Official Bargnani Discussion Thread

[roy_jones_calderon]

Doc, one thing to consider with the Dirk comparison, is that physically, they are two very different people.

Bargs has actual center size. When Dirk was Bargs' age, he was 7'0" 245lbs. whereas Bargs is 7'1" 260lbs. and there is a major difference there, that a lot of folks would understate.

Their similarity in terms of shooting ability as well as ability to put it on the floor for the pull up is what gives rise to the comparison, as well as their basic talent levels, IMO.

While Bargs has developed out on the perimeter, like Dirk, he has had more actual change in terms of his later physical development. Bargs was Dirk when he was 18 (*:) , I only mean physically, and even then not in terms of mature muscle), and that's why I've said recently when he's been slumping that a 19 y/o Bargs would've been more valuable to us over the last while.

That's about the time he went from being 6'11" and 240lbs. (like Dirk) to something else entirely. There has been a lot of volatility associated with these types of multiple factor changes when you've got a player that is trying to find his NBA game.

That's the biggest thing we're all waiting on, regardless of whether we think he's going to be a good player or a decent/poor player...his NBA game.

Bargs himself has talked in interviews about how different playing Dirk is in the World tournaments vs. his NBA game. Some players just can't ever get there. I believe that Bargs will.

I don't know if he's going to come anywhere near to tapping the type of upside I believe he has, but at the very least and barring major injury, I believe that we'll see him become an NBA player as a Raptor.

His rebounding will have to be a big part of that maturation and ascendance. I will continue to suggest that his work and aggression in the post, even if he starts to post up in the mid-range like Dirk does ALL THE TIME, will mirror his rebounding progression.

[MikeM]

I think it's pretty simple. He's scared to foul because he'll end up on the bench in 2 minutes. That's why his help defense consists of him standing still with his hands in the air and that's why he never gets closer than 2 feet from his man.

If you watch him on offense, he is not scared of contact at all, on defense he is, because he can pick up fouls.

[Harry Palmer]

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Generally, you draft the best player in the draft, and THEN worry about "fit". Worse case scenario is that he doesn't fit, but still has tremendous value to another team who we can trade with.
We tried the 'draft for need' approach with Araujo, and look how that turned out.
And as long as Bosh's D continues to improve (which it, finally, has this year) and we can eventually score a hardnosed defensive swingman, I see no reason why he can't be a major contributor.

My counter to this was and still is that I agree you don't draft for position...unless there is little or no discrepancy in talent or even, as I felt to be the case here, the pure talent equation favored another player.

[roy_jones_calderon]

Also, I was going to try to throw Yi into the mix- haven't been able to watch him like I'd have liked to have so far this season- but he reminds me much more of Bosh than of either of these two...

[Platapie]

I know that that's the perception some in here have. I happen to completely disagree. To support my position is that our board is almost always cited by other boards as being THE unrealistic homers of the site, or at least competing with the Knicks fans.

I think that's more a product of the amount of people each board has though, and the sheer annoyance that our homers produce there. For the record, those that run around calling other teams crap and talking about how elite the Raptors are etc annoy me severely.

I do know that if you were to sample a thread about Bargs from his stellar 11/4 rookie campaign, and look at that season with objective eyes, ie 11/4, you might not think negativity was the norm.

Last year was overwhelmingly positive, agreed-- perhaps you're on to something with the bipolarism and, having expectations not met yet, the board goes the opposite direction and is annoyingly negative as opposed to being annoying positive.


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[hermster12]

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My counter to this was and still is that I agree you don't draft for position...unless there is little or no discrepancy in talent or even, as I felt to be the case here, the pure talent equation favored another player.

What about the oft-thrown around word potential? How much does that factor into your equation? (No sarcasm, genuinly interested)

[C Court]

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my problem with bargs is that he just simply wasn't the right choice for this team, even if he does develop into a good, consistent player.

a 7 footer who's main strength is perimeter shooting doesn't address the problems the raps have as a team. poor rebounding, weak interior D, no swing men that can get to the bucket themselves, not enough ft attempts, etc etc.

my 2 cents.

That's a good observation and to a degree, I agree. But to a certain extent that's 20/20 hindsight and it doesn't help the Raptors move forward.

I also agree with Doc's assessment and I have posted similar thoughts before.

Bargnani is never going to be a great rebounder or a classic C. However, he's a very good scorer, who plays decent man-to-man defence and who happens to be 7 ft tall. That's an intriuging combination.

If I'm Bryan, I try to develop Bargnani's strengths and mitigate his weaknesses by surrounding him with players who bring what Andrea can't. So far, I think Sam has tried to make Andrea into something he will never be.

Or the other option is to trade Andrea to a team who believes they can unlock his potential and raw talent, which I believe many GM's would drool over - particularly if they already have a traditional big body playing at center.

Bottomline is tired of talking over and over again about problems with Bargs. I'd much rather focus on what are our next steps.

To be very honest, if Bryan can deal away Bargnani in a trade that improves the Raptors, then I'm all for it. On the other hand, my preference would be to at least give him until the beginning of next season and see what we have at that point.

[Live Free]

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+1.

I don't mind fair criticism of Bargnani, but at what point do we say 'OK, we get it - his rebounding sucks' and move on or at least give it a rest for awhile?

+2

[Reignman]

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RJC, you've followed Bargs' development intensively. What did you think of his training program last off season? and do you think it was adequate in Bargs' case.

Also, do you think his major development will take place during the season or during next off season when he doesn't have any commitments to the NT?

I think the summer could've been much better, but I also believe NBA basketball is NBA basketball- and there's nothing like being in the fire to have to come up with solutions to problems in your game. I think that's a large part of why he was re-inserted into the starting line-up, recently.

In terms of his rebounding, specifically...

What I would want to do is talk about what I've seen Bargs do when he's been at his most effective rebounding. I know that's a bit of an oxymoron, but I do believe it can help us to frame his progression.

I believe that eventually we will see a player that able to utilize his exact weakness right now, overall defensive awareness, to put himself into positions on the floor where he can use his body to grab defensive rebounds.

There's a willingness aspect, and I think for Bargs it requires him to go inside more offensively. If he can work more offensively in the post, I think that he'll eventually start to hang back defensively and start playing around the basket more consciously.

Do I think he'll be an athletic, fast reacting athlete down there? No. I don't think he's going to be more than a competant defensive rebounder. But I do think he'll get there for a variety of reasons I've outlined before (which would require a whole other post) but the point being that there are a few simple things that could really help him remove this as a major problem for him when he's on the floor.

I believe that even if it doesn't happen for a while, there's so much expectation on him to improve this area of his game that eventually it will either make or break him, in terms of whether he's able to take his game to the next level.

It has certainly not been pretty. But I'm not as pessimistic as the lower 30% of the board, in terms of having a firm belief that he's going to be one of the NBA's worst rebounders into the future.


*edit: by the way, this debate is nothing new to me. I was having this discussion about rebounding with JG off the record long before Bargs was drafted. He was closer to the skeptic side on his defensive and rebounding ability, obviously this is a core issue with valuing Bargnani.

Thanks for the detailed response. I'm also with you in that I believe he could be an adequate rebounder, however, that is contingent on 2 things.

1)Bargs' effort, and I'm not really sure what happens behind closed doors, but I'm going to assume he's doing everything he can to get better.

2)The Raptors as an organization putting him in a position to succeed. This is where my concern lies. This organization hasn't had a great history with developing big men. Bosh is the exception. I am not impressed AT ALL with Bargs' training to date. Starting from the draft to last off season. Who is training this guy? With the information that's out there I see a sharp contrast to the way Bynum is being developed to the way Bargs is being developed. Next off season we need to get our **** together and put together a NBA Big Man program for the kid.

[Prop]

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Generally, you draft the best player in the draft, and THEN worry about "fit". Worse case scenario is that he doesn't fit, but still has tremendous value to another team who we can trade with.
We tried the 'draft for need' approach with Araujo, and look how that turned out.
And as long as Bosh's D continues to improve (which it, finally, has this year) and we can eventually score a hardnosed defensive swingman, I see no reason why he can't be a major contributor.

i see your point but it's HIGHLY debatable if he even was the best player in the draft, imo, there was comparable talent at other positions that would have been beneficial for us. bc's had a hard-on for bargs for a long long time and it may have clouded his judgement a bit on this one.

[roy_jones_calderon]

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Thanks for the detailed response. I'm also with you in that I believe he could be an adequate rebounder, however, that is contingent on 2 things.

1)Bargs' effort, and I'm not really sure what happens behind closed doors, but I'm going to assume he's doing everything he can to get better.

2)The Raptors as an organization putting him in a position to succeed. This is where my concern lies. This organization hasn't had a great history with developing big men. Bosh is the exception. I am not impressed AT ALL with Bargs' training to date. Starting from the draft to last off season. Who is training this guy? With the information that's out there I see a sharp contrast to the way Bynum is being developed to the way Bargs is being developed. Next off season we need to get our **** together and put together a NBA Big Man program for the kid.

You kow what, I can understand a lot of people questioning the first point- and I'm not sure what degree of his willingness to play on the perimeter defensively will persist into the future- therefore, this point is debatable.

I still believe that Bargs will work to improve his game and display intensity and passion. I'm actually not worried about his confidence, whatsoever.

The second point I disagree with. While I agree that a player like Bynum has had an almost ideal environment for developing post skills, Bargs came to the league with a lot of already developed perimeter skills.

I believe that Rasho was probably brought in with the idea of helping Bargs to learn the post, so I think he has a very hands on tutor in all probability in Rasho...who has played with Duncan and strikes me as a very bright guy.

You're right that a summer of working with the Raptors trainers in Toronto and maybe going to the big man camp, coupled with a full time big man coach, would be a useful way for him to spend his training time.

[hermster12]

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i see your point but it's HIGHLY debatable if he even was the best player in the draft, imo, there was comparable talent at other positions that would have been beneficial for us. bc's had a hard-on for bargs for a long long time and it may have clouded his judgement a bit on this one.

Valid. I dont know howm much Bargs' potential vs BC's affection for him balanced out. I was just wary of that "draft on need" statement. Teams have been ruined by that (see Bowie, Sam).

[tb40]

[quote="splayed"][/quote]

HaHa.

Sorry dude, I think you got the wrong guy.

Does my post sound like I'm in a huff?, I said I don't care if SS is creating these threads, my point is I think it is premature to be creating it, that's all. lol.

[TheDoctor]

Now there is something I've been thinking a little bit lately... that might be a more serious issue.

Is Bargs the kind of guy who is best in a PG dominated offense? Or would he be better developed into being a primary initiator on offense. He can be a very good catch and shoot player when he's hot - but he can do quite a bit more than that as well.

Dirk did quite well with Nash + Finley, but has taken things up a further notch once he become even more of a focal point in the offense. Especially relative to their overall slower pace than in the Nellie days.

Now I'm not saying we should be using him differently, per se - because he's still the third best option at best on this team at this point... so its a matter of how does he fit around Bosh and the PGs, not vice versa. And we have a variety of other weapons as well. But I do think he would look better, and it might benefit the team as well, if we mixed things up a little more - running more offense through Bargs than we currently do, to start games... and we HAVE had some success doing that for stretches this year.

I did notice some frustration from him early in the game yesterday as he called for the ball in some reasonable looking settings and didn't get it - there are times that Jose continues to dribble the ball and set the offense up, rather than hand off to Bargs earlier in the shot clock when he might be able to look for a pass or shot - then swing it back to Jose and achieve the same thing. But then he nicely and aggressively hit that pull up J once he finally did get the ball.

Bargs is definitively not a typical C, and in order for us to maximize his contribution to the team, I think we need to be a little more creative than we have been so far... and he needs to work harder and give a more consistent effort. And like Leo says, stop playing so vertically.

[Prop]

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my problem with bargs is that he just simply wasn't the right choice for this team, even if he does develop into a good, consistent player.

a 7 footer who's main strength is perimeter shooting doesn't address the problems the raps have as a team. poor rebounding, weak interior D, no swing men that can get to the bucket themselves, not enough ft attempts, etc etc.

my 2 cents.

That's a good observation and to a degree, I agree. But to a certain extent that's 20/20 hindsight and it doesn't help the Raptors move forward.

I also agree with Doc's assessment and I have posted similar thoughts before.

Bargnani is never going to be a great rebounder or a classic C. However, he's a very good scorer, who plays decent man-to-man defence and who happens to be 7 ft tall. That's an intriuging combination.

If I'm Bryan, I try to develop Bargnani's strengths and mitigate his weaknesses by surrounding him with players who bring what Andrea can't. So far, I think Sam has tried to make Andrea into something he will never be.

Or the other option is to trade Andrea to a team who believes they can unlock his potential and raw talent, which I believe many GM's would drool over - particularly if they already have a traditional big body playing at center.

Bottomline is tired of talking over and over again about problems with Bargs. I'd much rather focus on what are our next steps.

To be very honest, if Bryan can deal away Bargnani in a trade that improves the Raptors, then I'm all for it. On the other hand, my preference would be to at least give him until the beginning of next season and see what we have at that point.

don't get me wrong, i want bargs to succeed, either way. and i don't mean to re-hash the negatives about him. i'm sure my opinion has been stated many times before by many other people...just not in this thread, haha.

i see what you're saying about putting the right pieces around bargs to off-set what he doesn't bring to the table but imo, we should really be doing that with bosh. and i'm not so sure bargs is the best for him because he probably won't ever be a player that can lighten the load in the paint and on the glass.

bargs turning into a reliable 2nd scorer would be nice though.

[deknow]

Now there is something I've been thinking a little bit lately... that might be a more serious issue.

Is Bargs the kind of guy who is best in a PG dominated offense? Or would he be better developed into being a primary initiator on offense. He can be a very good catch and shoot player when he's hot - but he can do quite a bit more than that as well.

Dirk did quite well with Nash + Finley, but has taken things up a further notch once he become even more of a focal point in the offense. Especially relative to their overall slower pace than in the Nellie days.

Now I'm not saying we should be using him differently, per se - because he's still the third best option at best on this team at this point... so its a matter of how does he fit around Bosh and the PGs, not vice versa. And we have a variety of other weapons as well. But I do think he would look better, and it might benefit the team as well, if we mixed things up a little more - running more offense through Bargs than we currently do, to start games... and we HAVE had some success doing that for stretches this year.

I did notice some frustration from him early in the game yesterday as he called for the ball in some reasonable looking settings and didn't get it - there are times that Jose continues to dribble the ball and set the offense up, rather than hand off to Bargs earlier in the shot clock when he might be able to look for a pass or shot - then swing it back to Jose and achieve the same thing. But then he nicely and aggressively hit that pull up J once he finally did get the ball.

Bargs is definitively not a typical C, and in order for us to maximize his contribution to the team, I think we need to be a little more creative than we have been so far... and he needs to work harder and give a more consistent effort. And like Leo says, stop playing so vertically.

Suggestions?

I think if he comes off screens from the elbow he could be very effective. He just needs some space.

I also think Jose never returns the ball to him enough in pick and slip situations where Bargs is going to the basket. Jose needs to get him the ball more in those situations. The was an instance last game where the Sixers were caught in a switch and Bargs had Williams guarding him in the low post. Jose looked as though he was reluctant to go to Bargs. (He did end up missing the shot however)

Its become rare to see Bargs get the ball at the top of the key after a pick and roll Jose is not looking to get him the ball there like he did last year.

[TheDoctor]

[quote="deknow"][/quote]

I think there's some chicken and egg stuff with respect to that sort of play. Bargs needs to get better at scoring on short guys in the post - he does so uncomfortably at best, with far too many bad shots and TOs. And while he's not that good at it now, he needs more touches to get better at it. But right now its a low % option, which Jose instinctively recognizes, hence his reluctance. But then Bargs won't improve if he gets 1 opportunity a game like that, and he gets frustrated to boot.

The answer? I'm not sure.

[yucatan87]

Forget about his draft position. It's irrelevant if he was the 1st overall pick or an undrafted rookie from Goodwater, Alabama. It's the same idea as a sunk cost when calculating an investment, it's done, there's nothing you can do about it, and should not be considered even the slightest for analysis as far as his place and role on the team is, going forward. Similarly, we need to accept that Bargnani is a poor rebounder and complement him with better rebounders if we intend to keep him as our C for the future. You're not going to try to turn somebody like Jason Collins into Hakeem in the post, but you will surround him with scorers that minimize his offense as a liability. Bosh and Moon have to make a concerted effort to use their athleticism/instincts (or whatever you consider their advantage over Bargs to be) on every missed shot or they need to be replaced by players capable of helping minimize Bargs' rebounding as a liability.

[tb40]

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No, I'm not saying your timeline is wrong, or your expression of it unjust, just that it's not really any more founded in anything but a personal take more than SS's or mine or anyone elses.

See, one thing you'll see from this side of the fence is that the 'just wait until' bars that keep being reset for Bargs don't really appear to be finite. It was, at one point, wait until he's starting. Wait until his second year, when he has a full offseason under his belt after experiencing NBA play. Originally it was widely suggested that his euro-pro experience would significantly reduce how much time he would take to develop. Etc.

ie, 3rd season doesn't to me seem to be any more practical than 2nd season, or starting, or whatever. And this whole 'get a coach' thing is also a bit of a MacGuffin, imo. Among other things, it presumes that he hasn't been coached yet, or that you need a certain kind of coach to coach him (which didn't apply to Bosh, somehow) or that it's normal for players to need that to develop, etc.

Again, you are entitled to your opinion, I just hope you can understand why to me it just seems like the latest in an ongoing line of reset parameters which should exist before we take anything solid from what we're actually seeing. And you COULD be right. This one COULD be the one that actually ends up applying. But I don't see any more reason to assume that than any of the others, if you get me.

This team has no choice but to try and develop Bargs to the best of their ability, whether you or I believe extra tutoring will help or not isn't of any significance. Whether you or I or anyone else believes Bargs can become a solid defensive player/rebounder is of no significance either.

What is significant is BC has a lot invested in this pick, not only for the future of the team, but also for BC's personal reputation.

If I'm in BC's shoes, I do everything, and I mean everything, whether it be finding the proper coach to teach him to become a center, or whether it be hiring a personal strength and conditioning coach or both, or whether it be firing this whole coaching staff and bringing one in that would be more conducive to Bargs development.... then I do it, there is too much at stake here. imo.

Once this is complete, and Bargs still hasn't shown any improvement, then this type of a thread would have much more of an impact...... and in BC's world, it would be onto plan B wouldn't it?

[rapstarr]

bargs need a big man coach