his late 20s, and mostly sucked from 3 as well (and was also quite inconsistent from the corners).

So there's some nuance to it.

I get it, but most of the things I listed were related to scoring. Iggy simply never took as many shots as RJ, but he was significantly more efficient than RJ vs. league average - that's just the difference that elite athleticism makes.

[PushDaRock]

These are the players averaging 18/6/6 this season. This is it. This is the list.



Scott Hall and others who think Scottie is a bust or not worth the max or wouldn't start on a contender are delusional.

edit: and here is last season

Make a list of players averaging 20/5/5... because 20/5/5 > 18/6/6. Does Scottie make that list? Scottie's assists are dropping fast BTW he's down to exactly 6.0 APG, and hes been averaging 4.9 APG his last 18 games... are we gonna then make a list of players averaging 18/6/5?

Can we also have a list of allstars who have a TS of 53.0% or worst?

Your list honest reminds me of this

lmao exactly what I was getting at, just a totally pointless list to try and paint Scottie as elite

[tsherkin]

I get it, but most of the things I listed were related to scoring. Iggy simply never took as many shots as RJ, but he was significantly more efficient than RJ vs. league average - that's just the difference that elite athleticism makes.

Mmmm. But RJ was been shouldering higher usage than Iguodala's career-high since he was a rookie, which also makes a difference. Iggy sucked donkey bawlz away from the restricted area for most of his career. He didn't really have the skillset to support 20 ppg at a decent rate in today's environment, I suspect. And he was worse in the corner.

So again, from a scoring perspective, I generally trust RJ more, to be honest. Overall player, different discussion, but scoring? Yeah, I lean towards RJ with a reasonable setup man.

[PushDaRock]

RJ is not a particularly good scorer, I'm hard-pressed to think of anything he does much better than Iggy.

Alongside Scottie, he generally looks better than peak Iggy, as it happens.

We'll never know of course, but I just don't see it. If you told 25-yr old Iggy to cut out the long 2s, he'd be just as good offensively. Better-or-equal ball handler, better in transition, better-or-equal passer, similar shooter, better-or-equal shot creation

I can see the argument for it. Over 60 games with Scottie, he's averaging 20.9 ppg on 58.9 TS% which is above league average. If we got RJ into his optimal USG rate range which is likely more around 23-25% instead of upper 20's, it's possible he could be consistently over 60 TS% especially if he could ever fix his FT shooting.

Iguodala's USG rate even in his volume scorer days were in the 22-24% range. His efficiency wasn't horrible mainly because of a high FTR and his athleticism also allowed him to get a lot of dunks. Other than that, his scoring ability was pretty bad overall.

[PushDaRock]

I get it, but most of the things I listed were related to scoring. Iggy simply never took as many shots as RJ, but he was significantly more efficient than RJ vs. league average - that's just the difference that elite athleticism makes.

Mmmm. But RJ was been shouldering higher usage than Iguodala's career-high since he was a rookie, which also makes a difference. Iggy sucked donkey bawlz away from the restricted area for most of his career. He didn't really have the skillset to support 20 ppg at a decent rate in today's environment, I suspect. And he was worse in the corner.

So again, from a scoring perspective, I generally trust RJ more, to be honest. Overall player, different discussion, but scoring? Yeah, I lean towards RJ with a reasonable setup man.

Some of those prime years, he was even averaging close to 2 dunks per game. Iggy when he wasn't attacking the rim was just a really poor offensive player.

[tsherkin]

I can see the argument for it. Over 60 games with Scottie, he's averaging 20.9 ppg on 58.9 TS% which is above league average. If we got RJ into his optimal USG rate range which is likely more around 23-25% instead of upper 20's, it's possible he could be consistently over 60 TS% especially if he could ever fix his FT shooting.

That's a good summary of my thoughts on RJ.

Iguodala's USG rate even in his volume scorer days were in the 22-24% range. His efficiency wasn't horrible mainly because of a high FTR and his athleticism also allowed him to get a lot of dunks. Other than that, his scoring ability was pretty bad overall.

Hella transition opportunities and sensible off-ball cuts. Not a lot of scoring tools beyond that. Kind of like a young Demar, but worse at the line.

[tsherkin]

Some of those prime years, he was even averaging close to 2 dunks per game. Iggy when he wasn't attacking the rim was just a really poor offensive player.

Exactly.

[Scase]

These are the players averaging 18/6/6 this season. This is it. This is the list.



Scott Hall and others who think Scottie is a bust or not worth the max or wouldn't start on a contender are delusional.

edit: and here is last season

These sort of lists are pretty pointless, why use 18-6-6 instead of 20-5-5? If we are doing 20-5-5, RJ makes the list and Scottie doesn't. Yet nobody on here has RJ has an untouchable franchise player and most people don't even think of him as a versatile all around type player.

RJ doesn't have all NBA defense potential.

Honestly, even zooming out and ignoring arbitrary cut offs, you have RJ essentially averaging 2ppg more on better efficiency.

Otherwise he's behind on boards, assists, and steals and blocks by a long shot, all on higher efficiency, all while ignoring defence entirely.

I agree with Push that these lists are pretty pointless, but people also usually use those lists in conjunction with the "rest" of the players performance to make a point. All that said, Scottie sucks on offence

[brownbobcat]

Mmmm. But RJ was been shouldering higher usage than Iguodala's career-high since he was a rookie, which also makes a difference. Iggy sucked donkey bawlz away from the restricted area for most of his career. He didn't really have the skillset to support 20 ppg at a decent rate in today's environment, I suspect. And he was worse in the corner.

100%, but so has RJ. The main reason he's looked more efficient in Toronto is because he stopped taking those shots.

Of course I'm involving some hypotheticals here in assuming Iggy could adjust to the corner 3 in today's game, but that's not exactly the hardest adjustment in the world. I just don't see any skill or trait RJ has that Iggy doesn't.

[tsherkin]

100%, but so has RJ. The main reason he's looked more efficient in Toronto is because he stopped taking those shots.

But he's also notably better in the corner than Iggy was, and above the break. He definitely isn't a focal guy, but he looks much more compelling as a #2.

Of course I'm involving some hypotheticals here in assuming Iggy could adjust to the corner 3 in today's game, but that's not exactly the hardest adjustment in the world. I just don't see any skill or trait RJ has that Iggy doesn't.

From 2012-2017, Iggy took 2.8 3PA/g at 35.1%, and took 35.1% of his 3PA from the corner, at 35.6%.

He was using the corner. He just wasn't any good at it. Even in 2015, league average from the corner was 38.7%.

[TheRaptor!]

yessss the fanbase is waking up

[mulamutti]

I'll be honest, i never, saw him as more than a Vince Carter level player. i.e. crazy talent, doesn't seem to have the win-at-all-costs, and lead the team mentality that the top-10 players in the league have. Basically top 10 type talent, but more like 20-30 level player. So if he leads the raptors, he will lead them to 1st round victories, maybe an odd 2nd round. He can be the second best player in an elite team, but he needs a batman.

I see all the Siakam references but don't fully agree. Siakam is not as talented as Barnes, and worked his a$$ off to maximize his abilities. Sort of like DeRozan. Barnes is more like vince carter, top 10 talent, but not the killer mentality and work ethic to maximize his talents.

You're talking as if Barnes is this hugely talented star player who can turn it on with a switch. This isn't a VC situation at all, who was a legit top 5 talent at the times. Barnes is more like if you took Andre Iguodala and asked him to be your franchise player.

Also put some respect on Siakams name, bro was All NBA by year 4. If Barnes ever got to that level we would be jumping for joy.

Where did i disrespect Siakam. I would be ecstatic if Barnes reached Siakam's level. I'm just saying he's more like a VC type talent who never fully reaches his top 10 potential. sure VC may have been higher talent wise. Barnes, like VC, doesn't seem to have that mamba mentality.

[RoyceDa59]

He’s a third option

[tsherkin]

Where did i disrespect Siakam. I would be ecstatic if Barnes reached Siakam's level. I'm just saying he's more like a VC type talent who never fully reaches his top 10 potential. sure VC may have been higher talent wise. Barnes, like VC, doesn't seem to have that mamba mentality.

It's a poor comparison, though. VC had reams and reams of talent. Riding on his natural talent, he was still pretty good. When he applied himself, he was phenomenal. Barnes is nothing like that. The similarity is that he doesn't have consistent aggression, sure, but there's much more to the picture there.

[Los_29]

I wouldn’t mind seeing what offers are out there for him. He’s going to be 24 and clearly has some nice tools that will allow him to contribute to winning basketball. The problem is that max contract. I’m not feeling too good about paying him that contract given his limitations. If we dial down his usage, we are looking at a 14/8/6 player with mediocre efficiency.

[Mark_83]

I am worred. He has not taken a step, little own a leap and we are nearing the end of year four. He fluctuates between good seasons and bad seasons. Is it time to just admit he is a great player but not going to ever be the guy? A rich mans Odom/Iguodala.

It's ok, Masai just waiting to trade him for Embiid.

[HangTime]

The Impatience is incredible.

Remember he's in 2nd year of development.

People can say 4th year all they want, but he wasn't developing in years 1 and 2, he was basically plug and play.

[Indeed]

The Impatience is incredible.

Remember he's in 2nd year of development.

People can say 4th year all they want, but he wasn't developing in years 1 and 2, he was basically plug and play.

What an excuse. Players can improve on their own starting from year 1.
Are you saying Barnes was lazy on his first 2 years? He can't improve his shooting on his own?

Furthermore, don't blame others, particularly, it was his own limitation.

[PushDaRock]

The Impatience is incredible.

Remember he's in 2nd year of development.

People can say 4th year all they want, but he wasn't developing in years 1 and 2, he was basically plug and play.

if we wait till year 10, the dividends might finally pay off