Official RJ Barrett Thread

[ATLTimekeeper]

His teammates and his increased responsibilities are a component of his tribulations, but his production has been in line with his career performance. He doesn't have a reliable perimeter game. He doesn't have a reliable middle game. He DOES have the ability to apply rim pressure and to get shots inside of 10 feet... but he struggles to finish them. He's 5-6% below league average on the closest shots in the game, and something like 9 or 10% below average on those short shots. He doesn't finish well, and he DOES force his way to those spots because he doesn't have proficiency with any kind of middle counters.

Okay we just have different ideas of what finishing ability means.

He's 7th overall in tightly contested 2PTers. He shoots 54% on those. That's a good percentage on those types of shots. We know they're at the rim. I don't see it valuable to compare short shots to league average. The **** does it matter if he's worse than Anthony Davis in close? He's a guard. He gets there and it's an efficient shot overall.

3-6 dribbles he's shooting 56% at high volume. These are his primary playmaking possessions. Quick PnRs and then taking what's available.

[tsherkin]

Okay we just have different ideas of what finishing ability means.

He's 7th overall in tightly contested 2PTers. He shoots 54% on those. That's a good percentage on those types of shots. We know they're at the rim. I don't see it valuable to compare short shots to league average. The **** does it matter if he's worse than Anthony Davis in close? He's a guard. He gets there and it's an efficient shot overall.

3-6 dribbles he's shooting 56% at high volume. These are his primary playmaking possessions. Quick PnRs and then taking what's available.

He's inefficient as hell and you're quibbling over relative efficiency? Fun fun.

Look at efficient scorers in his size range, then. How many of them shoot THAT MUCH WORSE than league average in those spaces?

Like, we can try and find excuses for why we shouldn't compare him to "Anthony Davis in close," or we can realize that the FG% from 0-3 feet from guys RJ's size is typically at or above league average in that zone. Jaylen Brown shoots 69.5% from 0-3 on his career. Quickley shoots 66.3%, which isn't ideal but it is still meaningfully superior to Barrett.

You don't need absurd counterpoints to deflect this: it's very clearly a problem. Same same with those short shots.

If he were within a percent or two of the average, it would be a different story, but he's grossly inefficient in those places compared to his peers at size and league average. And he is overall inefficient. His inability to hit shots at a level comparable to efficient scorers of reasonably similar build is an issue. This is an inescapable truth.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Okay we just have different ideas of what finishing ability means.

He's 7th overall in tightly contested 2PTers. He shoots 54% on those. That's a good percentage on those types of shots. We know they're at the rim. I don't see it valuable to compare short shots to league average. The **** does it matter if he's worse than Anthony Davis in close? He's a guard. He gets there and it's an efficient shot overall.

3-6 dribbles he's shooting 56% at high volume. These are his primary playmaking possessions. Quick PnRs and then taking what's available.

He's inefficient as hell and you're quibbling over relative efficiency? Fun fun.

Look at efficient scorers in his size range, then. How many of them shoot THAT MUCH WORSE than league average in those spaces?

Like, we can try and find excuses for why we shouldn't compare him to "Anthony Davis in close," or we can realize that the FG% from 0-3 feet from guys RJ's size is typically at or above league average in that zone. Jaylen Brown shoots 69.5% from 0-3 on his career. Quickley shoots 66.3%, which isn't ideal but it is still meaningfully superior to Barrett.

You don't need absurd counterpoints to deflect this: it's very clearly a problem. Same same with those short shots.

If he were within a percent or two of the average, it would be a different story, but he's grossly inefficient in those places compared to his peers at size and league average. And he is overall inefficient. His inability to hit shots at a level comparable to efficient scorers of reasonably similar build is an issue. This is an inescapable truth.

? He shoots almost 3 more shots a game in the restricted area than Jaylen Brown. He's 5th overall in shots in the restricted area. That's not what guards do, or players that size do.

You've moved the goalposts on whether he's a good finisher or not to just overall efficiency. Of course size matters. Context matters. I don't care if he's below average compared to other guys that finish exclusively in transition, play in 5 out offenses or are 7 feet tall superstars.

[MEDIC]

I think RJ has to figure out his role again now that Barnes is back in the lineup. He has been essentially playing Scotties role.while Scottie & IQ are out. Now he has to go back to.smart off the ball cuts & hitting open 3's.

He seems to have pretty good chemisty with elite 3 point shooters, which we have seen with both GD & IQ. Hopefully IQ, Barnes & RJ can have a good run together soon & get some.of that chemistry back.

I think the tough thing about this team is we have a bunch of high end role.players. All the peices have to be there for this team to be successful. We are missing our 2 best 3 point shooters & in todays NBA, that's almost an automatic L.

When you are trotting out an undrafted rookie as your only 3 point specialist........you are in trouble.

[tsherkin]

? He shoots almost 3 more shots a game in the restricted area than Jaylen Brown. He's 5th overall in shots in the restricted area. That's not what guards do, or players that size do.

Yeah, because he forces the issue to shoot there, which erodes his overall FG%. The quality of his looks is not particularly high a lot of the time...

You've moved the goalposts on whether he's a good finisher or not to just overall efficiency. Of course size matters. Context matters. I don't care if he's below average compared to other guys that finish exclusively in transition, play in 5 out offenses or are 7 feet tall superstars.

I've moved no goalposts. You remarked about Anthony Davis, and I started looking at players of reasonably similar size. You're talking about a guy who has no skill between the rim and the 3pt line and so he has to bull his way all the way to the rim. The skill of being able to do that is a good foundation up from which to build, we agree, but he has issues finishing his shots in volume compared to his peers, and he has issues finishing shots literally everywhere else. This isn't a contestable issue, it's a half-decade of data and approach...

[ATLTimekeeper]

? He shoots almost 3 more shots a game in the restricted area than Jaylen Brown. He's 5th overall in shots in the restricted area. That's not what guards do, or players that size do.

Yeah, because he forces the issue to shoot there, which erodes his overall FG%. The quality of his looks is not particularly high a lot of the time...

You've moved the goalposts on whether he's a good finisher or not to just overall efficiency. Of course size matters. Context matters. I don't care if he's below average compared to other guys that finish exclusively in transition, play in 5 out offenses or are 7 feet tall superstars.

I've moved no goalposts. You remarked about Anthony Davis, and I started looking at players of reasonably similar size. You're talking about a guy who has no skill between the rim and the 3pt line and so he has to bull his way all the way to the rim. The skill of being able to do that is a good foundation up from which to build, we agree, but he has issues finishing his shots in volume compared to his peers, and he has issues finishing shots literally everywhere else. This isn't a contestable issue, it's a half-decade of data and approach...

Which is why, when speaking about finishing ability, I pointed out that he's actually good at finishing contested shots (which we know are at the rim by process of elimination). 54% from 2 isn't a bad shot, period. It doesn't matter what the league average is if guys of a similar size are cherry picking their %s in transition, for example.

[Scase]

? He shoots almost 3 more shots a game in the restricted area than Jaylen Brown. He's 5th overall in shots in the restricted area. That's not what guards do, or players that size do.

Yeah, because he forces the issue to shoot there, which erodes his overall FG%. The quality of his looks is not particularly high a lot of the time...

You've moved the goalposts on whether he's a good finisher or not to just overall efficiency. Of course size matters. Context matters. I don't care if he's below average compared to other guys that finish exclusively in transition, play in 5 out offenses or are 7 feet tall superstars.

I've moved no goalposts. You remarked about Anthony Davis, and I started looking at players of reasonably similar size. You're talking about a guy who has no skill between the rim and the 3pt line and so he has to bull his way all the way to the rim. The skill of being able to do that is a good foundation up from which to build, we agree, but he has issues finishing his shots in volume compared to his peers, and he has issues finishing shots literally everywhere else. This isn't a contestable issue, it's a half-decade of data and approach...

Which is why, when speaking about finishing ability, I pointed out that he's actually good at finishing contested shots (which we know are at the rim by process of elimination). 54% from 2 isn't a bad shot, period. It doesn't matter what the league average is if guys of a similar size are cherry picking their %s in transition, for example.

This is approaching Thad Young stats level of cherry picking. You have presented zero statistical evidence that RJ, and only RJ, has the majority of his 0-3ft shots contested, and that everyone else in the league is just flying down the open court uncontested.

[tsherkin]

Yeah, because he forces the issue to shoot there, which erodes his overall FG%. The quality of his looks is not particularly high a lot of the time...



I've moved no goalposts. You remarked about Anthony Davis, and I started looking at players of reasonably similar size. You're talking about a guy who has no skill between the rim and the 3pt line and so he has to bull his way all the way to the rim. The skill of being able to do that is a good foundation up from which to build, we agree, but he has issues finishing his shots in volume compared to his peers, and he has issues finishing shots literally everywhere else. This isn't a contestable issue, it's a half-decade of data and approach...

Which is why, when speaking about finishing ability, I pointed out that he's actually good at finishing contested shots (which we know are at the rim by process of elimination). 54% from 2 isn't a bad shot, period. It doesn't matter what the league average is if guys of a similar size are cherry picking their %s in transition, for example.

This is approaching Thad Young stats level of cherry picking. You have presented zero statistical evidence that RJ, and only RJ, has the majority of his 0-3ft shots contested, and that everyone else in the league is just flying down the open court uncontested.

There is some amount of eye-rolling here from me, for sure. Like, he isn't efficient and he has huge percentage gaps between himself and peers and league average. So the mental gymnastics involved in justifying that are a bit much for me.

[Vampirate]

Which is why, when speaking about finishing ability, I pointed out that he's actually good at finishing contested shots (which we know are at the rim by process of elimination). 54% from 2 isn't a bad shot, period. It doesn't matter what the league average is if guys of a similar size are cherry picking their %s in transition, for example.

This is approaching Thad Young stats level of cherry picking. You have presented zero statistical evidence that RJ, and only RJ, has the majority of his 0-3ft shots contested, and that everyone else in the league is just flying down the open court uncontested.

There is some amount of eye-rolling here from me, for sure. Like, he isn't efficient and he has huge percentage gaps between himself and peers and league average. So the mental gymnastics involved in justifying that are a bit much for me.

I think the most simplistic way to explain RJ is he's an excellent off ball slasher, but a very poor on ball one.

Last year .622 of his 2s were assisted, this year he's at a .319 assisted rate.

He's simply bad as an on ball scorer. But possibly very good off ball.

In the Olympics he had SGA to set him up.

This year, he's asked to do too much. The results are self explanatory. he's back to his NY days of on ball scoring when it's a giant weakness of his and he's way more limited than Barnes is even if he has a better first step.

[tsherkin]

I think the most simplistic way to explain RJ is he's an excellent off ball slasher, but a very poor on ball one.

Last year .622 of his 2s were assisted, this year he's at a .319 assisted rate.

He's simply bad as an on ball scorer. But possibly very good off ball.

In the Olympics he had SGA to set him up.

This year, he's asked to do too much. The results are self explanatory. he's back to his NY days of on ball scoring when it's a giant weakness of his and he's way more limited than Barnes is even if he has a better first step.

I'm pretty comfortable with all of that, yes.

[johanliebert]

His current stats are more closely aligned with his career numbers as opposed to the 32 games with Raps last season. Hard truths.

Hey whatever makes you feel better. Luckily raptors brass doesnt listen to this board. Yall would have him only cutting off-ball lol.

[ropjhk]

I think the most simplistic way to explain RJ is he's an excellent off ball slasher, but a very poor on ball one.

Last year .622 of his 2s were assisted, this year he's at a .319 assisted rate.

He's simply bad as an on ball scorer. But possibly very good off ball.

In the Olympics he had SGA to set him up.

This year, he's asked to do too much. The results are self explanatory. he's back to his NY days of on ball scoring when it's a giant weakness of his and he's way more limited than Barnes is even if he has a better first step.

I'm pretty comfortable with all of that, yes.

I agree with that too. Last year on the Raptors 43% of his 2 pointers were within 0-3ft. This year that percent has dropped to 29.5%. He has a skill that can be valuable in the right system but right now the Raptors aren't taking best advantage of him. He needs his teammates to assist him as he slashes his way to the rim.

I expect his numbers to improve as he plays more games with a healthy roster. He's a complimentary scorer who's being asked to fill the role of a primary scorer so far this season.

[MEDIC]

I think the most simplistic way to explain RJ is he's an excellent off ball slasher, but a very poor on ball one.

Last year .622 of his 2s were assisted, this year he's at a .319 assisted rate.

He's simply bad as an on ball scorer. But possibly very good off ball.

In the Olympics he had SGA to set him up.

This year, he's asked to do too much. The results are self explanatory. he's back to his NY days of on ball scoring when it's a giant weakness of his and he's way more limited than Barnes is even if he has a better first step.

You hit the nail.on the head......and there is value in players like that if they have the right players.around them and the right system.

Another thing I noticed about RJ is that his most efficient 3 point shooting seasons seem to be when he takes 3-4 a game. When his usage is higher from that area, his % plummets. I am guessing this is also a product of him taking good/ wide open shots rather than forcing his game.

I was actually a little disappointed when Darko had him playing on the ball so much while Scottie was out. That's not his game & I am a big believer in building strong habits. We saw some bad habits creep back in, which will now need to be unlearned.

[Vampirate]

I think the most simplistic way to explain RJ is he's an excellent off ball slasher, but a very poor on ball one.

Last year .622 of his 2s were assisted, this year he's at a .319 assisted rate.

He's simply bad as an on ball scorer. But possibly very good off ball.

In the Olympics he had SGA to set him up.

This year, he's asked to do too much. The results are self explanatory. he's back to his NY days of on ball scoring when it's a giant weakness of his and he's way more limited than Barnes is even if he has a better first step.

You hit the nail.on the head......and there is value in players like that if they have the right players.around them and the right system.

Another thing I noticed about RJ is that his most efficient 3 point shooting seasons seem to be when he takes 3-4 a game. When his usage is higher from that area, his % plummets. I am guessing this is also a product of him taking good/ wide open shots rather than forcing his game.

I was actually a little disappointed when Darko had him playing on the ball so much while Scottie was out. That's not his game & I am a big believer in building strong habits. We saw some bad habits creep back in, which will now need to be unlearned.

I have a theory that every player has an efficient usage when it comes to taking threes.

RJ seems to be a very good set shooter at around 4-5 threes a game, just don't ask him to create on the perimeter.

Just a pure off ball guy imo.

[tsherkin]

Another thing I noticed about RJ is that his most efficient 3 point shooting seasons seem to be when he takes 3-4 a game. When his usage is higher from that area, his % plummets. I am guessing this is also a product of him taking good/ wide open shots rather than forcing his game.

Heavy corner usage also seems to go well for him. Above the break, far less so.

[HumbleRen]

I’m waiting for him to show me he’s a positive defender. Being a non defender as a wing is just non negotiable to me.

[MEDIC]

I’m waiting for him to show me he’s a positive defender. Being a non defender as a wing is just non negotiable to me.

That's how I feel about the PG position.

[HumbleRen]

I’m waiting for him to show me he’s a positive defender. Being a non defender as a wing is just non negotiable to me.

That's how I feel about the PG position.

Feel the opposite. PG position is the one position you should be able to hide your player on defence at.

As a wing? There’s no hiding lol. If you’re 6’7, you’re gonna have to defend.

[Sidthekid87]

Give this team 1 more year same cast and healthy they could be better than the prime DD+ Lowry team. Scottie is Lowry, RJ might be better than Raps DD, and now we have far better casts with Dick, Jakob and Mogbo. BUT if you insist on a champion caliber team, I probably won't include both RJ and Quickley and hopefully mgt view them as trading chips and not core to sit on.

I think raptors DD was majorly overrated and Kyle was always the best player, but this is an insult to him. RJ STINKS. A complete net negative to winning. Only 24 so maybe he can improve, but even in the long term we'd be so much better off trading him for picks and a big man with potential.

Barrett is averaging 23pts on 19fga in a role that is larger than he can handle because of injuries/ lack of personnel. He also places way more pressure on the rim than anyone on our roster - you would wish Barnes had that kind of aggression regularly.

That only ‘stinks’ if you drafted him with a top 3 pick or paid him like a franchise player. We did neither, and you can’t expect role players not to have off games.

We git 99 problems but i don’t think RJ is one of them.

Well, here's your issue with him, when has he demonstrated that he'd ever be a role player? He's not capable of it, he stunk in that role with the Knicks, and no matter what his stats say he stinks as a top 3 option, so where does that leave him?

[RoteSchroder]

I think raptors DD was majorly overrated and Kyle was always the best player, but this is an insult to him. RJ STINKS. A complete net negative to winning. Only 24 so maybe he can improve, but even in the long term we'd be so much better off trading him for picks and a big man with potential.

Barrett is averaging 23pts on 19fga in a role that is larger than he can handle because of injuries/ lack of personnel. He also places way more pressure on the rim than anyone on our roster - you would wish Barnes had that kind of aggression regularly.

That only ‘stinks’ if you drafted him with a top 3 pick or paid him like a franchise player. We did neither, and you can’t expect role players not to have off games.

We git 99 problems but i don’t think RJ is one of them.

Well, here's your issue with him, when has he demonstrated that he'd ever be a role player? He's not capable of it, he stunk in that role with the Knicks, and no matter what his stats say he stinks as a top 3 option, so where does that leave him?

According to Knicks fans, Thibs had him leading the bench.

Last year, he logged 228 minutes with the Knick's starting line-up. The Knick's second most played line-up prior to the RJ trade was RJ + bench (116 minutes). Would be interesting to see his shooting splits between these two line-ups.