Tank World Order

[Pooh_Jeter]

Targeting Siakam, FVV or even OG trades, I wonder if teams would be more willing to deal picks for 2021/22, or deep into the future like what happened with Jrue and even Paul George.

I'd imagine in terms of trade value it's something like FVV, OG, Siakam. I think all would return positive value for sure. Harder to find an ideal Siakam fit though I think, but I'm sure there are some teams that still really covet him.

Lowry I think can definitely return a first rounder and maybe even a solid prospect with that. I imagine Powell is 2nd rounders and/or a C+ prospect.

[KrazyP]

We just had 6 years of perennial 50+ win teams that had pretty much the same success in the playoffs (but with a championship).

6 years, many of which were due to our lottery picks like DeRozan and JV. Our lottery picks helped us obtain a championship team by trading them away for Kawhi and Gasol.

Lottery picks don't exactly have to develop into stars -- we can trade them for stars given the right conditions.

Lottery picks are great.

I'll dismiss this thought process, too.

The Raptors lottery picks were only valuable because they won a lot of games. Without those wins, DeMar isn't valuable enough to bring in Kawhi, and JV isn't valuable enough to bring in Marc Gasol. And Kawhi and Gasol aren't worth pursuing if the team isn't already very good. So, in saying that, Siakam is a valuable trade asset because he's an all-star, much like DeMar. And OG Anunoby is a more valuable trade asset today than JV was when he was moved for Marc Gasol. That's just how it works. You lose, everyone's value goes down. You win, everyone's value goes up. Try and picture realistic trades the Spurs and Grizzlies could make right now for DeMar and JV, or even a year ago.

The Raptors can't use Stanley Johnson and Alex Len as the key pieces to bring back a special player, either, so we know that lottery picks aren't great as a general statement.

100% bang on.

The Raptors asset base now is very similar to what Ujiri had when he first took over the team. If he was able to slowly build a championship from that point without tanking, what makes people think tanking is an absolute necessity now?

The Tank World Order commanders around here pushing the tank agenda so adamantly suffer from the cognitive bias known as the Availability Heuristic. The Durants, Lebrons, Hardens dominate highlights, marketing and news so people start thinking they are more commonly available via the draft than they actually are. Less attention is paid to complete busts and journeymen players that out number franchise players picked in the lottery by like a 10:1 margin. If somebody actually did a statistical breakdown of lottery picks, we'd find the average player picked in the lottery is actually not that far off from Fred VanVleet....i.e. an average starter/decent bench player. I think this is something Tank Nation doesnt really understand.

There are actually multiple ways to build a contender....the only real commonality between the way contenders are built is good management that makes logical decisions and a strong scouting, coaching and development system. The rest of it just comes down to random luck. Luck is something that the human mind often struggles to factor in when assessing risk/reward scenarios.

[Rasho is god]

Here's an illustration:

The 3 teams with the top 3 picks all rank the top 3 players exactly the same.

Pick one is a bust. Pick two is an allstar. But pick 3 ends up being a franchise player.

Ppl want to say the team that picked 3rd is the best drafting team. But that's NOT the case at all. There is no discernable way to rank the teams in drafting ability because their rankings were identical. The third team just got lucky because they happened to fall in the correct position in the sequencing of picks.

All 3 teams would have ended up with the franchise player if they picked 3rd.

I will say one thing about this. I think the Raptors put work ethic and character way in front. I would bet they interview in a very different way that gives you answers without asking specific questions. Not all teams would use a test, and I'm not sure you could make draftees write one (like DISC ec.), but there are other ways around that to determine what people are like. The interpretation and follow up questions are so key there though after the first evaluation, so you can even use this method and be bad at it.

I'm going to say this is a certainty, because they keep finding those same people.

Now... nobody here is privy to any of that... so whatever they guess right.... pure luck.

Once you understand that matters outside or great talent more than most things, when the talent level is close... well it's easier. But there are at least two guys here that specifically would not value high character and would take the best talent and waste the pick.

Afraid to say the names so as to not have your argument debunked in a few words.

Pascal - the player you were defending, didn't pick up a basketball for 4 months, tried to trip Embiid in the playoffs, said he had personal issues going on in the bubble, and then he was just disciplined for an attitude problem

Maybe instead of pointing the fingers at others, you should look at yourself and your evaluation of people and their psyche.

High character guys lol. So what, you wouldn't draft Lebron because was immature? Or sign him after the decision? We have supported Kyle who has been a headcase since the day he got here, the guy who was going to hold out, was ready to leave and only came back because Masai paid him

So much for high character guys you keep talking about. Yeah, if we have abusers, let's not draft them, but if they have some attitude problems or have hubris about themselves, then if they are that good you can work with it.

And the organization clearly has an eye for high character guys in TD, or an egotistical Fred who said I am not a bench player.

So bad man, try again

The hate here for Pascal is so bizarre. So he is a low character guy because of two instances in his whole career where he got frustrated by losing. Wow a guy who really wants to win, what a POS am I right. Also he didn't respond the best to an unprecedented world wide pandemic. A high character guy would be out there risking the health and safety of himself and others.

[ItsDanger]

Afraid to say the names so as to not have your argument debunked in a few words.

Pascal - the player you were defending, didn't pick up a basketball for 4 months, tried to trip Embiid in the playoffs, said he had personal issues going on in the bubble, and then he was just disciplined for an attitude problem

Maybe instead of pointing the fingers at others, you should look at yourself and your evaluation of people and their psyche.

High character guys lol. So what, you wouldn't draft Lebron because was immature? Or sign him after the decision? We have supported Kyle who has been a headcase since the day he got here, the guy who was going to hold out, was ready to leave and only came back because Masai paid him

So much for high character guys you keep talking about. Yeah, if we have abusers, let's not draft them, but if they have some attitude problems or have hubris about themselves, then if they are that good you can work with it.

And the organization clearly has an eye for high character guys in TD, or an egotistical Fred who said I am not a bench player.

So bad man, try again

Underrated part of the post. I gave Fred a pass last season because he obviously wanted to produce better numbers for a contract. But he got his money, time to put team first. I see ego issue growing with him. Siakam gets all the criticism but Fred is the dude off to the side who evades it. Our soft media doesn't help expose it because I'm sure they know.

[Steelo Green]

I will say one thing about this. I think the Raptors put work ethic and character way in front. I would bet they interview in a very different way that gives you answers without asking specific questions. Not all teams would use a test, and I'm not sure you could make draftees write one (like DISC ec.), but there are other ways around that to determine what people are like. The interpretation and follow up questions are so key there though after the first evaluation, so you can even use this method and be bad at it.

I'm going to say this is a certainty, because they keep finding those same people.

Now... nobody here is privy to any of that... so whatever they guess right.... pure luck.

Once you understand that matters outside or great talent more than most things, when the talent level is close... well it's easier. But there are at least two guys here that specifically would not value high character and would take the best talent and waste the pick.

Afraid to say the names so as to not have your argument debunked in a few words.

Pascal - the player you were defending, didn't pick up a basketball for 4 months, tried to trip Embiid in the playoffs, said he had personal issues going on in the bubble, and then he was just disciplined for an attitude problem

Maybe instead of pointing the fingers at others, you should look at yourself and your evaluation of people and their psyche.

High character guys lol. So what, you wouldn't draft Lebron because was immature? Or sign him after the decision? We have supported Kyle who has been a headcase since the day he got here, the guy who was going to hold out, was ready to leave and only came back because Masai paid him

So much for high character guys you keep talking about. Yeah, if we have abusers, let's not draft them, but if they have some attitude problems or have hubris about themselves, then if they are that good you can work with it.

And the organization clearly has an eye for high character guys in TD, or an egotistical Fred who said I am not a bench player.

So bad man, try again

The hate here for Pascal is so bizarre. So he is a low character guy because of two instances in his whole career where he got frustrated by losing. Wow a guy who really wants to win, what a POS am I right. Also he didn't respond the best to an unprecedented world wide pandemic. A high character guy would be out there risking the health and safety of himself and others.

You're saying a multimillionaire couldn't find a way to train in a safe manner? I don't think that was the case - I think he just was lazy.

And, funny you talk about high character guys risking the health and safety of others, did you forget this guy:

[KL78192020]

Afraid to say the names so as to not have your argument debunked in a few words.

Pascal - the player you were defending, didn't pick up a basketball for 4 months, tried to trip Embiid in the playoffs, said he had personal issues going on in the bubble, and then he was just disciplined for an attitude problem

Maybe instead of pointing the fingers at others, you should look at yourself and your evaluation of people and their psyche.

High character guys lol. So what, you wouldn't draft Lebron because was immature? Or sign him after the decision? We have supported Kyle who has been a headcase since the day he got here, the guy who was going to hold out, was ready to leave and only came back because Masai paid him

So much for high character guys you keep talking about. Yeah, if we have abusers, let's not draft them, but if they have some attitude problems or have hubris about themselves, then if they are that good you can work with it.

And the organization clearly has an eye for high character guys in TD, or an egotistical Fred who said I am not a bench player.

So bad man, try again

The hate here for Pascal is so bizarre. So he is a low character guy because of two instances in his whole career where he got frustrated by losing. Wow a guy who really wants to win, what a POS am I right. Also he didn't respond the best to an unprecedented world wide pandemic. A high character guy would be out there risking the health and safety of himself and others.

You're saying a multimillionaire couldn't find a way to train in a safe manner? I don't think that was the case - I think he just was lazy.

And, funny you talk about high character guys risking the health and safety of others, did you forget this guy:

The bubble is once in a lifetime, honestly whatever its done lots of guys didn't touch a ball for those months. I don't think its character issue **** happens.

Pascal just isn't a 1st option at the end of the day. He's at best 2nd or even 3rd option, hes just not that talented. Considering where he was picked and what we got, it was great value at the time. Now hes paid like a 1 option and can't deliver.

[Steelo Green]

The hate here for Pascal is so bizarre. So he is a low character guy because of two instances in his whole career where he got frustrated by losing. Wow a guy who really wants to win, what a POS am I right. Also he didn't respond the best to an unprecedented world wide pandemic. A high character guy would be out there risking the health and safety of himself and others.

You're saying a multimillionaire couldn't find a way to train in a safe manner? I don't think that was the case - I think he just was lazy.

And, funny you talk about high character guys risking the health and safety of others, did you forget this guy:

The bubble is once in a lifetime, honestly whatever its done lots of guys didn't touch a ball for those months. I don't think its character issue **** happens.

Pascal just isn't a 1st option at the end of the day. He's at best 2nd or even 3rd option, hes just not that talented. Considering where he was picked and what we got, it was great value at the time. Now hes paid like a 1 option and can't deliver.

Did your job stop because of COVID?

No - you had to work your way around it.

Pascals job is to be fit and ready as an athlete and he didn’t care to do that. He even said he just “lost track of time”.

If he was at home all day not leaving his condo he was literally what watching movies and playing games?

To not have some red flags about his work ethic or focus is wishful thinking.

I do agree with regard to Pascals talent being exposed of course but if your work ethic falls off then what you were good at will fall off.

[Hero]

If the season ended and the Raptors finish 6-8 with a swift first round exit. How memorable and enjoyable would that be?

Or the Raptors tank and actually get a young promising piece to build towards the future. Even more beneficial as the team isn't even playing before fans or at home so it's not like they're at the arena watching the team rack up the Ls.

It wasn't enjoyable when they were swept by Washington, either. Should they have blown the team up after that?

What if we had replaced Casey then? We can't replay what happened in the past.
Our current squad is lacking in talent. What else can we do at this point but rebuild.

[KL78192020]

If the season ended and the Raptors finish 6-8 with a swift first round exit. How memorable and enjoyable would that be?

Or the Raptors tank and actually get a young promising piece to build towards the future. Even more beneficial as the team isn't even playing before fans or at home so it's not like they're at the arena watching the team rack up the Ls.

It wasn't enjoyable when they were swept by Washington, either. Should they have blown the team up after that?

What if we had replaced Casey then? We can't replay what happened in the past.
Our current squad is lacking in talent. What else can we do at this point but rebuild.

Yea I mean the Kawhi trade took a whole bunch of lucky circumstances to happen. He had to demand a trade, Pop didn't want him trade to rival Lakers, his value was also lower coming of injuries.

The chances of getting another Kawhi are probably lower than getting a star via the draft. Again it also took two lottery players to get Kawhi in the first place. Can the Raptors trade for Harden with their current asset base? Probably not, they need to re-tool before they can look at trading for another star, if they did somehow pull it of the team would be left barren and wouldn't be able to win. The price will be much higher than what they paid for Kawhi.

[Steelo Green]

If the season ended and the Raptors finish 6-8 with a swift first round exit. How memorable and enjoyable would that be?

Or the Raptors tank and actually get a young promising piece to build towards the future. Even more beneficial as the team isn't even playing before fans or at home so it's not like they're at the arena watching the team rack up the Ls.

It wasn't enjoyable when they were swept by Washington, either. Should they have blown the team up after that?

What if we had replaced Casey then? We can't replay what happened in the past.
Our current squad is lacking in talent. What else can we do at this point but rebuild.

Replaced Casey then was a definite blunder by Masai. If he was fired a few years later for the same things, then it’s a definite X on his resume.

Maybe the new coach would have made Demar not be so embedded as a player by then and maybe could have grown earlier on D and in terms of his three point shot and playing off the ball.

Again - not saying it would happen but Demar was 25 against the Wizards versus 27 against Cleveland, so there was a chance a new voice could have helped him become a better player for winning.

[Pooh_Jeter]

The Raptors won a championship so clearly what they are doing works is such a pointless argument. First off, its relying on what happened in the past. Secondly, as I think everyone can agree, no team building method is perfect. Masai himself would surely point out there were mistakes or missteps made along the way. As there is with any team regardless of their track record.

Warriors fans aren't exactly happy with every move that has been made along the way and the team isn't in great shape right now. Do you see them saying "Ah, we won a few championships this team is good for 20 years?" Do you see this with Lakers and Celtics fans? Such a loser mentality trying to preserve some past success. This extends to management too, they aren't resting on their laurels either. Imagine if after one championship all these organizations didn't find new ways to get better or notice when the team needed a change.

[Rasho is god]

The Raptors won a championship so clearly what they are doing works is such a pointless argument. First off, its relying on what happened in the past. Secondly, as I think everyone can agree, no team building method is perfect. Masai himself would surely point out there were mistakes or missteps made along the way. As there is with any team regardless of their track record.

Warriors fans aren't exactly happy with every move that has been made along the way and the team isn't in great shape right now. Do you see them saying "Ah, we won a few championships this team is good for 20 years?" Do you see this with Lakers and Celtics fans? Such a loser mentality trying to preserve some past success. This extends to management too, they aren't resting on their laurels either. Imagine if after one championship all these organizations didn't find new ways to get better or notice when the team needed a change.

Tanking is the epitome of a loser mentality.

[KL78192020]

The Raptors won a championship so clearly what they are doing works is such a pointless argument. First off, its relying on what happened in the past. Secondly, as I think everyone can agree, no team building method is perfect. Masai himself would surely point out there were mistakes or missteps made along the way. As there is with any team regardless of their track record.

Warriors fans aren't exactly happy with every move that has been made along the way and the team isn't in great shape right now. Do you see them saying "Ah, we won a few championships this team is good for 20 years?" Do you see this with Lakers and Celtics fans? Such a loser mentality trying to preserve some past success. This extends to management too, they aren't resting on their laurels either. Imagine if after one championship all these organizations didn't find new ways to get better or notice when the team needed a change.

Tanking is the epitome of a loser mentality.

There is no such thing as intentional losing. Players don't purposely lose, nor to coaches.

Its up to management to set a direction for the team, if the Raptors lose the majority of there games is that loser mentality or just lack of talent?

[Skeezo]

If the season ended and the Raptors finish 6-8 with a swift first round exit. How memorable and enjoyable would that be?

Or the Raptors tank and actually get a young promising piece to build towards the future. Even more beneficial as the team isn't even playing before fans or at home so it's not like they're at the arena watching the team rack up the Ls.

It wasn't enjoyable when they were swept by Washington, either. Should they have blown the team up after that?

What if we had replaced Casey then? We can't replay what happened in the past.
Our current squad is lacking in talent. What else can we do at this point but rebuild.

Agreed, and did we not also make our famous G.Vasquez trade for future 1st and 2nd Rd picks which turned out to be OG and Powell after that sweep? Not to mention, the tragic signing of DMC that offseason... In other words, it's not like Masai stood pat back then, and it's not like people are saying blow it all up now. It's merely about managing assets that are about to expire and right now Lowry and Powell are on the clock.

[VanWest82]

Many years ago there was a team named the Portand Trailblazers. Although they had been good for a time bad luck had snake bitten them once again and their two young corner stones, Roy and Oden, were forced to retire. Even though they had a promising young core of Lamarcus Aldridge, Nic Batum, and Wes Matthews they decided to trade veteran Gerald Wallace to the Nets for what wound up being the 6th pick in the draft. Portland selected Damian Lillard.

There's more than one way to acquire superstars. Having good players that other teams want is an advantage because it allows for more options than just being bad and hoping you get lucky.

[KL78192020]

Many years ago there was a team named the Portand Trailblazers. Although they had been good for a time bad luck had snake bitten them once again and their two young corner stones, Roy and Oden, were forced to retire. Even though they had a promising young core of Lamarcus Aldridge, Nic Batum, and Wes Matthews they decided to trade veteran Gerald Wallace to the Nets for what wound up being the 6th pick in the draft. Portland selected Damian Lillard.

There's more than one way to acquire superstars. Having good players that other teams want is an advantage because it allows for more options than just being bad and hoping you get lucky.

Its a shame Billy King isn't around anymore. I mean he single handedly built the Blazers and Celtics with giving away those picks.

Are there any comparable GMs still out there who can be hosed? If Lowry could be traded for a lottery pick that deal would be done.

[VanWest82]

Many years ago there was a team named the Portand Trailblazers. Although they had been good for a time bad luck had snake bitten them once again and their two young corner stones, Roy and Oden, were forced to retire. Even though they had a promising young core of Lamarcus Aldridge, Nic Batum, and Wes Matthews they decided to trade veteran Gerald Wallace to the Nets for what wound up being the 6th pick in the draft. Portland selected Damian Lillard.

There's more than one way to acquire superstars. Having good players that other teams want is an advantage because it allows for more options than just being bad and hoping you get lucky.

Its a shame Billy King isn't around anymore. I mean he single handedly built the Blazers and Celtics with giving away those picks.

Are there any comparable GMs still out there who can be hosed? If Lowry could be traded for a lottery pick that deal would be done.

Good point. Boogie and Butler got traded for what should have been Jamal Murray only they took Dunn and Buddy Hield instead. Those deals are out there.

[ImaBeatDatAzz]

this game v pelicans decides tank or not

[ImaBeatDatAzz]

holy, this is our core???????? LMAO. OG cannot hit a shot to safe his life anymore, and siakam cannot pass a basketball

[Pooh_Jeter]

The Raptors won a championship so clearly what they are doing works is such a pointless argument. First off, its relying on what happened in the past. Secondly, as I think everyone can agree, no team building method is perfect. Masai himself would surely point out there were mistakes or missteps made along the way. As there is with any team regardless of their track record.

Warriors fans aren't exactly happy with every move that has been made along the way and the team isn't in great shape right now. Do you see them saying "Ah, we won a few championships this team is good for 20 years?" Do you see this with Lakers and Celtics fans? Such a loser mentality trying to preserve some past success. This extends to management too, they aren't resting on their laurels either. Imagine if after one championship all these organizations didn't find new ways to get better or notice when the team needed a change.

Tanking is the epitome of a loser mentality.

There is no such thing as intentional losing. Players don't purposely lose, nor to coaches.

Its up to management to set a direction for the team, if the Raptors lose the majority of there games is that loser mentality or just lack of talent?

Couldn't agree more. If anything, the team will be playing their butts off because they are largely unproven guys trying to make their mark. If they overachieve that's perfectly fine. Even the process Sixers weren't intentionally trying to lose (they started 3-0 one year), their roster just got totally razed to the ground. The Raptors (and no rebuild really) has to ever go that far. One step backwards to take multiple steps forward.