Reasons to Keep Bargnani

[Reignman]

It was a hypothetical situation, or at least thats what I took it as. If Bargnani was on any of those teams he would be receiving 28-30 minutes a game. If we were a championship contender, then I assume he would be getting 28 minutes a game here as well. Not hard to understand, mr critical thinker.

Our goal is to build a championship team and he was asking which contenders would play bargnani meaningful minutes. That was my answer. And yes I pulled those teams out of my ass, how observant of you. As opposed to pulling them out of my nose, ear or magic lamp.

I guess you pulled the 28-30 mins out of your ass as well?

- Matt Bonner gets 21 mins in SA.
- Ryan Anderson is averaging less than 20 and has never averaged over 21
- Channing Frye last season got 27 mins

So here's the deal, stretch bigs typically don't get a lot of mins unless they bring other things to the table. Every player on that list is a better rebounder and defender than Bargs. Looking at that list the only player that has gotten a lot of mins recently is Channing Frye who is averaging 32 mins this season but that's on the Suns and defense isn't exactly their first concern. On top of that he's still a superior rebounder defender.

So in conclusion, there isn't a single contender out there that would compromise their defense by playing Bargnani 30 mins. An odd ball team like the Suns might try it but they aren't a serious contender.

Yes, I did pull that number out of my ass. Again, where was I supposed to pull it from? Was I supposed to create an alternate universe with my god like powers and play out an entire season with bargnani on those teams and report back here with my findings? Of course I pulled it out of my ass it is my opinion.

and lol @ channing frye and matt bonner being better defenders than Bargnani. Talk about people over valuing other teams peripheral players.

And maybe those stretch bigs dont play a lot of minutes, but Bargnani has much more talent then them, has 2-3 inches on the players you listed. And Ryan Anderson is a "stretch big" shooting a sizzling 42% from the field being the 5th option on that team.

Basically your entire post is wrong. Where did you pull it out of?

All 3 are better defenders than Bargs. I never said they were good defenders I just said they were better than Bargs and most would agree with that.

on top of that, all 3 are FAR SUPERIOR rebounders. in 21 mins per game Anderson averages 5.3 boards, in 21 mins per game Bonner averages 3.4 and in 32 mins pergame Frye averages 6.6 boards.

on top of all that, all 3 are much better 3 pt shooters than Bargs (and isn't that the whole point of having a stretch big?). Bonner shoots 3s at a 48% clip while Frye and Anderson are just shy of 40%.

All 3 of those guys are far better value than Bargs and i'm guess they'd feel that way too if contemplating a trade.

Nobody that's trying to win a ring is making Bargs the 1st option, giving him 35+ mins and giving him 19 shots per game......NOBODY.

[Local_NG_Idiot]

Duncan doesn't get 30 mpg on SAS this season. and Blair, Bonner and McDyess all share roughly 20mpg duties during their regular game rotations. Where does Bargs get 30?

BOS - One of the deepest teams up front when healthy. No way they sit some of those guys over Bargs, especially with the value they put on their defensive system.

Miami - They would be the laughing stock of the league if they walked Bosh and Bargs out as their frontcourt. Again, Bosh is the better, more efficient player and with him on the court there is NO WAY they put someone like Bargs beside him and expect to still have championship aspirations. He would at most get Bosh's rest time minutes.

Orlando - Van Gundy likes to play small ball with Dwight in the middle 3 wings and PG. Bass and Anderson are both 21mpg guys. Again, at most he'd have a Gortat role as a 15mpg backup at the C.

OKC - This is about the only team I could see him worked into the front court rotation in order to help spread the floor, but I don't think a cost conscious GM like Presti paying 9mil a season for a backup shooter who doesn't play defense.

[Reignman]

Duncan doesn't get 30 mpg on SAS this season. and Blair, Bonner and McDyess all share roughly 20mpg duties during their regular game rotations. Where does Bargs get 30?

BOS - One of the deepest teams up front when healthy. No way they sit some of those guys over Bargs, especially with the value they put on their defensive system.

Miami - They would be the laughing stock of the league if they walked Bosh and Bargs out as their frontcourt. Again, Bosh is the better, more efficient player and with him on the court there is NO WAY they put someone like Bargs beside him and expect to still have championship aspirations. He would at most get Bosh's rest time minutes.

Orlando - Van Gundy likes to play small ball with Dwight in the middle 3 wings and PG. Bass and Anderson are both 21mpg guys. Again, at most he'd have a Gortat role as a 15mpg backup at the C.

OKC - This is about the only team I could see him worked into the front court rotation in order to help spread the floor, but I don't a cost conscious GM like Presti paying 9mil a season for a backup shooter who doesn't play defense.

Just having to explain things like this seems so silly. NBA fans should already understand these things.

[Natural11]

Bargnani is a tank machine and as long as we have him we'll be scoring lottery picks something fierce.

[ItsDanger]

I would describe some posters attitudes as obsessive in maniacal fashion.

[snomeister]

Miami - They would be the laughing stock of the league if they walked Bosh and Bargs out as their frontcourt.

Low blow, man.

[HighOctane]

Orlando, San Antonio, Boston, Miami, OKC would all give him 28-30 minutes. Am I missing anyone? Thats pretty much all the contending teams except the Lakers. Playing him 35 minutes is too much even on this team but we have nobody else that can play minutes.

lol

what fantasy world are you living in? no way Bargs even sees the floor in San Antonio, Boston, or Chicago which you conveniently forgot...garbage time maybe. He might see the floor in Orlando, Miami, and OKC...perhaps 15-20 minutes tops, but there's a reason these teams are contenders aside from the fact they have multiple all-stars. None of these teams would give Bargs 30 minutes a game, which would obviously include a fair amount of touches, if it came at the expense of their all-stars receiving less touches...also I don't think either of those teams would be contenders with Bargnani logging 30 minutes a game hopelessly trying to defend the rim.

I conveniently left out Chicago because he would not get minutes there. Bargnani being a 3rd of 4th option on those teams would suite them well. They are in need of stretch bigs and Bargnani would not be so exhausted doing everything on offense he can actually put some effort into defence.

I dont think anyone would receive less touches on the teams I mentioned because of Bargnani, because the offence would not be run through him he would be the recipient of passes.

I'm with Sensi here, first of all being a stretch big is not that important if the stretch big is inefficient on the offensive end. Add poor defense on the other side and you just have a sub-par player.

I know you left Chicago out, but since I also watch them quite a bit I'll use them as an example since they are a contender just as much as SA, Boston - just switch the parts out. Chi has a frontcourt with Noah, Boozer, Gibson who are all much better players than Bargnani at this point of their careers, even Gibson. Why is Miami winning? Because of tremendous Rose play, a killer frontcourt, and reliable wingmen like Deng. You throw in Bargnani as a third option and what do you get?

1. Frontcourt loses most of its defensive ability on the inside.
2. All of Chicago's wingmen are wondering where to stand when a 7 footer is taking up their 3 point space. Oh no!
3. Offensive rebounding and hustle, I don't think even a guy like Noah could make Bargnani wake up in his court awareness.

Who scores the points? They have a nice distribution between Rose, Brewer, Deng, Boozer, and Noah taking all the points. Bargnani screws up a team's chemistry completely, people don't understand how problematic it is to build around him, and he's not worth it.

So using your theory that he is the 'recipient of passes' try and apply that to any of the 3 points I outlined there. He turns into a 3 point shooter, and he's not one of the better ones in the league. Add to the fact that since he's a PF/C you have to completely build around him. I don't blame Bosh for leaving this disaster.

[roundhead0]

Miami - They would be the laughing stock of the league if they walked Bosh and Bargs out as their frontcourt.

Low blow, man.

But on the other hand...imagine last year's Raptors moving out Hedo to make room for Lebron and Derozan to make room for Wade. Move a few more players for capspace of course. That team is no laughingstock.

Anyway Miami getting Bargnani makes no sense if you intend to play him with all 3 of those guys. Not enough shots to go around and Bargs is an offensive player. But imagine Bargs getting minutes when a couple of those guys are on the bench getting a breather. He could probably give a pretty effective 20 mins a game for that team, or more on the nights when his shot is falling. But really, they don't need him.

[darth_federer]

It isnt hard to understand why we want him traded. First of all he aint that good. Like I said, offensively he is inefficient

He takes 18 shots a game to get 22 points. His TS% is .53 and the league average is .54. Guy isnt even at the league average. Yes it doesnt include free throws but if anything it would be even worse if you consider free throws because hes taking 5.5 free throws per game. So 18.2 shots + 5.5 free throws per game= 23.7 shot attempts. So he needs 23.7 shot attempts to get 22 points a game. Its why his TS% (which includes free throws) is below league average too.

Here's the rub: what can you say is Bargnani's greatest strength as a player right now? You can't say it's his three-point shot anymore, because he's only hitting 34 per cent from behind the arc, with puts him outside the top-100 three-point shooters in the NBA. You could try saying it's his ability to score 20-plus per game, but he's doing it so inefficiently (he's 180th in the NBA in true shooting percentage) that you have to question that ability as an NBA-level skill. He's got the worst true-shooting per cent of any player scoring 20-or-more points in the NBA this season, and only Kevin Love's Timberwolves has a worse record of that lot. You could make a pretty compelling case, in fact, that Bargnani is only a 20 ppg scorer because the team gives him so many attempts per game to make it happen. Only eight players take more shots than him per game, and those above him clearly outclass Bargnani as an NBA scorer (Monta Ellis, Derrick Rose, Kevin Durant, Kobe Bryant, Carmelo Anthony, Amar'e Stoudemire, LeBron James and Dwyane Wade).

http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/tim_chisholm/?id=358713

Spin: Bargnani is an enigma wrapped inside a conundrum and deep fried in a fortune cookie. He's seven feet tall, and yet he's only averaging 5.6 rebounds this season. That pretty much means he only grabs the rebounds that come to him and that he has no desire to pursue them otherwise. Some people would argue that his shot selection keeps him away from the basket and limits his rebounding opportunities. But that doesn't make a convincing argument when you consider that Kevin Love averages 15.8 rebounds while attempting 3.1 shots from beyond the arc and Bargnani takes 3.5 attempts from three-point range per game. The discrepancy is embarrassing. His shot blocking used to make up for his lack of rebounds, but Bargnani has only recorded three blocks since the end of January.

This is from his ESPN fantasy page.

Bargnani isnt an elite scorer. To even suggest otherwise is laughable and to me it isnt worth the effort to keep him if he isnt even that good.

Defensively hes even worse. Since 2007 hes had 4 of the top 20 worst defensive seasons among any big man. His DRAT this season is the worst among all big men since 2007. His shot blocking has disappeared and hes had 3 blocks since January.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... by=def_rtg

Hes also come to symbolize the Colangelo era. Bad defensive teams, very little accountability and poor effort. There is also resentment for how Colangelo never holds his boy accountable. So a lot of people are in favour of turning the page and moving on. Is he incredibly talented? Yes, but there are a ton of players who have tantalizing potential but they never end up reaching it. Hes also admitted to being lazy and we can all see the lack of effort.

Bargnani is asked how he gets beat on the boards.

"Being lazy maybe," he says. "That's the only reason it can be. I've got the body, I've got everything to take 10 rebounds a game. It's just sometimes I get lazy."

He needs to fix that, obviously. He needs to play with more focus.

"Yeah," Bargnani agrees. "More focus. You said it. More focus and don't get lazy."

http://www.nba.com/2010/news/features/s ... /bargnani/

I dont know about you but keeping one of the worst rebounders in nba history, a guy who doesnt play hard and a horrible defensive bigman is not how I want to build my team. Call me a hater, an idiot or whatever but a lot of people are in favour of us trading him.

[Dr Positivity]

There's a lot of arguments against Bargnani, but scoring 22ppg at average efficiency shouldn't be one of them. He's by far the best offensive player on our team and attracts a lot of attention. Our best chance at winning games is when he drops a 25-30 pointer. Without Bargnani our team defenses would have the easiest time ever rotating to the nearest ballhandler and crushing us. We have ZERO shooting.

Bargnani is a better offensive player than Kevin Love, I don't care about TS%. Bargnani has more skill and moves. Love is scoring like David Lee scored last year. Ultimate garbage man points. Bargnani legitimately has to be defended in the halfcourt or he's going off on you and that has an impact on everyone else's games. The difference between Bargnani and Love's offense is the biggest reason we're better than the Twolves this year, IMO.

He's a crap defender and rebounder, but offensively he is very good and we would be a disaster without his scoring

[Local_NG_Idiot]

But on the other hand...imagine last year's Raptors moving out Hedo to make room for Lebron and Derozan to make room for Wade. Move a few more players for capspace of course. That team is no laughingstock.

Anyway Miami getting Bargnani makes no sense if you intend to play him with all 3 of those guys. Not enough shots to go around and Bargs is an offensive player. But imagine Bargs getting minutes when a couple of those guys are on the bench getting a breather. He could probably give a pretty effective 20 mins a game for that team, or more on the nights when his shot is falling. But really, they don't need him.

Isn't that what Jones, House, and Bibby already do for them?

Who exactly would they displace in their current rotations to find Bargs 20mpg and the 10+ necessary shots he needs in order to have any semblance of effectiveness?

You gonna take shots away from Wade and LeBron? You gonna give him Joel Anthony's 1.2FGA/game? You gonna give him Bibby's 4 3PA/game that he's hitting at rate of 47.5%?

He makes no sense in any type of role on that team and wouldn't see the floor other than to give Bosh a breather and that's a pretty expensive backup PF.

My comment to laughing stock isn't a knock on the Raps for attempting the failed experiment of a Bosh/Bargs front court. It would be that someone would be dumb enough to think that it could still work after seeing what they did here.

ie: If I told you that punching yourself in the family jewels hard enough makes me puke, then if I showed you video proof on multiple occasions of the performed act, I would bust a gut laughing watching you attempt to do it to yourself to prove to me I wouldn't puke.....then I'd puke.

[Reignman]

There's a lot of arguments against Bargnani, but scoring 22ppg at average efficiency shouldn't be one of them. He's by far the best offensive player on our team and attracts a lot of attention. Our best chance at winning games is when he drops a 25-30 pointer. Without Bargnani our team defenses would have the easiest time ever rotating to the nearest ballhandler and crushing us. We have ZERO shooting.

Bargnani is a better offensive player than Kevin Love, I don't care about TS%. Bargnani has more skill and moves. Love is scoring like David Lee scored last year. Ultimate garbage man points. Bargnani legitimately has to be defended in the halfcourt or he's going off on you and that has an impact on everyone else's games. The difference between Bargnani and Love's offense is the biggest reason we're better than the Twolves this year, IMO.

He's a crap defender and rebounder, but offensively he is very good and we would be a disaster without his scoring

We're a disaster with his scoring so I think you're putting way too much emphasis on that point. And "moves" mean absolutely nothing. TS% captures the goods. There's no convolution in that, just the facts.

[Kashy_Tigray]

funny sigs:



it gave me a good laugh today .

[Kashy_Tigray]

This one is great as well

[Dr Positivity]

There's a lot of arguments against Bargnani, but scoring 22ppg at average efficiency shouldn't be one of them. He's by far the best offensive player on our team and attracts a lot of attention. Our best chance at winning games is when he drops a 25-30 pointer. Without Bargnani our team defenses would have the easiest time ever rotating to the nearest ballhandler and crushing us. We have ZERO shooting.

Bargnani is a better offensive player than Kevin Love, I don't care about TS%. Bargnani has more skill and moves. Love is scoring like David Lee scored last year. Ultimate garbage man points. Bargnani legitimately has to be defended in the halfcourt or he's going off on you and that has an impact on everyone else's games. The difference between Bargnani and Love's offense is the biggest reason we're better than the Twolves this year, IMO.

He's a crap defender and rebounder, but offensively he is very good and we would be a disaster without his scoring

We're a disaster with his scoring so I think you're putting way too much emphasis on that point. And "moves" mean absolutely nothing. TS% captures the goods. There's no convolution in that, just the facts.

Not quite. We're headed towards something like 23-24 Ws, despite big injuries to Reggie, Barbosa, Kleiza and Weems (and Bargnani for 8 Gs). It looks like we'd be a 27 W+ team with Reggie all year. We're also 20th in ORTG which is bad but it could be worse

It's a bad team but without Bargnani I think it'd look more like the Cavs seasons

[Reignman]

There's a lot of arguments against Bargnani, but scoring 22ppg at average efficiency shouldn't be one of them. He's by far the best offensive player on our team and attracts a lot of attention. Our best chance at winning games is when he drops a 25-30 pointer. Without Bargnani our team defenses would have the easiest time ever rotating to the nearest ballhandler and crushing us. We have ZERO shooting.

Bargnani is a better offensive player than Kevin Love, I don't care about TS%. Bargnani has more skill and moves. Love is scoring like David Lee scored last year. Ultimate garbage man points. Bargnani legitimately has to be defended in the halfcourt or he's going off on you and that has an impact on everyone else's games. The difference between Bargnani and Love's offense is the biggest reason we're better than the Twolves this year, IMO.

He's a crap defender and rebounder, but offensively he is very good and we would be a disaster without his scoring

We're a disaster with his scoring so I think you're putting way too much emphasis on that point. And "moves" mean absolutely nothing. TS% captures the goods. There's no convolution in that, just the facts.

Not quite. We're headed towards something like 23-24 Ws, despite big injuries to Reggie, Barbosa, Kleiza and Weems (and Bargnani for 8 Gs). It looks like we'd be a 27 W+ team with Reggie all year. We're also 20th in ORTG which is bad but it could be worse

It's a bad team but without Bargnani I think it'd look more like the Cavs seasons

You replace Bargs with nothing and obviously there will be a variance. Let's say someone like the Clippers were stupid enough to trade Kaman for Bargs, I'm sure we'd surpass the 23/24 wins.

[dacrusha]

There's a lot of arguments against Bargnani, but scoring 22ppg at average efficiency shouldn't be one of them. He's by far the best offensive player on our team and attracts a lot of attention. Our best chance at winning games is when he drops a 25-30 pointer. Without Bargnani our team defenses would have the easiest time ever rotating to the nearest ballhandler and crushing us. We have ZERO shooting.

Bargnani is a better offensive player than Kevin Love, I don't care about TS%. Bargnani has more skill and moves. Love is scoring like David Lee scored last year. Ultimate garbage man points. Bargnani legitimately has to be defended in the halfcourt or he's going off on you and that has an impact on everyone else's games. The difference between Bargnani and Love's offense is the biggest reason we're better than the Twolves this year, IMO.

He's a crap defender and rebounder, but offensively he is very good and we would be a disaster without his scoring

We're a disaster with his scoring so I think you're putting way too much emphasis on that point. And "moves" mean absolutely nothing. TS% captures the goods. There's no convolution in that, just the facts.

Not quite. We're headed towards something like 23-24 Ws, despite big injuries to Reggie, Barbosa, Kleiza and Weems (and Bargnani for 8 Gs). It looks like we'd be a 27 W+ team with Reggie all year. We're also 20th in ORTG which is bad but it could be worse

It's a bad team but without Bargnani I think it'd look more like the Cavs seasons

Bargs has 2.6 win shares this year... while Love has 11.5.

Minny would have a losing season for the ages if Love wasn't there, but without Bargs, we'd have about the same record as we have right now.

[Cake Walk]

Duncan doesn't get 30 mpg on SAS this season. and Blair, Bonner and McDyess all share roughly 20mpg duties during their regular game rotations. Where does Bargs get 30?

BOS - One of the deepest teams up front when healthy. No way they sit some of those guys over Bargs, especially with the value they put on their defensive system.

Miami - They would be the laughing stock of the league if they walked Bosh and Bargs out as their frontcourt. Again, Bosh is the better, more efficient player and with him on the court there is NO WAY they put someone like Bargs beside him and expect to still have championship aspirations. He would at most get Bosh's rest time minutes.

Orlando - Van Gundy likes to play small ball with Dwight in the middle 3 wings and PG. Bass and Anderson are both 21mpg guys. Again, at most he'd have a Gortat role as a 15mpg backup at the C.

OKC - This is about the only team I could see him worked into the front court rotation in order to help spread the floor, but I don't think a cost conscious GM like Presti paying 9mil a season for a backup shooter who doesn't play defense.

There are 48 minutes to go around in the PF position and another 48 minutes at the C position, in Miami they would only need to play Bargnani and Bosh together 10 minutes a game for Bosh to get 32 and Bargs to get 28 minutes a game. Van Gundy plays small ball because he never had a PF to put next to dwight, he had the 125 million dollar man so dont give me the "he likes" to play small ball. No he deals with what he has. And I dont find it ludacris that Bargnani would get minutes on a team featuring a PF he outplayed 2 years ago and a 40 year old shaq.

SAS would probably play Bargnani 25-28 minutes maybe more depending on matchups because both blair and bonner are too small to play centre so you are forced to play duncan at centre and hes too old for that ****.

[Cake Walk]

I conveniently left out Chicago because he would not get minutes there. Bargnani being a 3rd of 4th option on those teams would suite them well. They are in need of stretch bigs and Bargnani would not be so exhausted doing everything on offense he can actually put some effort into defence.

I dont think anyone would receive less touches on the teams I mentioned because of Bargnani, because the offence would not be run through him he would be the recipient of passes.

I'm with Sensi here, first of all being a stretch big is not that important if the stretch big is inefficient on the offensive end. Add poor defense on the other side and you just have a sub-par player.

I know you left Chicago out, but since I also watch them quite a bit I'll use them as an example since they are a contender just as much as SA, Boston - just switch the parts out. Chi has a frontcourt with Noah, Boozer, Gibson who are all much better players than Bargnani at this point of their careers, even Gibson. Why is Miami winning? Because of tremendous Rose play, a killer frontcourt, and reliable wingmen like Deng. You throw in Bargnani as a third option and what do you get?

1. Frontcourt loses most of its defensive ability on the inside.
2. All of Chicago's wingmen are wondering where to stand when a 7 footer is taking up their 3 point space. Oh no!
3. Offensive rebounding and hustle, I don't think even a guy like Noah could make Bargnani wake up in his court awareness.

Who scores the points? They have a nice distribution between Rose, Brewer, Deng, Boozer, and Noah taking all the points. Bargnani screws up a team's chemistry completely, people don't understand how problematic it is to build around him, and he's not worth it.

So using your theory that he is the 'recipient of passes' try and apply that to any of the 3 points I outlined there. He turns into a 3 point shooter, and he's not one of the better ones in the league. Add to the fact that since he's a PF/C you have to completely build around him. I don't blame Bosh for leaving this disaster.

I conveniently left out Chicago because he would not get minutes there.

What are you arguing against? He doesnt fit on one contender? I already said he would not get minutes there. Calm down. And no Gibson is not better than Bargnani.

[Nothingface]

The anti-Bargs stuff is hilarious.

I love how so many are quick to say that he has no trade value.

You guys say this, and other stuff to each other so often you forget where you first heard it.

Sadly it seems there are a group of posters who must have their anti-Bargnani circle jerk on this board every day.