[STEIN]: Hawks have expressed interest in trying to hire Masai Ujiri away from Toronto

[Scase]

Genuinely don't understand the point you're trying to make here

Yeah, that's pretty evident.

Allow me to help, post 2019, we were in a serious asset debt, we (rightfully) moved a bunch of assets to build towards a chip. After that we didn't have much and mismanaged what assets we did have.

It's weird how so many people are hyped about a 9th pick and how Masai will "work his magic" yet losing the 8th or better was totally fine. So many people holding up Jak as a reason why landing the 9th pick isn't bad, yet in the same breath kept saying how finding someone as good as jak with the 8th pick was incredibly unlikely. Weird how that keeps shifting.

We have traded more, and higher value picks as a rebuilding team post chip, than we did pre-chip. Think about that for a second.

I just don't get how in one breath you can say he's good at using picks to identify and develop talent via the draft, but when he decides to use a pick to acquire and develop players via trade all of a sudden the sky is falling.

I just listed the assets that were traded and don't see the mismanagement you're seeing. In the past 5 years we drafted a bust at 29th and had a trade down that was questionable at best, but used the remaining assets to draft Scottie Barnes, Gradey Dick, Ja'Kobe Walter, and trade for Jakob Poeltl and Brandon Ingram. Still another Top 10 pick to add to that next month.

That's very far from asset mismanagement in my eyes

Because age, experience, and contract control matter. Why when you are rebuilding, should you be trading for guys in their mid to late 20's just to hit 25-30 wins. Why not spend that time drafting players, developing them, and having them on rookie contracts, so that when you are ready to compete, your roster isnt at the tax line for a 30 win team, you know, like how we are right now.

Take a look at OKC, that team isn't as good as they are without a bunch of low cost, high performing young players. Ain't no one scared of Jak and 50 games of BI.

This is how you build an OK team in a weak conference, not incremental builds to a potential contender. Go take a look at how many contenders are built around multiple mid to late firsts and chronically injured guys in their late 20's. This is nothing more than an as per usual, an accelerated rebuild because a contract year is coming up for Masai, and he can't afford another 20-30 win season. How this is not blatantly obvious to people, is beyond me.

[Duffman100]

Yeah, that's pretty evident.

Allow me to help, post 2019, we were in a serious asset debt, we (rightfully) moved a bunch of assets to build towards a chip. After that we didn't have much and mismanaged what assets we did have.

It's weird how so many people are hyped about a 9th pick and how Masai will "work his magic" yet losing the 8th or better was totally fine. So many people holding up Jak as a reason why landing the 9th pick isn't bad, yet in the same breath kept saying how finding someone as good as jak with the 8th pick was incredibly unlikely. Weird how that keeps shifting.

We have traded more, and higher value picks as a rebuilding team post chip, than we did pre-chip. Think about that for a second.

I just don't get how in one breath you can say he's good at using picks to identify and develop talent via the draft, but when he decides to use a pick to acquire and develop players via trade all of a sudden the sky is falling.

I just listed the assets that were traded and don't see the mismanagement you're seeing. In the past 5 years we drafted a bust at 29th and had a trade down that was questionable at best, but used the remaining assets to draft Scottie Barnes, Gradey Dick, Ja'Kobe Walter, and trade for Jakob Poeltl and Brandon Ingram. Still another Top 10 pick to add to that next month.

That's very far from asset mismanagement in my eyes

Because age, experience, and contract control matter. Why when you are rebuilding, should you be trading for guys in their mid to late 20's just to hit 25-30 wins. Why not spend that time drafting players, developing them, and having them on rookie contracts, so that when you are ready to compete, your roster isnt at the tax line for a 30 win team, you know, like how we are right now.

Take a look at OKC, that team isn't as good as they are without a bunch of low cost, high performing young players. Ain't no one scared of Jak and 50 games of BI.

This is how you build an OK team in a weak conference, not incremental builds to a potential contender. Go take a look at how many contenders are built around multiple mid to late firsts and chronically injured guys in their late 20's. This is nothing more than an as per usual, an accelerated rebuild because a contract year is coming up for Masai, and he can't afford another 20-30 win season. How this is not blatantly obvious to people, is beyond me.

You're saying the current team is a 25-30 win team?

[earthtone]

Yeah, that's pretty evident.

Allow me to help, post 2019, we were in a serious asset debt, we (rightfully) moved a bunch of assets to build towards a chip. After that we didn't have much and mismanaged what assets we did have.

It's weird how so many people are hyped about a 9th pick and how Masai will "work his magic" yet losing the 8th or better was totally fine. So many people holding up Jak as a reason why landing the 9th pick isn't bad, yet in the same breath kept saying how finding someone as good as jak with the 8th pick was incredibly unlikely. Weird how that keeps shifting.

We have traded more, and higher value picks as a rebuilding team post chip, than we did pre-chip. Think about that for a second.

I just don't get how in one breath you can say he's good at using picks to identify and develop talent via the draft, but when he decides to use a pick to acquire and develop players via trade all of a sudden the sky is falling.

I just listed the assets that were traded and don't see the mismanagement you're seeing. In the past 5 years we drafted a bust at 29th and had a trade down that was questionable at best, but used the remaining assets to draft Scottie Barnes, Gradey Dick, Ja'Kobe Walter, and trade for Jakob Poeltl and Brandon Ingram. Still another Top 10 pick to add to that next month.

That's very far from asset mismanagement in my eyes

Because age, experience, and contract control matter. Why when you are rebuilding, should you be trading for guys in their mid to late 20's just to hit 25-30 wins. Why not spend that time drafting players, developing them, and having them on rookie contracts, so that when you are ready to compete, your roster isnt at the tax line for a 30 win team, you know, like how we are right now.

Take a look at OKC, that team isn't as good as they are without a bunch of low cost, high performing young players. Ain't no one scared of Jak and 50 games of BI.

This is how you build an OK team in a weak conference, not incremental builds to a potential contender. Go take a look at how many contenders are built around multiple mid to late firsts and chronically injured guys in their late 20's. This is nothing more than an as per usual, an accelerated rebuild because a contract year is coming up for Masai, and he can't afford another 20-30 win season. How this is not blatantly obvious to people, is beyond me.

At a certain point in every rebuild you have to try to acquire some more proven talent. Of course having all-stars on their rookie contracts like OKC does would be ideal, but that situation is a major outlier historically in the NBA. Detroit made their leap this year by signing two 30+ free agents and one 28 year old. Cleveland mortgaged their future for Mitchell, the Knicks traded all of their assets for mid-late 20's guys, etc. etc. You gotta add proven talent at some point, and all of the vets we've traded for have been 27 or younger at the time of acquisition.

If we're marking this season as the end of the rebuild and the start of the playoff push, we're entering the season with a starting lineup comprised of two players who are ~Top 20 in the conference, and three other players who are roughly league average at their positions, with a collective average age of 26. Our bench will have three lottery picks, four top 20 picks, and it's likely the entire bench rotation will be guys on their rookie contracts.

If we're a 25-30 win team this season I'll happily concede that the approach to the rebuild was wrong, but I think we'll be much, much closer to 50 wins than 25.

[Scase]

At a certain point in every rebuild you have to try to acquire some more proven talent. Of course having all-stars on their rookie contracts like OKC does would be ideal, but that situation is a major outlier historically in the NBA. Detroit made their leap this year by signing two 30+ free agents and one 28 year old. Cleveland mortgaged their future for Mitchell, the Knicks traded all of their assets for mid-late 20's guys, etc. etc. You gotta add proven talent at some point, and all of the vets we've traded for have been 27 or younger at the time of acquisition.

If we're marking this season as the end of the rebuild and the start of the playoff push, we're entering the season with a starting lineup comprised of two players who are ~Top 20 in the conference, and three other players who are roughly league average at their positions, with a collective average age of 26. Our bench will have three lottery picks, four top 20 picks, and it's likely the entire bench rotation will be guys on their rookie contracts.

If we're a 25-30 win team this season I'll happily concede that the approach to the rebuild was wrong, but I think we'll be much, much closer to 50 wins than 25.

I agree wholeheartedly, but I think we can both agree that you don't do that when you aren't even a full year into a "rebuild". By Masai's own words, this was year 1 of the rebuild, and we didn't even make it to the mid point of that season before we started making those win now moves. Detroit has been rebuilding for years and have amassed a fair amount of young players/high picks. Cavs the same, Knicks the same cept they got super lucky with Brunson.

I don't have an issue with the plan overall, cause it is sound. But we do not have the organically grown roster to justify it, nor do we have a cost controlled roster. Our starting lineup costs over 156 million dollars. That leaves the real growth of the team, coming from a bunch of mid to late firsts and a handful of SRPs to take huge steps for this to be even remotely viable. That is a plan that requires a lot of unlikely stuff to happen for it to be successful. I'd actually be a lot more positive and in favour of this team, if not for the BI pickup.

And as for the win count at the end of the season, it will likely be inflated due to how pathetic the east is, so it's not a sign of great things to come. my concern isn't that they will be a 25-30 win team, my concern is the upper limit of the team as constructed is rather low. Much like the Siakam/FVV led teams, why double down on mediocrity, that's the whole reason we were "rebuilding".

[earthtone]

At a certain point in every rebuild you have to try to acquire some more proven talent. Of course having all-stars on their rookie contracts like OKC does would be ideal, but that situation is a major outlier historically in the NBA. Detroit made their leap this year by signing two 30+ free agents and one 28 year old. Cleveland mortgaged their future for Mitchell, the Knicks traded all of their assets for mid-late 20's guys, etc. etc. You gotta add proven talent at some point, and all of the vets we've traded for have been 27 or younger at the time of acquisition.

If we're marking this season as the end of the rebuild and the start of the playoff push, we're entering the season with a starting lineup comprised of two players who are ~Top 20 in the conference, and three other players who are roughly league average at their positions, with a collective average age of 26. Our bench will have three lottery picks, four top 20 picks, and it's likely the entire bench rotation will be guys on their rookie contracts.

If we're a 25-30 win team this season I'll happily concede that the approach to the rebuild was wrong, but I think we'll be much, much closer to 50 wins than 25.

I agree wholeheartedly, but I think we can both agree that you don't do that when you aren't even a full year into a "rebuild". By Masai's own words, this was year 1 of the rebuild, and we didn't even make it to the mid point of that season before we started making those win now moves. Detroit has been rebuilding for years and have amassed a fair amount of young players/high picks. Cavs the same, Knicks the same cept they got super lucky with Brunson.

I don't have an issue with the plan overall, cause it is sound. But we do not have the organically grown roster to justify it, nor do we have a cost controlled roster. Our starting lineup costs over 156 million dollars. That leaves the real growth of the team, coming from a bunch of mid to late firsts and a handful of SRPs to take huge steps for this to be even remotely viable. That is a plan that requires a lot of unlikely stuff to happen for it to be successful. I'd actually be a lot more positive and in favour of this team, if not for the BI pickup.

And as for the win count at the end of the season, it will likely be inflated due to how pathetic the east is, so it's not a sign of great things to come. my concern isn't that they will be a 25-30 win team, my concern is the upper limit of the team as constructed is rather low. Much like the Siakam/FVV led teams, why double down on mediocrity, that's the whole reason we were "rebuilding".

That's definitely fair, I can understand why people don't like the timing of the Ingram acquisition. I just think that if you have the chance to acquire talent so high-level at a cost so low you can't pass up on it. There's a high chance that when the off-season ends, Ingram is the best new addition in the Eastern Conference and that has a ton a value.

Our starting lineup is around league average in cost and we don't have any albatross contracts, just a bunch of pieces that are moveable if needed. I also think there's still a ton of room for growth for the guys we have on their second contract. I don't think Scottie, IQ, or RJ are in their primes yet, but they'll be growing into their prime years on this contract. All BI needs to do is stay healthy to be an All-Star next year. We've already seen in this organization that letting rookies grow as part of a bench unit on a playoff team can be great for development, and we'll have three lotto picks and another Top 20 as part of that unit.

Concerns about the ceiling are fair, but even if the ceiling for this roster is winning one playoff round, at the end of the day you still have to do the work to reach that ceiling. And if the East is so weak that wins don't matter, maybe the ceiling is even higher than that

[Scase]

At a certain point in every rebuild you have to try to acquire some more proven talent. Of course having all-stars on their rookie contracts like OKC does would be ideal, but that situation is a major outlier historically in the NBA. Detroit made their leap this year by signing two 30+ free agents and one 28 year old. Cleveland mortgaged their future for Mitchell, the Knicks traded all of their assets for mid-late 20's guys, etc. etc. You gotta add proven talent at some point, and all of the vets we've traded for have been 27 or younger at the time of acquisition.

If we're marking this season as the end of the rebuild and the start of the playoff push, we're entering the season with a starting lineup comprised of two players who are ~Top 20 in the conference, and three other players who are roughly league average at their positions, with a collective average age of 26. Our bench will have three lottery picks, four top 20 picks, and it's likely the entire bench rotation will be guys on their rookie contracts.

If we're a 25-30 win team this season I'll happily concede that the approach to the rebuild was wrong, but I think we'll be much, much closer to 50 wins than 25.

I agree wholeheartedly, but I think we can both agree that you don't do that when you aren't even a full year into a "rebuild". By Masai's own words, this was year 1 of the rebuild, and we didn't even make it to the mid point of that season before we started making those win now moves. Detroit has been rebuilding for years and have amassed a fair amount of young players/high picks. Cavs the same, Knicks the same cept they got super lucky with Brunson.

I don't have an issue with the plan overall, cause it is sound. But we do not have the organically grown roster to justify it, nor do we have a cost controlled roster. Our starting lineup costs over 156 million dollars. That leaves the real growth of the team, coming from a bunch of mid to late firsts and a handful of SRPs to take huge steps for this to be even remotely viable. That is a plan that requires a lot of unlikely stuff to happen for it to be successful. I'd actually be a lot more positive and in favour of this team, if not for the BI pickup.

And as for the win count at the end of the season, it will likely be inflated due to how pathetic the east is, so it's not a sign of great things to come. my concern isn't that they will be a 25-30 win team, my concern is the upper limit of the team as constructed is rather low. Much like the Siakam/FVV led teams, why double down on mediocrity, that's the whole reason we were "rebuilding".

That's definitely fair, I can understand why people don't like the timing of the Ingram acquisition. I just think that if you have the chance to acquire talent so high-level at a cost so low you can't pass up on it. There's a high chance that when the off-season ends, Ingram is the best new addition in the Eastern Conference and that has a ton a value.

Our starting lineup is around league average in cost and we don't have any albatross contracts, just a bunch of pieces that are moveable if needed. I also think there's still a ton of room for growth for the guys we have on their second contract. I don't think Scottie, IQ, or RJ are in their primes yet, but they'll be growing into their prime years on this contract. All BI needs to do is stay healthy to be an All-Star next year. We've already seen in this organization that letting rookies grow as part of a bench unit on a playoff team can be great for development, and we'll have three lotto picks and another Top 20 as part of that unit.

Concerns about the ceiling are fair, but even if the ceiling for this roster is winning one playoff round, at the end of the day you still have to do the work to reach that ceiling. And if the East is so weak that wins don't matter, maybe the ceiling is even higher than that

The question about BI isn't talent, honestly never has been, it's always been about health. And having a guy that hits 60 games in a good season is just playing with fire. Scottie/IQ/Rj definitely aren't in their primes, but RJ and IQ certainly don't have tons of headroom to grow, these aren't players with a couple years of experience, RJ is going into year 7 and IQ into year 6. Neither of which have shown much of any growth the last few seasons, and IQ just inked a new 5 year that is far from being earned.

We have a lot of money locked up in a team with tons of deficiencies, potential severe health issues, and a bench that could either blow up or turn to a big pile of nothing. There is no high upside, that's my biggest issue. There's nothing exciting about this team to me in the slightest, it's a roster filled up with largely known players who all need to take some massive next step for this to flash any real potential.

It just feels like it has all the trappings of a pure treadmill team.

[Duffman100]

It's the exact same criticism of the early days of Lowry Derozan in a similar situation.

[rapz101]

It's the exact same criticism of the early days of Lowry Derozan in a similar situation.

Facts. Everyone thinks you can build a winner quickly. Seldom does it work that way.

I wonder if we tanked hard for 6 years straight and struck out on a lot or many of those picks. Where would the team be right now.

The mental block of losing for many years straight is a huge thing to overcome, this raptor team isn’t so far removed from those times. I remember the year of Lamarcus Aldridge’s free agency where he ultimately chose the spurs, he gave the raptors a meeting and that was touted as a huge win because the perception and reputation was changing within and outside the organization. I think it’s wise not to have extended years of mediocrity for reasons like the one I just mentioned, even if it lands us with a roster perceived to have a 2nd rd cap or all the other arbitrary labels given to teams. Look at the pacers now, it wasn’t long ago that everybody thought this team would be a tough 1st rd exit. Now its back to back ECFs. I think if the raptors have some internal growth we can grow a program in a similar way.

[Tripod]

It's the exact same criticism of the early days of Lowry Derozan in a similar situation.

Crazy isn't it the similarities. Masai went after BI for a few reasons:

He saw an under valued starter who could be our leading scorer and it only cost a likely late 1st+filler.

He saw Shead, Mogbo, Walter and Battle all show they were not overwhelmed in the NBA and give the Raps needed depth.

He saw Ochai take a leap with his 3pt shooting.

He saw Darko flick a switch and get the team focused on defense which could be it's calling card.

He saw great team culture evolve.

And since then he saw the team "try" and lose playing gleagurs and 10 days, benching Boucher and still win games. He saw guys like Shead and JKW step up even more as the season went on. He saw Darko's system possibly be a plug and play doing forward.

So yeah, it's not surprising that Masai realized that this "rebuild" was not going to be a slow role or a "tank for a high pick" and that having this past very good offseason, accelerated things a bit. It added young playable youth to replace KO, Brown, Boucher....and Davion.

We have 11 playable players +#9 entering the draft. We are set up for another consolidation. Not the home run type, imo, but another BI type.

[djsunyc]

It's the exact same criticism of the early days of Lowry Derozan in a similar situation.

Crazy isn't it the similarities. Masai went after BI for a few reasons:

He saw an under valued starter who could be our leading scorer and it only cost a likely late 1st+filler.

He saw Shead, Mogbo, Walter and Battle all show they were not overwhelmed in the NBA and give the Raps needed depth.

He saw Ochai take a leap with his 3pt shooting.

He saw Darko flick a switch and get the team focused on defense which could be it's calling card.

He saw great team culture evolve.

And since then he saw the team "try" and lose playing gleagurs and 10 days, benching Boucher and still win games. He saw guys like Shead and JKW step up even more as the season went on. He saw Darko's system possibly be a plug and play doing forward.

So yeah, it's not surprising that Masai realized that this "rebuild" was not going to be a slow role or a "tank for a high pick" and that having this past very good offseason, accelerated things a bit. It added young playable youth to replace KO, Brown, Boucher....and Davion.

We have 11 playable players +#9 entering the draft. We are set up for another consolidation. Not the home run type, imo, but another BI type.

we have no dead weight deals (like with bruce and ko). any deal now will require parting with talent which is why the ingram trade was such a steal.

can't wait to see masai's next deal because i agree it will be a consolidation. we have a development glut at the 2/3

[Tripod]

It's the exact same criticism of the early days of Lowry Derozan in a similar situation.

Crazy isn't it the similarities. Masai went after BI for a few reasons:

He saw an under valued starter who could be our leading scorer and it only cost a likely late 1st+filler.

He saw Shead, Mogbo, Walter and Battle all show they were not overwhelmed in the NBA and give the Raps needed depth.

He saw Ochai take a leap with his 3pt shooting.

He saw Darko flick a switch and get the team focused on defense which could be it's calling card.

He saw great team culture evolve.

And since then he saw the team "try" and lose playing gleagurs and 10 days, benching Boucher and still win games. He saw guys like Shead and JKW step up even more as the season went on. He saw Darko's system possibly be a plug and play doing forward.

So yeah, it's not surprising that Masai realized that this "rebuild" was not going to be a slow role or a "tank for a high pick" and that having this past very good offseason, accelerated things a bit. It added young playable youth to replace KO, Brown, Boucher....and Davion.

We have 11 playable players +#9 entering the draft. We are set up for another consolidation. Not the home run type, imo, but another BI type.

we have no dead weight deals (like with bruce and ko). any deal now will require parting with talent which is why the ingram trade was such a steal.

can't wait to see masai's next deal because i agree it will be a consolidation. we have a development glut at the 2/3

Yeah I have said for a bit I can see Masai doing a deal few see coming. Not the homerun swing, but another like BI...or like when we added Serge for Ross+1st....a smaller consolidation. Or maybe we just make a deal like Gradey for a future 1st where we open, minutes for others and pushes the pick back 1-2 years to use later to keep the pipeline of youth coming or in a deal.

We at least have lots of options. Let's all.hope MU has a good offseason like he did last year.

I don't think MU likes the idea of trading away picks for a decade in 1 deal.

[nikster]

People are still stuck on the notion that if Masai did it once with the Kawhi trade, he can surely do it again. Many, many people don't seem to understand the sheer luck that went into making that championship possible. I don't even mean this in any negative way, simply making an observation, but many posters really do believe we are better off with the wheel & deal route than we are in a pure tank. Well, the choice was made for us already so here's hoping they are right, eh?

Sure Kawhi was lucky at that price, but top 15 player relatively frequently become available in trade.

Meanwhile you could be a bottom 4 team for 7 straight years and only stastically expect to get the first overall pick once. The flattened lottery has made the odds so much worse. Plus Franchise players on Kawhis level only come in the top 4 of the draft once every few years, if that.

Building a contender requires luck no matter how you build. The anti tankers think it's better to be competitive and hope for a tank rather than be terrible and hope for a savior in the draft.

Elite players don't become available very often though. Since the Kawhi trade, the only other superstar to get moved has been Luka, and it was a behind-the-scenes (probably orchestrated by the NBA) trade that sent him to the Lakers with the Mavs not even contacting other teams. That's a period of seven years with no movement. And it's not like when a player becomes available, your team is guaranteed to land him (as we just saw with the aforementioned Luka trade). The teams with the best chance to land Giannis now are OKC, Houston, and SAS, three teams that traded their stars for draft picks and tanked for years to accumulate even more assets.

The odds of a player like Kawhi (final year of his contract, disgruntled, and still in his prime) becoming available, and available for relatively cheap, are infinitesimally small. The chances of that player leading you to a title in that short 1-year window you have with him are even smaller. Our 2018-19 season was the perfect storm. It's only ever happened once in the history of the NBA.

Since the Kawhi trade Wemby and maybe Ant are the only players drafted that look like they're on that level of superstar. KD, Harden and AD also moved in that window, and looks like Giannis is about to be. Lillard is probably close to that category as well.

Now Kawhi leaving Toronto post title was pretty unique, I'd think most ther players stay and extend that window. If you draft an elite player you need to wait several years for them to hit their prime to have a real window, need to make sure that tanking team you started out with us replaced by a playoff core at the right time etc... And you might not know you have that franchise player initially if they are a late bloomer (Kawhi, Steph). Or you might think you have a franchise player and they turn out to be a dud (Wiggins) or injury prone (Embiid, Zion).

[Raps in 4]

Sure Kawhi was lucky at that price, but top 15 player relatively frequently become available in trade.

Meanwhile you could be a bottom 4 team for 7 straight years and only stastically expect to get the first overall pick once. The flattened lottery has made the odds so much worse. Plus Franchise players on Kawhis level only come in the top 4 of the draft once every few years, if that.

Building a contender requires luck no matter how you build. The anti tankers think it's better to be competitive and hope for a tank rather than be terrible and hope for a savior in the draft.

Elite players don't become available very often though. Since the Kawhi trade, the only other superstar to get moved has been Luka, and it was a behind-the-scenes (probably orchestrated by the NBA) trade that sent him to the Lakers with the Mavs not even contacting other teams. That's a period of seven years with no movement. And it's not like when a player becomes available, your team is guaranteed to land him (as we just saw with the aforementioned Luka trade). The teams with the best chance to land Giannis now are OKC, Houston, and SAS, three teams that traded their stars for draft picks and tanked for years to accumulate even more assets.

The odds of a player like Kawhi (final year of his contract, disgruntled, and still in his prime) becoming available, and available for relatively cheap, are infinitesimally small. The chances of that player leading you to a title in that short 1-year window you have with him are even smaller. Our 2018-19 season was the perfect storm. It's only ever happened once in the history of the NBA.

Since the Kawhi trade Wemby and maybe Ant are the only players drafted that look like they're on that level of superstar. KD, Harden and AD also moved in that window, and looks like Giannis is about to be. Lillard is probably close to that category as well.

Now Kawhi leaving Toronto post title was pretty unique, I'd think most ther players stay and extend that window. If you draft an elite player you need to wait several years for them to hit their prime to have a real window, need to make sure that tanking team you started out with us replaced by a playoff core at the right time etc... And you might not know you have that franchise player initially if they are a late bloomer (Kawhi, Steph). Or you might think you have a franchise player and they turn out to be a dud (Wiggins) or injury prone (Embiid, Zion).

Old Harden, KD, AD, and Lillard are absolutely not in the same category of player as prime Kawhi.

Drafting a superstar and winning a title with him is rare, but it's much less rare than trading for a superstar and winning a title with him.

[Raptaurus]

Masai has made a habit of trying to find “value” in trading for pending free agents, who btw are not likely to be resigned by their former teams. IQ, BI, and Poetl were all acquired this way. I suppose it’s a quicker way to retool/rebuild. Will see how it pans out this year…..

[nikster]

Elite players don't become available very often though. Since the Kawhi trade, the only other superstar to get moved has been Luka, and it was a behind-the-scenes (probably orchestrated by the NBA) trade that sent him to the Lakers with the Mavs not even contacting other teams. That's a period of seven years with no movement. And it's not like when a player becomes available, your team is guaranteed to land him (as we just saw with the aforementioned Luka trade). The teams with the best chance to land Giannis now are OKC, Houston, and SAS, three teams that traded their stars for draft picks and tanked for years to accumulate even more assets.

The odds of a player like Kawhi (final year of his contract, disgruntled, and still in his prime) becoming available, and available for relatively cheap, are infinitesimally small. The chances of that player leading you to a title in that short 1-year window you have with him are even smaller. Our 2018-19 season was the perfect storm. It's only ever happened once in the history of the NBA.

Since the Kawhi trade Wemby and maybe Ant are the only players drafted that look like they're on that level of superstar. KD, Harden and AD also moved in that window, and looks like Giannis is about to be. Lillard is probably close to that category as well.

Now Kawhi leaving Toronto post title was pretty unique, I'd think most ther players stay and extend that window. If you draft an elite player you need to wait several years for them to hit their prime to have a real window, need to make sure that tanking team you started out with us replaced by a playoff core at the right time etc... And you might not know you have that franchise player initially if they are a late bloomer (Kawhi, Steph). Or you might think you have a franchise player and they turn out to be a dud (Wiggins) or injury prone (Embiid, Zion).

Old Harden, KD, AD, and Lillard are absolutely not in the same category of player as prime Kawhi.

Drafting a superstar and winning a title with him is rare, but it's much less rare than trading for a superstar and winning a title with him.

Harden just finished 4 straight years of being top 4 in MVP and led the only team who challenged the KD Warriors. "Old KD" outplayed and almost single handedly beat Giannis, averaging 35/10/5 in a series where washed Blake Griffin, Joe Harris and Bruce Brown led the Nets in minutes played. AD was a perennial DPOY candidate who finished top 3 in MVP voting and dropped 30/13 in the post season.

If those guys aren't superstars, that means you could have been a bottom 3 team every single year since the Kawhi trade and your only hope would have been a 1 in 7 shot in Wemby.

[Scase]

Masai has made a habit of trying to find “value” in trading for pending free agents, who btw are not likely to be resigned by their former teams. IQ, BI, and Poetl were all acquired this way. I suppose it’s a quicker way to retool/rebuild. Will see how it pans out this year…..

Alternatively, he's acquiring players that other teams don't want/value for a reason.

[Pointgod]

Masai has made a habit of trying to find “value” in trading for pending free agents, who btw are not likely to be resigned by their former teams. IQ, BI, and Poetl were all acquired this way. I suppose it’s a quicker way to retool/rebuild. Will see how it pans out this year…..

Alternatively, he's acquiring players that other teams don't want/value for a reason.

The thing is that this strategy could make sense if you’re already a contender or championship calibre team but it makes little sense if you’re a lottery team.

[Tripod]

It will all make sense when we are the 5 seed next year with lots of playable youth and all our picks.

[nikster]

It will all make sense when we are the 5 seed next year with lots of playable youth and all our picks.

I agree that's a good spot to be in but a lot of people here won't see it that way

[Tripod]

It will all make sense when we are the 5 seed next year with lots of playable youth and all our picks.

I agree that's a good spot to be in but a lot of people here won't see it that way

It's a stepping stone.

We all know we are better than our record this year and are adding BI, #9, and another offseason of development for a whole slew of kids.

And I still think Masai makes a sneak good trade...not a huge one...but another one of good value.