Since Barrett’s injury Raptors offensive rating has plummeted to last in the league

[PushDaRock]

Yeah, some first round picks would need to be involved.

We wouldn’t get anything of value in a straight up swap.

Wait...I am confused.

You say we won't get anything of value in a straight up swap. But then also say we should be signing him now vs later because he will demand more money.

If he has no value now, what value will he have on a bigger, longer contract? Seems like even more negative, right? So why rush into that?

Oh I’m not saying that for myself. I don’t care what they do with RJ.

I’m saying if a team believes in a player, they extend him as soon as possible to avoid any headaches or what ifs.

If we continue to look like a bottom 5 team without RJ, RJ and his agent can just say “y’all were going to wait until my contract year to offer me an extension? I’ll just wait until FA hits and have the full leverage”

That’s just me thinking what I’d do if I was a FO or in RJ’s camp. Me personally? I’d use him, IQ or Ingram in a consolidation trade to get an upgrade as soon as possible.

In this market, only legit All-Stars and Superstars have that sort of leverage. Teams aren't handing out money in Free Agency anymore when most don't even have any cap space at all.

[Tripod]

Yeah, some first round picks would need to be involved.

We wouldn’t get anything of value in a straight up swap.

Wait...I am confused.

You say we won't get anything of value in a straight up swap. But then also say we should be signing him now vs later because he will demand more money.

If he has no value now, what value will he have on a bigger, longer contract? Seems like even more negative, right? So why rush into that?

Oh I’m not saying that for myself. I don’t care what they do with RJ.

I’m saying if a team believes in a player, they extend him as soon as possible to avoid any headaches or what ifs.

If we continue to look like a bottom 5 team without RJ, RJ and his agent can just say “y’all were going to wait until my contract year to offer me an extension? I’ll just wait until FA hits and have the full leverage”

That’s just me thinking what I’d do if I was a FO or in RJ’s camp. Me personally? I’d use him, IQ or Ingram in a consolidation trade to get an upgrade as soon as possible.

What if they believe in him but not at more money, and RJ's agent wants a raise?

What if they have seen the market change?

They can see RJ and value what he brings as a player but also believe he can be replaced externally at a cheaper price.

Or believe that RJ might look elsewhere and the Raps are still offering the most.

And yes, the FVV situation could occur. But people forget FVV was a free agent before and looked around then signed back with Raps.

Time will tell what we do

[HumbleRen]

Wait...I am confused.

You say we won't get anything of value in a straight up swap. But then also say we should be signing him now vs later because he will demand more money.

If he has no value now, what value will he have on a bigger, longer contract? Seems like even more negative, right? So why rush into that?

Oh I’m not saying that for myself. I don’t care what they do with RJ.

I’m saying if a team believes in a player, they extend him as soon as possible to avoid any headaches or what ifs.

If we continue to look like a bottom 5 team without RJ, RJ and his agent can just say “y’all were going to wait until my contract year to offer me an extension? I’ll just wait until FA hits and have the full leverage”

That’s just me thinking what I’d do if I was a FO or in RJ’s camp. Me personally? I’d use him, IQ or Ingram in a consolidation trade to get an upgrade as soon as possible.

In this market, only legit All-Stars and Superstars have that sort of leverage. Teams aren't handing out money in Free Agency anymore when most don't even have any cap space at all.

I disagree. Poeltl had that leverage on us. BI had 0 market at all and we still paid a premium for him.

IQ had no bidders, we still paid him a premium. GTJ had 0 market at all, we still paid him a premium. RJ is going to have even more leverage than all of those guys cause he can point to this sample of us being ass without him, he can say he improved in every single way since coming here. What leverage does the FO have in this situation?

[PushDaRock]

Oh I’m not saying that for myself. I don’t care what they do with RJ.

I’m saying if a team believes in a player, they extend him as soon as possible to avoid any headaches or what ifs.

If we continue to look like a bottom 5 team without RJ, RJ and his agent can just say “y’all were going to wait until my contract year to offer me an extension? I’ll just wait until FA hits and have the full leverage”

That’s just me thinking what I’d do if I was a FO or in RJ’s camp. Me personally? I’d use him, IQ or Ingram in a consolidation trade to get an upgrade as soon as possible.

In this market, only legit All-Stars and Superstars have that sort of leverage. Teams aren't handing out money in Free Agency anymore when most don't even have any cap space at all.

I disagree. Poeltl had that leverage on us. BI had 0 market at all and we still paid a premium for him.

IQ had no bidders, we still paid him a premium. GTJ had 0 market at all, we still paid him a premium. RJ is going to have even more leverage than all of those guys cause he can point to this sample of us being ass without him, he can say he improved in every single way since coming here. What leverage does the FO have in this situation?

Jak had a player option we wanted him to pick up, that was working together to get a deal done for both sides. You think they overpaid, but the FO obviously doesn't.

Ingram probably doesn't even agree to come here without the idea that we would meet his salary demands. If he were a FA, he likely doesn't get that deal but we wouldn't have had a chance to get him either. They locked him in at a number they could live with and on a shorter term deal.

IQ's deal was in line with the market at the time. If it's an overpay, it's a very slight one. Suggs got a 5 year 150.5m deal with much less production.

RJ's team can say whatever they want, but the market is what it is. His comparable players were not getting paid this summer.

[HumbleRen]

In this market, only legit All-Stars and Superstars have that sort of leverage. Teams aren't handing out money in Free Agency anymore when most don't even have any cap space at all.

I disagree. Poeltl had that leverage on us. BI had 0 market at all and we still paid a premium for him.

IQ had no bidders, we still paid him a premium. GTJ had 0 market at all, we still paid him a premium. RJ is going to have even more leverage than all of those guys cause he can point to this sample of us being ass without him, he can say he improved in every single way since coming here. What leverage does the FO have in this situation?

Jak had a player option we wanted him to pick up, that was working together to get a deal done for both sides. You think they overpaid, but the FO obviously doesn't.

Ingram probably doesn't even agree to come here without the idea that we would meet his salary demands. If he were a FA, he likely doesn't get that deal but we wouldn't have had a chance to get him either. They locked him in at a number they could live with and on a shorter term deal.

IQ's deal was in line with the market at the time. If it's an overpay, it's a very slight one. Suggs got a 5 year 150.5m deal with much less production.

RJ's team can say whatever they want, but the market is what it is. His comparable players were not getting paid this summer.

Suggs is a much better player though lol. IQ did nothing to show that he earned that contract outside of artificially boosting his numbers in meaningless games just like Poeltl did when we traded for him.

Either way, we have a habit of paying guys more than what they’re worth, so I don’t have your optimism that we’ll suddenly sign RJ to a fair deal lol.

[PushDaRock]

I disagree. Poeltl had that leverage on us. BI had 0 market at all and we still paid a premium for him.

IQ had no bidders, we still paid him a premium. GTJ had 0 market at all, we still paid him a premium. RJ is going to have even more leverage than all of those guys cause he can point to this sample of us being ass without him, he can say he improved in every single way since coming here. What leverage does the FO have in this situation?

Jak had a player option we wanted him to pick up, that was working together to get a deal done for both sides. You think they overpaid, but the FO obviously doesn't.

Ingram probably doesn't even agree to come here without the idea that we would meet his salary demands. If he were a FA, he likely doesn't get that deal but we wouldn't have had a chance to get him either. They locked him in at a number they could live with and on a shorter term deal.

IQ's deal was in line with the market at the time. If it's an overpay, it's a very slight one. Suggs got a 5 year 150.5m deal with much less production.

RJ's team can say whatever they want, but the market is what it is. His comparable players were not getting paid this summer.

Suggs is a much better player though lol. IQ did nothing to show that he earned that contract outside of artificially boosting his numbers in meaningless games just like Poeltl did when we traded for him.

Either way, we have a habit of paying guys more than what they’re worth, so I don’t have your optimism that we’ll suddenly sign RJ to a fair deal lol.

You think Suggs' first 3 seasons in the league were much better than IQ's first 4 seasons?

[niQ]

Our offense is in shambles without RJ.

[tsherkin]

Our offense is in shambles without RJ.

It's also in shambles with BI isolating too much, no bench production and us routinely not having enough of Poeltl. But yeah, missing RJ has sucked BIIIIIIG time.

And I think we're seeing it not just in terms of how much scoring (and efficient scoring) he was doing, but in terms of his participation in moving the ball as well (both actively and with his off-ball movement encouraging the pass).

[Indeed]

Jak had a player option we wanted him to pick up, that was working together to get a deal done for both sides. You think they overpaid, but the FO obviously doesn't.

Ingram probably doesn't even agree to come here without the idea that we would meet his salary demands. If he were a FA, he likely doesn't get that deal but we wouldn't have had a chance to get him either. They locked him in at a number they could live with and on a shorter term deal.

IQ's deal was in line with the market at the time. If it's an overpay, it's a very slight one. Suggs got a 5 year 150.5m deal with much less production.

RJ's team can say whatever they want, but the market is what it is. His comparable players were not getting paid this summer.

Suggs is a much better player though lol. IQ did nothing to show that he earned that contract outside of artificially boosting his numbers in meaningless games just like Poeltl did when we traded for him.

Either way, we have a habit of paying guys more than what they’re worth, so I don’t have your optimism that we’ll suddenly sign RJ to a fair deal lol.

You think Suggs' first 3 seasons in the league were much better than IQ's first 4 seasons?

Their 3rd year were about the same, while Quickley is more offensive, and Suggs being more defensive.
Contract wise, they are similar, while Suggs is decreasing and an extra player option that is in 26.5m.

However, we need a lockdown defender and a good 3 point shooter to compensate the lineup of Poeltl-Barnes-Ingram-Barrett, so regardless, neither Suggs and Quickley are enough, and we are already above the tax for upgrade.

[Indeed]

Wait...I am confused.

You say we won't get anything of value in a straight up swap. But then also say we should be signing him now vs later because he will demand more money.

If he has no value now, what value will he have on a bigger, longer contract? Seems like even more negative, right? So why rush into that?

Oh I’m not saying that for myself. I don’t care what they do with RJ.

I’m saying if a team believes in a player, they extend him as soon as possible to avoid any headaches or what ifs.

If we continue to look like a bottom 5 team without RJ, RJ and his agent can just say “y’all were going to wait until my contract year to offer me an extension? I’ll just wait until FA hits and have the full leverage”

That’s just me thinking what I’d do if I was a FO or in RJ’s camp. Me personally? I’d use him, IQ or Ingram in a consolidation trade to get an upgrade as soon as possible.

In this market, only legit All-Stars and Superstars have that sort of leverage. Teams aren't handing out money in Free Agency anymore when most don't even have any cap space at all.

I think we learned our experience with Lowry and VanVleet, teams can easily get cap space by trading their picks, which happened often.

As for the contract of Quickley, he was clearly overpaid even back then, and media said agents are using his salary for their players as benchmark, which is an indication of overpaid. The original expectation was Quickley being a lockdown with point guard duty, he is neither a lockdown nor good at being a point guard.

"The Immanuel Quickley contract...has totally screwed up restricted free agency. That's where agents are looking at, like the benchmark. Certainly, Josh Giddey's like, 'I want that contract there.' That number has screwed up a lot of things."
ESPN's Bobby Marks

https://pippenainteasy.com/raptors-absolutely-screwed-bulls-josh-giddey-restricted-free-agency

[Jerry Lucas]

The absence of RJ has been felt for sure, but to me RJ's importance to the team is becoming extremely overrated by the fanbase just because he's the one who's been out.

If any of the other 4 starters were out for a period of time like RJ is, IMO every single one of their absences would be felt more than RJ.

[tsherkin]

The absence of RJ has been felt for sure, but to me RJ's importance to the team is becoming extremely overrated by the fanbase just because he's the one who's been out.

If any of the other 4 starters were out for a period of time like RJ is, IMO every single one of their absences would be felt more than RJ.

That has been the tone of the latter half of the discussion. RJ's missing and that's a problem, but Darko is letting BI shoot too much and isolate too frequently. We don't have consistent, quality production from the bench, which is exacerbated when we have to move one of those guys into a starting position. We struggle on the boards. We don't have a backup center. Things work for us when we're healthy, but the roster has a lot of holes and we're starting to face better competition, and so those holes are showing through.

It is what it is. We aren't a top-end team, regardless of our early success, so this is just part and parcel of our season. We'll feel the ebb and flow pretty strongly all year because we're around a .500 team overall when you factor in health. A little better, hopefully. That's how such seasons go.

When we won 48 games in the 2022 season, we still had losing streaks. We had four different losing streaks of 3 games that year. In 2023, when we won 41 games, we had four different losing streaks of 3+ games, one of which was 6 games long.

We just need to be more patient as a fanbase, and have a clearer idea of what this team is and where it is going, you know? A bunch of folks got excited with the early win streak, but we were going to have health issues, we always had depth issues, we always had some structural weaknesses, etc, etc.

[KingSebastian]

Way too much disrespect towards RJ. I truly believe the NY media has ruined the perception. He's been great over his career, not the flashy player people love to watch, but the production speaks for itself.

If you compare other "stars" in his class, none of them get flamed nearly as much as RJ for not being good defenders, simply because their offensive games are more aesthetically pleasing.




Put some respect on his name. He's a major reason our offense is trash right now. BI would chuck less, Barnes stock to his role, his drives open up shooting for others.

The numbers match the eye test. We really need him back asap.

https://ibb.co/yc8Xtv4M
https://ibb.co/yxgyNd0


Sent from my Pixel 9 Pro Fold using RealGM mobile app

[HumbleRen]

Way too much disrespect towards RJ. I truly believe the NY media has ruined the perception. He's been great over his career, not the flashy player people love to watch, but the production speaks for itself.

If you compare other "stars" in his class, none of them get flamed nearly as much as RJ for not being good defenders, simply because their offensive games are more aesthetically pleasing.




Put some respect on his name. He's a major reason our offense is trash right now. BI would chuck less, Barnes stock to his role, his drives open up shooting for others.

The numbers match the eye test. We really need him back asap.

https://ibb.co/yc8Xtv4M
https://ibb.co/yxgyNd0


Sent from my Pixel 9 Pro Fold using RealGM mobile app

NYC media didn’t make him be one of the least efficient scorers in the league. RJ was just simply a disappointment for them.

We put him in a much better role to fit his skillset better. An off ball slasher, not an on ball creator like the Knicks hoped he could be.

[KingSebastian]

Way too much disrespect towards RJ. I truly believe the NY media has ruined the perception. He's been great over his career, not the flashy player people love to watch, but the production speaks for itself.

If you compare other "stars" in his class, none of them get flamed nearly as much as RJ for not being good defenders, simply because their offensive games are more aesthetically pleasing.




Put some respect on his name. He's a major reason our offense is trash right now. BI would chuck less, Barnes stock to his role, his drives open up shooting for others.

The numbers match the eye test. We really need him back asap.

https://ibb.co/yc8Xtv4M
https://ibb.co/yxgyNd0


Sent from my Pixel 9 Pro Fold using RealGM mobile app

NYC media didn’t make him be one of the least efficient scorers in the league. RJ was just simply a disappointment for them.

We put him in a much better role to fit his skillset better. An off ball slasher, not an on ball creator like the Knicks hoped he could be.

Almost every player enters the league with the hopes of improving/developing their game...NY media expected RJ to be a finished product and to your point, the Knicks weren't using him correctly.
Also, he's in his 7th season. Of course he's better than his Knicks days.
My point is how he is compared to his peers and the undeserved vitriol he gets.
He's with us now and he's producing, yet he's a negative asset and I keep reading he needs to be traded.

I just find it crazy.
....Don't get me wrong...if he needs to be included in a package for an upgrade, pack his bags. But to me, he's not a player I see as a problem by any means.

Sent from my Pixel 9 Pro Fold using RealGM mobile app

[HumbleRen]

Way too much disrespect towards RJ. I truly believe the NY media has ruined the perception. He's been great over his career, not the flashy player people love to watch, but the production speaks for itself.

If you compare other "stars" in his class, none of them get flamed nearly as much as RJ for not being good defenders, simply because their offensive games are more aesthetically pleasing.




Put some respect on his name. He's a major reason our offense is trash right now. BI would chuck less, Barnes stock to his role, his drives open up shooting for others.

The numbers match the eye test. We really need him back asap.

https://ibb.co/yc8Xtv4M
https://ibb.co/yxgyNd0


Sent from my Pixel 9 Pro Fold using RealGM mobile app

NYC media didn’t make him be one of the least efficient scorers in the league. RJ was just simply a disappointment for them.

We put him in a much better role to fit his skillset better. An off ball slasher, not an on ball creator like the Knicks hoped he could be.

Almost every player enters the league with the hopes of improving/developing their game...NY media expected RJ to be a finished product and to your point, the Knicks weren't using him correctly.
Also, he's in his 7th season. Of course he's better than his Knicks days.
My point is how he is compared to his peers and the undeserved vitriol he gets.
He's with us now and he's producing, yet he's a negative asset and I keep reading he needs to be traded.

I just find it crazy.
....Don't get me wrong...if he needs to be included in a package for an upgrade, pack his bags. But to me, he's not a player I see as a problem by any means.

Sent from my Pixel 9 Pro Fold using RealGM mobile app

He was the third pick. They had high hopes for him, they didn’t use him incorrectly, they were just hoping he could live up to that pick. He wasn’t able to meet that standard.

We don’t have all star expectations for him so the pressure is much less playing for us.

[tsherkin]

We don’t have all star expectations for him so the pressure is much less playing for us.

And we have the opportunity to use him in a role which suits his strengths and weaknesses more. We don't use him the same way in part BECAUSE we don't try to compel him to live up to his draft slot, I think.

[Indeed]

NYC media didn’t make him be one of the least efficient scorers in the league. RJ was just simply a disappointment for them.

We put him in a much better role to fit his skillset better. An off ball slasher, not an on ball creator like the Knicks hoped he could be.

Almost every player enters the league with the hopes of improving/developing their game...NY media expected RJ to be a finished product and to your point, the Knicks weren't using him correctly.
Also, he's in his 7th season. Of course he's better than his Knicks days.
My point is how he is compared to his peers and the undeserved vitriol he gets.
He's with us now and he's producing, yet he's a negative asset and I keep reading he needs to be traded.

I just find it crazy.
....Don't get me wrong...if he needs to be included in a package for an upgrade, pack his bags. But to me, he's not a player I see as a problem by any means.

Sent from my Pixel 9 Pro Fold using RealGM mobile app

He was the third pick. They had high hopes for him, they didn’t use him incorrectly, they were just hoping he could live up to that pick. He wasn’t able to meet that standard.

We don’t have all star expectations for him so the pressure is much less playing for us.

The Knicks use him incorrectly in terms of playing him at SF, because his ability is to use his size to get inside, which against bigger player, he is not able to and might settle for less efficient shot.

He was inefficient last year, but with Ingram actually took the best defender and the bigger defender, he is now our best mis-match player to create for the team. His improvement on the PnR in dishing assists also makes him a better player under our development, plus 3 point shooting has been better than expected.

As to the earlier point, he still has a problem, which is defense, but he is not paid like he is elite on one end and average on others. I am hoping he is at most getting Quickley contract, but over that would be overprice to me.

[NinjaBro]

This is RJ's last year as a raptor

[ATLTimekeeper]

To be honest, he has a shot to be the best Knicks' lotto pick since Patrick Ewing. Porzingis is ahead of him due to his fake contribution to Boston's recent title, and then Gallo. He got hated on by Knicks fans the same way that Canadian 'fans' try and distance themselves from him. It's because he was overhyped when he became the 'most decorated prospect since LeBron,' and he obviously failed to live up to those expectations. To be better than Porzingis and Gallo, he needs to stay healthy and continue to improve defensively. He also needs to sign a reasonable next contract that allows him to be on a winning team.