Roster is a mess - missed draft picks are part of reason

[canada_dry]

Is there a FA that Miami has secured over the years? We traded our starters for younger starters and kept our pick, Indy run lasted a yr and they couldn't keep up with their financial commitments. It's not a given that core would've returned, even with a healthy Hali.

IQ and prospect + picks gets us a disgruntled star in the near future is a guess
Jakob + picks may get us a different 5

I’ve heard this “we’re going to trade for a star” argument from the anti-tank brigade before but it always ignores a variety of factors.

1) by most reports the IQ contract is seen as negative value around the league. It also runs for another 3 years. I’d say it’s questionable if any team wants to take on IQ on his current contract (though maybe I’m wrong here)

2) Where I am sure I am not wrong: if a disgruntled star becomes available we are way down the list of trade partners because a) we aren’t a destination franchise and b) we don’t have the assets to compete with other teams. Consider the asset bases of teams like HOU or ATL or OKC or SAS or even a team like UTA. The market has shifted and the price has gone way up. We haven’t been accumulating the necessary assets to make a move for a star.

The days of the Kawhi trade are over. Mikal Bridges is going for 4 1sts. If a star becomes available there are multiple other teams who can out bid us and this doesn’t even factor in that stars usually have some say in where they want to go (and it’s not Toronto).

If part of the front office’s plan is to try and trade for a star they have done a poor job in setting us up for success given what we know about the trade market for stars.

Could not have said it better myself....If you can't win on the trade market in todays NBA and you are not really a destination to these Star players what are we really doing here? Trying to build a great team with draft picks in the 10-15th area of the draft year after year and pray we find the rare "Giannis, Jokic" type of guy that falls to us.

I think the frustrating part to the fans that think like you vs the other fans that don't even wanna attempt the way fans like me and you think is that we have already been trying what them other fans have liked doing for years now....It has been a total failure so far in the grand scheme of things....

We get in the conversation to make a trade sure but are we ever the first option or the team that has the best "Package" ....We never are and we never end up with the guy we are rumored to be after....If you have been doing this strategy for so many years with not much results it gets tiring after a while.

Yeah we are only a few games into the season so we have no idea what the season fully has in store for us but the smart Fans know this team is not doing anything special this year because of so many areas that they lack as a team and we all seen what it takes to be an actual competitive team and we all know unless you are delusional that this team does not have it...Talented yes and we have a few fun players but might not even win you a playoff series if we can even get there.

If we have been trying to build in the middle and we can't see the product on the court get better year after year i think its time to try something new.....The expression "Whats not broke, Don't fix it" Well we are basically doing "Its Broke, So Don't fix it because that way it can't break again" strat and its getting us no where really....Basically walking in sinking sand year after year.

That's just not true. Look throughout the middle of the draft or late lottery. Theres always value there. Not just the rare giannis/jokic.

Lets start from Giannis draft in 2013

2013: giannis 15th
2014: lavine 13th
2015: turner 11th booker 13th
2016: sabonis 11th pascal 27th
2017: mitchell 13th bam 14th
2018: shai 11th 14th MPJ
2019: herro 13th
2020: hali 12th

Do i need to keep going? Because i could...

Theres ALWAYS talent there to be had. The question is have we been acquiring that talent with our scouting and drafting?

If we're gonna build from the middle then thats a non negotiable. But i don't think we necessarily have, even though the jury is still out.


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[everdiso]

#7 117.3 off rating
#17 114.8 def rating
#14 +2.4 net rating

#6 120.5 pts for
#18 118.0 pts against
#13 +2.5 pts diff

Given that this is basically an entirely new team (barely even one trio of starters has played signficant mintues with each other, let alone all 5, and brand new #6 and #7 men to boot), and given the tough schedule to start the year, gotta say this is pretty damn good, and should be expected to improve.

The roster is far from perfect, but it's clearly nothing close to a "mess". 5 good to very good starters, and what's looking like a very promising bench now too.

[bluerap23]

the narrative that the roster is a mess just isn't true any more. We have a good balance of guards, wings, big forwards. Our only deficiency is a backup rim protector that wouldn't get any minutes anyway because they are going with Sandro as stretch 5 (and for good reason). The only issue is that we have too many "2 guards". Hopefully we can trade one for a backup rim protector, but it isn't absolutely necessary. We are currently 700k into the tax so I expect the priority being a deal that cuts that amount. ideally they trade Ochai for a 5 that makes around 5 million.

[anotherhomer]

the narrative that the roster is a mess just isn't true any more. We have a good balance of guards, wings, big forwards. Our only deficiency is a backup rim protector that wouldn't get any minutes anyway because they are going with Sandro as stretch 5 (and for good reason). The only issue is that we have too many "2 guards". Hopefully we can trade one for a backup rim protector, but it isn't absolutely necessary. We are currently 700k into the tax so I expect the priority being a deal that cuts that amount. ideally they trade Ochai for a 5 that makes around 5 million.

if RJ and Barnes maintain 35% 3-pt shooting, and IQ shooting return to norm, then the roster isn't too bad

[everdiso]

the narrative that the roster is a mess just isn't true any more. We have a good balance of guards, wings, big forwards. Our only deficiency is a backup rim protector that wouldn't get any minutes anyway because they are going with Sandro as stretch 5 (and for good reason). The only issue is that we have too many "2 guards". Hopefully we can trade one for a backup rim protector, but it isn't absolutely necessary. We are currently 700k into the tax so I expect the priority being a deal that cuts that amount. ideally they trade Ochai for a 5 that makes around 5 million.

if RJ and Barnes maintain 35% 3-pt shooting, and IQ shooting return to norm, then the roster isn't too bad

I mean the only actual question mark there is Scottie.

[Thaddy]

Trading for Thad and Jakob and throwing away picks set the team back for years

Those two moves in particular set the team back 10-15 years. It sounds ridiculous, I know, but I believe it's that bad.

The worst part is that I think both were orchestrated by our current and recently extended GM.

I say 100 years.

Not getting situational big Walker Kessler is demoralizing for this franchise. We might never recover.

I don't think it's wrong. We should have blew it up the second we got Scottie. We would have gotten back 3 good prospects and picks for OG, Siakam and Fred. Then we could have tanked for Wemby, Miller, one of the Thompsons, Wallace, Coulibaly, Lively, etc. Another year in the lottery and we could have gotten Castle, Clingan, Risacher, Sarr, etc.

Imagine:

Clingan
Barnes
Ingram
Thompson / (FVV trade)
(Siakam trade) / (OG trade)

We'd also have a **** load of cap so bringing in Ingram and other talent would have been very possible.

[Los_29]

Those two moves in particular set the team back 10-15 years. It sounds ridiculous, I know, but I believe it's that bad.

The worst part is that I think both were orchestrated by our current and recently extended GM.

I say 100 years.

Not getting situational big Walker Kessler is demoralizing for this franchise. We might never recover.

I don't think it's wrong. We should have blew it up the second we got Scottie. We would have gotten back 3 good prospects and picks for OG, Siakam and Fred. Then we could have tanked for Wemby, Miller, one of the Thompsons, Wallace, Coulibaly, Lively, etc. Another year in the lottery and we could have gotten Castle, Clingan, Risacher, Sarr, etc.

Imagine:

Clingan
Barnes
Ingram
Thompson / (FVV trade)
(Siakam trade) / (OG trade)

We'd also have a **** load of cap so bringing in Ingram and other talent would have been very possible.

That’s the same team we have now, if not worse. lol.

[Thaddy]

I say 100 years.

Not getting situational big Walker Kessler is demoralizing for this franchise. We might never recover.

I don't think it's wrong. We should have blew it up the second we got Scottie. We would have gotten back 3 good prospects and picks for OG, Siakam and Fred. Then we could have tanked for Wemby, Miller, one of the Thompsons, Wallace, Coulibaly, Lively, etc. Another year in the lottery and we could have gotten Castle, Clingan, Risacher, Sarr, etc.

Imagine:

Clingan
Barnes
Ingram
Thompson / (FVV trade)
(Siakam trade) / (OG trade)

We'd also have a **** load of cap so bringing in Ingram and other talent would have been very possible.

That’s the same team we have now, if not worse. lol.

I'm pretty happy with where we are now but that team would be better. There would be a larger asset base to work with to improve the overall talent on the team. I would guess we'd have more draft picks too. OG was reportedly worth 4 1st round picks but we got just 1 and RJ+IQ. FVV we got nothing, and Siakam kind of turned into Ingram but we could have got him through FA anyway.

[Los_29]

I don't think it's wrong. We should have blew it up the second we got Scottie. We would have gotten back 3 good prospects and picks for OG, Siakam and Fred. Then we could have tanked for Wemby, Miller, one of the Thompsons, Wallace, Coulibaly, Lively, etc. Another year in the lottery and we could have gotten Castle, Clingan, Risacher, Sarr, etc.

Imagine:

Clingan
Barnes
Ingram
Thompson / (FVV trade)
(Siakam trade) / (OG trade)

We'd also have a **** load of cap so bringing in Ingram and other talent would have been very possible.

That’s the same team we have now, if not worse. lol.

I'm pretty happy with where we are now but that team would be better. There would be a larger asset base to work with to improve the overall talent on the team. I would guess we'd have more draft picks too. OG was reportedly worth 4 1st round picks but we got just 1 and RJ+IQ. FVV we got nothing, and Siakam kind of turned into Ingram but we could have got him through FA anyway.

None of that is correct. The picks we were offered from Memphis were very low quality. We would’ve gotten no assets back. No, we couldn’t have gotten BI in free agency.

But I don’t blame you, it’s fun to play the “what could’ve been” game. But the fact, we would’ve been worse off or the same spot if we traded these guys earlier is quite telling.

[kingz3290]

People like Pensare are on record saying they'd rather have Gradey Dick than Keyonte George. I was screaming draft Keyonte. IQ can't even do what Keyonte George does in terms of going down hill and putting pressure on the defense, something that is critical with players like BI & Scottie. Would've saved you from giving $32M to Quickly just for him to do dribble hand offs all day. Bobby really failing us man.

Watch on YouTube

[refshateRaps]

This team is as good as it gets without a superstar. Break it up and enjoy more years of complete suckage

Id like to see them grow for a couple years tbh and upgrade centre if possible. No draft pick will move the needle unless they have true alpha superstar potential. Our starters are as solid as it gets all around without a big dawg and a bench improvement with 'X' player instead of "Y" only moves the needle very little in either direction in the big picture.

[anotherhomer]

This team is as good as it gets without a superstar. Break it up and enjoy more years of complete suckage

Id like to see them grow for a couple years tbh and upgrade centre if possible. No draft pick will move the needle unless they have true alpha superstar potential. Our starters are as solid as it gets all around without a big dawg and a bench improvement with 'X' player instead of "Y" only moves the needle very little in either direction in the big picture.

our team's simply a mess.

Tonight, showed how bad Gradey Dick, Ochai and JaKobe walters are. I'm not ready to write them off but team should be prepared to find other guys to fill in. They showed us they simply not an answer. Ditto Mogbo who's in the G-league or DNP.

At least they find good players in Shead, CMB who can contribute

Still we need to find more gems and players who can contribute.

[WiggOuts]

I disagree that this team is a mess, that is such an overstatement. Theyve actually completed this roster more than any recent iteration. Yes there are some holes but nothing that isn't fixable with the right trade. Its obvious what they need, they're probably just waiting for the right deal to come along.

We have a lot of young players some of which we drafted with the hope of them contributing right away but others with expected growing pains. People need to relax and understand that guys like Gradey, Walter and CMB are going to have moments where they don't look great. We also draft BPA so players like Mogbo end up becoming redundant when u get a guy like CMB. You have to respect the process. If history has taught us anything is that our FO doesn't make reactionary moves, they're patient. Hopefully Bobby has learned from Masais over patience and can better identify when the time is right

[OhCanada]

Trading for Thad and Jakob and throwing away picks set the team back for years

Those two moves in particular set the team back 10-15 years. It sounds ridiculous, I know, but I believe it's that bad.

The worst part is that I think both were orchestrated by our current and recently extended GM.

Your just being dramatic. 15 years ago Chris Bosh played for Toronto. Thats a long time alot can change.

[Shakril]

I say 100 years.

Not getting situational big Walker Kessler is demoralizing for this franchise. We might never recover.

I don't think it's wrong. We should have blew it up the second we got Scottie. We would have gotten back 3 good prospects and picks for OG, Siakam and Fred. Then we could have tanked for Wemby, Miller, one of the Thompsons, Wallace, Coulibaly, Lively, etc. Another year in the lottery and we could have gotten Castle, Clingan, Risacher, Sarr, etc.

Imagine:

Clingan
Barnes
Ingram
Thompson / (FVV trade)
(Siakam trade) / (OG trade)

We'd also have a **** load of cap so bringing in Ingram and other talent would have been very possible.

That’s the same team we have now, if not worse. lol.

It is worse. Also how can you have ingram, without the siakam trade resolved?

Many here think, that building a team is easy. Just call a team and a trade is done.

[Thaddy]

I don't think it's wrong. We should have blew it up the second we got Scottie. We would have gotten back 3 good prospects and picks for OG, Siakam and Fred. Then we could have tanked for Wemby, Miller, one of the Thompsons, Wallace, Coulibaly, Lively, etc. Another year in the lottery and we could have gotten Castle, Clingan, Risacher, Sarr, etc.

Imagine:

Clingan
Barnes
Ingram
Thompson / (FVV trade)
(Siakam trade) / (OG trade)

We'd also have a **** load of cap so bringing in Ingram and other talent would have been very possible.

That’s the same team we have now, if not worse. lol.

It is worse. Also how can you have ingram, without the siakam trade resolved?

Many here think, that building a team is easy. Just call a team and a trade is done.

We could overpay him as a UFA? We'd have several rookie contracts to work with.

[vini_vidi_vici]

#7 117.3 off rating
#17 114.8 def rating
#14 +2.4 net rating

#6 120.5 pts for
#18 118.0 pts against
#13 +2.5 pts diff

Given that this is basically an entirely new team (barely even one trio of starters has played signficant mintues with each other, let alone all 5, and brand new #6 and #7 men to boot), and given the tough schedule to start the year, gotta say this is pretty damn good, and should be expected to improve.

The roster is far from perfect, but it's clearly nothing close to a "mess". 5 good to very good starters, and what's looking like a very promising bench now too.

5th youngest roster (taking out Temple) too.

Im not sure why the expectations are so high in yr 1 of "competing".

[Spates]

#7 117.3 off rating
#17 114.8 def rating
#14 +2.4 net rating

#6 120.5 pts for
#18 118.0 pts against
#13 +2.5 pts diff

Given that this is basically an entirely new team (barely even one trio of starters has played signficant mintues with each other, let alone all 5, and brand new #6 and #7 men to boot), and given the tough schedule to start the year, gotta say this is pretty damn good, and should be expected to improve.

The roster is far from perfect, but it's clearly nothing close to a "mess". 5 good to very good starters, and what's looking like a very promising bench now too.

5th youngest roster (taking out Temple) too.

Im not sure why the expectations are so high in yr 1 of "competing".

While I think we're of a similar perspective, I think the argument you see is the roster cost.

[brownbobcat]

I disagree that this team is a mess, that is such an overstatement. Theyve actually completed this roster more than any recent iteration. Yes there are some holes but nothing that isn't fixable with the right trade. Its obvious what they need, they're probably just waiting for the right deal to come along.

We have a lot of young players some of which we drafted with the hope of them contributing right away but others with expected growing pains. People need to relax and understand that guys like Gradey, Walter and CMB are going to have moments where they don't look great. We also draft BPA so players like Mogbo end up becoming redundant when u get a guy like CMB. You have to respect the process. If history has taught us anything is that our FO doesn't make reactionary moves, they're patient. Hopefully Bobby has learned from Masais over patience and can better identify when the time is right

It's not a mess in the sense of being a very bad team, but the upside doesn't look great.

And there probably isn't a deal that fixes the holes because what they need is elite talent, not a backup C.

[WiggOuts]

I disagree that this team is a mess, that is such an overstatement. Theyve actually completed this roster more than any recent iteration. Yes there are some holes but nothing that isn't fixable with the right trade. Its obvious what they need, they're probably just waiting for the right deal to come along.

We have a lot of young players some of which we drafted with the hope of them contributing right away but others with expected growing pains. People need to relax and understand that guys like Gradey, Walter and CMB are going to have moments where they don't look great. We also draft BPA so players like Mogbo end up becoming redundant when u get a guy like CMB. You have to respect the process. If history has taught us anything is that our FO doesn't make reactionary moves, they're patient. Hopefully Bobby has learned from Masais over patience and can better identify when the time is right

It's not a mess in the sense of being a very bad team, but the upside doesn't look great.

And there probably isn't a deal that fixes the holes because what they need is elite talent, not a backup C.

Well they tried to get that elite talent in the draft but the NBA isnt giving the Raptors those types of players. It doesnt look like ownership is willing to tank long enough to fully rebuild so our avenue is simple, we develop what we can and buy low on guys looking to rejuvenate their careers, its the only thing that has worked for this franchise

A lot of people were saying the same thing about our upside not looking great not long before we traded for Kawhi. Things can change very fast