Has it not become overwhelmingly clear (even to management) it's time to blow this up?

[KL78192020]

Conley and Gasol were in their mid 30s, our "core" is like 28.

JV and Demar two key starters were also young when they got traded they were the core back then. JV was around 26 and Demar 29.

Right. But both of those moves are examples of us not tanking in order to setup for the championship. Not sure what point you were trying to make here? The tanking move would have been to trade those players for draft picks or young talent, we did the opposite.

The point is the "core'" doesn't mean anything. No need to get attached to any core if theres a good trade to be made to rebuild or compete. This current "core" is a lottery team.

[deck]

I hope you appreciate the irony of your post, highlighting GSW and Spurs as 2 examples of teams that adopted Tanking as a viable strategy and it working out. In fact, they are the EXACT OPPOSITE of that, lol... they are 2 examples that show how Team Compete works, lol. 2 of the 3 great dynasties in our generation, neither of them tanked,

Start with GSW. They have always been compete compete compete.. the year they got Curry, they had Ellis, Crawford, Jackson, Maggette, Biedrins, Bellinelli... AKA, seasoned guys trying to make the make playoffs! they just weren't that good in a stacked west and finished 10th!! Or in other words 'the scary middle'.... How on gods green earth is that tanking? The year before that, they finished 9th.. the year before that they finished 8th, and infamously knocked of the MAvs in Round 1.. GSW has ALWAYS been about competing. Even the core 3 of their dynasty, outside of Curry at 7, none were drafted in the top 10?!?! Green was drafted in the second round for gods sake... sorry man, GSW does nothing but prove my point, not yours.

As for Spurs, again, another prime example of a team that did NOT tear down a single darn thing, and built a dynasty through competition and instilling a winning mindset. Spurs 95/96.. finish second in West with a team full of legit players.. Robinson, Elliot, Avery, Del Negro, Perdue... 96/97, Robinson goes down and their seasons goes down the toilet, yet they do NOT trade any of these guys.. they get Duncan. 97/98, Duncan joins a team that still has Elliot, Avery, Del NEgro, PErdue, of course Robinson, and they're back in the playoffs. They never say 'ah, we've got a new timeline with Duncan, lets go tell Duncan that were going to trade everyone for draft capital and tell him its ok to lose for a couple more years so we can tank, cause thats the only way we can get talent and surround him with a bunch of kids'... nope, it was the opposite, it was 'lets go!! lets get it!! lets compete!!!' The 2 remaining pillars of the Spurs / Duncan Dynasty, Parker and Ginobli, were acquired while competing, drafted 28th and 57th!!!

Man, some of ya'll posts are hilarious.. trying to turn 2 franchises who embody competition and winning, and trying to use them as
an example of teams that blew it up and embodied a tanking mentality? Magical stuff, really.

And not once did I say we can build a team with a bunch of second rounders and undrafted players, so stop the nonsense.

I think you should face the fact, there has been no team in NBA history that has taken the approach of 'blow it all up, lets tank for years' and done anything remotely impressive. Facts.

Bingo! Spurs and Warriors are two horrendous examples given the fact they never gutted their team. They kept a treadmill core of guys like Monta Ellis, Stephen Jackson, Corey Maggette and Andris Biedrins. They then landed Curry and then managed to land Draymond and Klay the following year.

The Spurs are an even worse example. They won nearly 60 games in 1995-96. Then Robinson got hurt and missed the first two months of the year then he got hurt again and missed the rest of the year. Sean Elliot also missed more than half the year. They then got some lottery luck and got Tim Duncan which set them up for the next couple of decades.

I think people are shocked when they find out that no team has ever gutted their team and went onto do anything. But it's an absolute fact. As impressive as the returns the Jazz got for Mitchell and Gobert, they still need to do the hardest part and that is find franchise talent. Everyone was hyping up OKC and the job Presti has done and yet all that guy has drafted in three years is Josh Giddey. They now have a core of SGA and Giddey. I don't think anyone, even Canadians and Australians think that's a championship core. Now they are hovering around .500 and in that play-in range which is likely going to put them out of the running for Wembanyama and Scoot. People don't realize how hard this stuff is. You have to be insanely lucky in the lottery and the draft class to land that franchise player. Then once you do land him, you have to continue to add pieces around him and that's no easy task especially if you have already gutted your team. You now have to develop not only your franchise player but the supporting cast as well.

Why do people keep saying this? OKC won 44 games and was the 6th seed in 2019/20. They've tanked for 2 years total and got Giddey and Holmgren. You're making it seem like they only made 1 draft pick the past 3 years, one of which they weren't even tanking. They also traded for SGA. They have 7 extra firsts (many lightly or zero protections) over the next 4 years. They aren't even close to a finished product and it's been literally 2 years.

And of course the Spurs weren't going to tear it all down. Robinson finished freaking 2nd in 1996 MVP voting and won the award in 1995. Does anyone actually think we'd trade Joel Embiid (2nd in MVP voting 2021. How'd they get him again?) just because we got a high pick? Guess what we don't have though? An MVP level player. The comparison to the Raptors situation is just dumb. The '97 Spurs are one of the most egregious tanking teams of all-time. Just because they only did it for 1 year doesn't mean they didn't tank their ass off.

To the "have to be insanely lucky in the draft" crowd: which is more likely? Finding a franchise player in the lottery or trading for Kawhi? And if your answer is Kawhi, please name the other finals MVP level players who have been traded in their primes?

Bottom line: completely bottoming out is a fairly new strategy and the results aren't completely in. PHI did it and they got an MVP candidate out of it. OKC is tbd. Both those teams might fail. But I'd also ask how is GSW doing with their one year tank for Wiseman? Did keeping their team together have any impact on whether they botched that pick?

OKC's rebuild goes all the way back to Harden and Westbrook. Some of the picks they have coming in 2024 and 2025 are still from those deals. I would say they fully committed to the rebuild strategy after failing to retain Durrant in 2016.

Now that said, they are extremely well positioned going forward, and are a great example of what a good planned rebuild can look like. But is has definitely been longer than 2 years (more like 7 years).

[Johnny Bball]

JV and Demar two key starters were also young when they got traded they were the core back then. JV was around 26 and Demar 29.

Right. But both of those moves are examples of us not tanking in order to setup for the championship. Not sure what point you were trying to make here? The tanking move would have been to trade those players for draft picks or young talent, we did the opposite.

The point is the "core'" doesn't mean anything. No need to get attached to any core if theres a good trade to be made to rebuild or compete. This current "core" is a lottery team.

Was last years core a lottery team?

[TorontoBarneys]

Right. But both of those moves are examples of us not tanking in order to setup for the championship. Not sure what point you were trying to make here? The tanking move would have been to trade those players for draft picks or young talent, we did the opposite.

The point is the "core'" doesn't mean anything. No need to get attached to any core if theres a good trade to be made to rebuild or compete. This current "core" is a lottery team.

Was last years core a lottery team?

Are you doing that thing again where you ignore the state of 29 other teams?

[KL78192020]

Right. But both of those moves are examples of us not tanking in order to setup for the championship. Not sure what point you were trying to make here? The tanking move would have been to trade those players for draft picks or young talent, we did the opposite.

The point is the "core'" doesn't mean anything. No need to get attached to any core if theres a good trade to be made to rebuild or compete. This current "core" is a lottery team.

Was last years core a lottery team?

No, but alot of other teams have gotten better compared to last year to surpass the Raptors.

1. Nets - Just being healthy and a new coach is win for them. If KD is injured longer than four weeks they could fall just like last year.
2. Cavs - Mitchell trade
3. Hawks - Murray trade
4. Indy - Hali trade

Those are all teams that were behind the Raptors last year that are now ahead of them.

[Johnny Bball]

The point is the "core'" doesn't mean anything. No need to get attached to any core if theres a good trade to be made to rebuild or compete. This current "core" is a lottery team.

Was last years core a lottery team?

No, but alot of other teams have gotten better compared to last year to surpass the Raptors.

1. Nets - Just being healthy and a new coach is win for them. If KD is injured longer than four weeks they could fall just like last year.
2. Cavs - Mitchell trade
3. Hawks - Murray trade
4. Indy - Hali trade

Those are all teams that were behind the Raptors last year that are now ahead of them.

And some teams got worse ATL/Bulls/Heat. Do you think those teams ypou listed improvements accounts for the win difference with the exact same core?

[KrazyP]

Bingo! Spurs and Warriors are two horrendous examples given the fact they never gutted their team. They kept a treadmill core of guys like Monta Ellis, Stephen Jackson, Corey Maggette and Andris Biedrins. They then landed Curry and then managed to land Draymond and Klay the following year.

The Spurs are an even worse example. They won nearly 60 games in 1995-96. Then Robinson got hurt and missed the first two months of the year then he got hurt again and missed the rest of the year. Sean Elliot also missed more than half the year. They then got some lottery luck and got Tim Duncan which set them up for the next couple of decades.

I think people are shocked when they find out that no team has ever gutted their team and went onto do anything. But it's an absolute fact. As impressive as the returns the Jazz got for Mitchell and Gobert, they still need to do the hardest part and that is find franchise talent. Everyone was hyping up OKC and the job Presti has done and yet all that guy has drafted in three years is Josh Giddey. They now have a core of SGA and Giddey. I don't think anyone, even Canadians and Australians think that's a championship core. Now they are hovering around .500 and in that play-in range which is likely going to put them out of the running for Wembanyama and Scoot. People don't realize how hard this stuff is. You have to be insanely lucky in the lottery and the draft class to land that franchise player. Then once you do land him, you have to continue to add pieces around him and that's no easy task especially if you have already gutted your team. You now have to develop not only your franchise player but the supporting cast as well.

Really good points about OKC and the difficulties of tanking effectively.

The Cavs definitely tanked for LeBron. I think your broader point is well made though.

Whether a team gets a top draft pick from injuries, tanking, or just naturally sucking, the point is the best players are usually at the top of the draft. So whether the spurs got lucky with an injury or tanked to get Duncan, it doesn't really matter they were able to build championship teams around him.

Curry was a top 7 pick. He wasn't a 20th or 30th pick, regardless of how they got him the important thing is they got him with a top pick. The Raptors can rest OG/Siakam and try pull what the Spurs did to get Duncan.

Its a star driven league, the data doesn't lie the best players are in the lottery. Is it perfect? No, but it gives you better odds.

Lottery Picks(1–14) → 108/420 = 25.7% probability of All-Star
Non Lottery Picks(1st Rd) → 35/449 = 7.8% probability of All-Star
Non Lottery Picks(All) → 57/1322 = 4.3% probability of All-Star

25% chance at all-star = 75% of non all-star which is probably the reason why the majority of teams that implement a rigid tanking strategy end up mediocre.

Go back to the Wiggins draft, the draft for which TWO on this forum started. Teams that tanked long and hard after that havent exactly proven tanking leads to success.

Between 2014-2020, these are the teams that tanked the hardest (in order to arrive at this list, I gave 14 pts for #1 picks, 13pts for #2 picks, 12 pts for #3 picks and so on):

Kings - 7 Lottery Picks. Result? Mediocrity.
Wolves - 6 lottery picks. Result? Mediocrity.
76ers - 6 lottery picks. Result? Havent got out of the 2nd round.....they probably wont accomplish anything the Derozan Raptors didnt do.
Lakers - 5 lottery picks. Result? Won championship but thats because Lebron wanted to play there.
Knicks - 5 lottery picks. Result? Mediocrity.
Magic - 6 lottery picks. Result? Mediocrity. (they actually had to start a new tank recently because the first one produced nothing)
Suns - 7 lottery picks. Result? Were good for a couple of seasons but thats mainly because they traded for Chris Paul when nobody else wanted him. A lot of their lotto picks were complete busts (Len, Culver, Bender, Jackson....Booker,AYton,Bridges=nice middle of the pack treadmill team).

Summary:
Lakers, Suns, 76ers could be deemed a success but the argument is a bit shaky.
Wolves, Magic, Knicks, Kings were failures.

If the Raps continue to stink leading into the all-star break, I would have no qualms with tanking the rest of the way. That said, I do think perpetual tanking just to collect lotto picks is a fools game. Tanking is not a be all and end all strategy.....it relies on random luck.

[YogurtProducer]

The point is the "core'" doesn't mean anything. No need to get attached to any core if theres a good trade to be made to rebuild or compete. This current "core" is a lottery team.

Was last years core a lottery team?

No, but alot of other teams have gotten better compared to last year to surpass the Raptors.

1. Nets - Just being healthy and a new coach is win for them. If KD is injured longer than four weeks they could fall just like last year.
2. Cavs - Mitchell trade
3. Hawks - Murray trade
4. Indy - Hali trade

Those are all teams that were behind the Raptors last year that are now ahead of them.

Do you really believe ATL and IND are better than us? We are within 2.5 games of each other, we have had a **** ton of injuries, and lost a ton of games by less than 1 possession. We have a better SRS, NRTG, etc.

I really would take us in a playoff series against both those teams, and I think even the Cavs we match up beautifully

[KL78192020]

Was last years core a lottery team?

No, but alot of other teams have gotten better compared to last year to surpass the Raptors.

1. Nets - Just being healthy and a new coach is win for them. If KD is injured longer than four weeks they could fall just like last year.
2. Cavs - Mitchell trade
3. Hawks - Murray trade
4. Indy - Hali trade

Those are all teams that were behind the Raptors last year that are now ahead of them.

Do you really believe ATL and IND are better than us? We are within 2.5 games of each other, we have had a **** ton of injuries, and lost a ton of games by less than 1 possession. We have a better SRS, NRTG, etc.

I really would take us in a playoff series against both those teams, and I think even the Cavs we match up beautifully

Indy was much further ahead until their best player got injured and they've been losing.

We just got whooped by the Hawks on a back to back missing Capela their best defensive player and Bogi their 6th man. The Raptors lost plain a simple.

[Johnny Bball]

No, but alot of other teams have gotten better compared to last year to surpass the Raptors.

1. Nets - Just being healthy and a new coach is win for them. If KD is injured longer than four weeks they could fall just like last year.
2. Cavs - Mitchell trade
3. Hawks - Murray trade
4. Indy - Hali trade

Those are all teams that were behind the Raptors last year that are now ahead of them.

Do you really believe ATL and IND are better than us? We are within 2.5 games of each other, we have had a **** ton of injuries, and lost a ton of games by less than 1 possession. We have a better SRS, NRTG, etc.

I really would take us in a playoff series against both those teams, and I think even the Cavs we match up beautifully

Indy was much further ahead until their best player got injured and they've been losing.

We just got whooped by the Hawks on a back to back missing Capela their best defensive player and Bogi their 6th man. The Raptors lost plain a simple.

Hang on. And we just beat the knicks... but so what. The hawks and those other two are worse than last year. I'll ask again, do you really think the raptors win difference is just because those teams are better, and that the core changed in one year just from what those teams did?

[KL78192020]

Do you really believe ATL and IND are better than us? We are within 2.5 games of each other, we have had a **** ton of injuries, and lost a ton of games by less than 1 possession. We have a better SRS, NRTG, etc.

I really would take us in a playoff series against both those teams, and I think even the Cavs we match up beautifully

Indy was much further ahead until their best player got injured and they've been losing.

We just got whooped by the Hawks on a back to back missing Capela their best defensive player and Bogi their 6th man. The Raptors lost plain a simple.

Hang on. And we just beat the knicks... but so what. The hawks and those other two are worse than last year. I'll ask again, do you really think the raptors win difference is just because those teams are better, and that the core changed in one year just from what those teams did?

it’s not my opinion, the records indicate those teams are better than the Raptors and were halfway through the season. So its not a small sample size.

Those teams have better balanced rosters than the raptors and have younger rosters.

[Johnny Bball]

Indy was much further ahead until their best player got injured and they've been losing.

We just got whooped by the Hawks on a back to back missing Capela their best defensive player and Bogi their 6th man. The Raptors lost plain a simple.

Hang on. And we just beat the knicks... but so what. The hawks and those other two are worse than last year. I'll ask again, do you really think the raptors win difference is just because those teams are better, and that the core changed in one year just from what those teams did?

it’s not my opinion, the records indicate those teams are better than the Raptors and were halfway through the season. So its not a small sample size.

Those teams have better balanced rosters than the raptors and have younger rosters.

That doesn't answer the question. And its definately opinion, with three teams including the Hawks worse this year than they were last year.

Knicks, Cavs, Indy (for now), BRK have improved. But they aren't accounting for the difference in raptors record.

[Ell Curry]

Honestly, I'm equally surprised by so many other teams too. Can't believe Chicago has done absolutely nothing this year.

I bet on that. They seemed like a classic regression candidate.

Oh sorry, I meant I'm surprised they haven't made any changes considering the season they are having. I know they might lose their draft pick, which probably worries them a bit about blowing it up, but what's even the point of their season at this point? Or if they actually do want to try to win more, what's taking them so long to make some sort of positive change (other than them already regretting the last time they traded for immediate gains)?

Ah, my bad.

Yeah, they're in a weird place. I think since they don't own their pick they'll just do nothing, try to make the playoffs via the play-in and then trade Demar and Caruso in the summer and let Vucevic go and maybe try a 1 year tank next year, get Lonzo right and not overtax him and keep Lavine and Pat Williams. If they strike gold in the 2024 draft that's a passable top 4 and if they don't spend any more money they can squeeze in a center, which would give them a starting 5 if they can draft a forward, and Lavine will still only be 29 and the oldest guy in the lineup.

They might have to fire the GM to do it, though. He might be in the classic moral hazard situation where he made a bad deal (Vucevic for Wendell Carter, the Franz Wagner pick and a nice first this year) and now he has to double down because he can't go to the owner and say "hey we made the playoffs, but overall it didn't really work out so let me blow it up this summer even though we don't have a top rookie to build around." Though Reinsdorf is a terrible owner so maybe it would work with him.

[YogurtProducer]

Hang on. And we just beat the knicks... but so what. The hawks and those other two are worse than last year. I'll ask again, do you really think the raptors win difference is just because those teams are better, and that the core changed in one year just from what those teams did?

it’s not my opinion, the records indicate those teams are better than the Raptors and were halfway through the season. So its not a small sample size.

Those teams have better balanced rosters than the raptors and have younger rosters.

That doesn't answer the question. And its definately opinion, with three teams including the Hawks worse this year than they were last year.

Knicks, Cavs, Indy (for now), BRK have improved. But they aren't accounting for the difference in raptors record.

It’s really not worth it Johnny. Somehow the entire league improved so much it’s accounted for us losing 11 more games (if we continue this pace). We’re the only team who didn’t improve.

Also lol at saying half a season isn’t a small sample. We’ve seen teams (like us) go 27-14 in a half season sample (literally last year) but I don’t see anyone claiming we were a 54 win team.

We certainly not a 55 win team, but we’re also not a 35 win team. I don’t know what to say to anyone If they truly think we’re as bad as our record shows

[Johnny Bball]

it’s not my opinion, the records indicate those teams are better than the Raptors and were halfway through the season. So its not a small sample size.

Those teams have better balanced rosters than the raptors and have younger rosters.

That doesn't answer the question. And its definately opinion, with three teams including the Hawks worse this year than they were last year.

Knicks, Cavs, Indy (for now), BRK have improved. But they aren't accounting for the difference in raptors record.

It’s really not worth it Johnny. Somehow the entire league improved so much it’s accounted for us losing 11 more games (if we continue this pace). We’re the only team who didn’t improve.

Also lol at saying half a season isn’t a small sample. We’ve seen teams (like us) go 27-14 in a half season sample (literally last year) but I don’t see anyone claiming we were a 54 win team.

We certainly not a 55 win team, but we’re also not a 35 win team. I don’t know what to say to anyone If they truly think we’re as bad as our record shows

I agree with this and agree with anyone that says does being a 42 win team mattter? I'm not sure it does. I was trying to walk through to a point but I'll just go to the end.

We sucked in Tampa and nobody had faith in the core. We won 48 and everyone (I'm making generalizations) thought there was promise. We started this season bad and are playing badly, and we have the same core. If the core is the same, and other teams improved, does that matter as to whether the core has/had promise, what other teams do? It should not. We should be trying to compete agaisnt the best and if it was promisng enough last year, nothing has really changed in that regard with some teams betting better (well, BRK has raised the bar in the east, but they can explode in a second).

So what do I think has been the most dissapointing this year?

1) Nurse. This team isn't all that well coached. From AOTO that have too often been terrible, to waiting too long to stop the bleeding offensively or defensively, to giving up 44 points in the opening quarter, then 21 points like tonight. Nurse is one of the best at adjustments, any NBA coach will tell you that. What he doesn't seem to be good at and what he needs to delegate to anyone, is game prep. I can't count the number of games we have to come from behind. Our pnr offense has too often been non-existant, and our pnr defense should be better than it is.

2) FVV. I have no idea what's gone on with FVV but players don't go from being 40% 3 point shooters to 30% 3 point shooters very often. I would like to hope its just one very long slump. But it remains to be seen if FVV can turn it around. This team goes as Fred goes, and this could be either number one or two.

3) Shooting. We knew last year than everyone should be working on 3 point shooting in the summer. Sadly, looks like nobody did with the exception of Achiuwa lately (maybe). That to me is inexcusable. Not only was there no real improvement to start of this season, there is regression. Barnes can't shoot period this year after a hot start. He is finally finding other wyas to score after being benched by Nurse which if you ask me **** him up for a good 5 games. That can go under number 1.

To pile on with shoointg I don't know who Michael Prenger is, but he's the Raptors shooting coach and he should be shown the door. He is apparently a hard worker, but that isn't cutting it . Enough sycophantic hires from Iowa.

4) Injuries. Tough schedule up front and playing 16 games in 29 days is stupid and killed us for a month minimum.

With the exception of Fred, none of that is really about the core. so would they blow this team up? I really doubt they see it that way. If Fred has lost his ability to shoot and has become a liability.... is that even enough to kill the promise of who we have a start again? I really doubt they see it that way still (blowing it up). None of that is to say they won't tank the season if this team plays like crap unitl the trade deadline, just less likely they look to move more than one of FVV or Trent, which I presume was always going to happen, unless we were somehow leading the east.

[KL78192020]

it’s not my opinion, the records indicate those teams are better than the Raptors and were halfway through the season. So its not a small sample size.

Those teams have better balanced rosters than the raptors and have younger rosters.

That doesn't answer the question. And its definately opinion, with three teams including the Hawks worse this year than they were last year.

Knicks, Cavs, Indy (for now), BRK have improved. But they aren't accounting for the difference in raptors record.

It’s really not worth it Johnny. Somehow the entire league improved so much it’s accounted for us losing 11 more games (if we continue this pace). We’re the only team who didn’t improve.

Also lol at saying half a season isn’t a small sample. We’ve seen teams (like us) go 27-14 in a half season sample (literally last year) but I don’t see anyone claiming we were a 54 win team.

We certainly not a 55 win team, but we’re also not a 35 win team. I don’t know what to say to anyone If they truly think we’re as bad as our record shows

Yea sure this team is great, not a lottery team. Just lost to the bucks without their MVP in Giannis, all star in Middleon, the whole game and Lopez one of their better defenders in the 4th quarter. Raptors were fully healthy.

This team is not good, 35 wins is what they are. How did they not win this?

[UnbelievablyRAW]

We're better than a 35 win team but probably overachieved to get to 48 wins. The team is a middle of the pack team with no superstar offensive talent to carry our awful half court offense. Even if by some miracle we made it to the playoffs, we would be fodder in the first round due to the overall lack of shooting

This team isn't close to being good enough to beat the best teams 4 games out of 7, it would take a star player on top of this core that is already being overplayed to even get close. Even then we lack any bench to round out the roster.

There isn't any small change that can be made to fix the giant holes in this rosters construction and we're at the point where guys are due for large extensions. Even if we get back to where we were as a team last year, thats not enough to even get to the Finals. We'd need a significant upgrade offensively and with rim protection and you can't get that with the MLE or small trades

[KL78192020]

That doesn't answer the question. And its definately opinion, with three teams including the Hawks worse this year than they were last year.

Knicks, Cavs, Indy (for now), BRK have improved. But they aren't accounting for the difference in raptors record.

It’s really not worth it Johnny. Somehow the entire league improved so much it’s accounted for us losing 11 more games (if we continue this pace). We’re the only team who didn’t improve.

Also lol at saying half a season isn’t a small sample. We’ve seen teams (like us) go 27-14 in a half season sample (literally last year) but I don’t see anyone claiming we were a 54 win team.

We certainly not a 55 win team, but we’re also not a 35 win team. I don’t know what to say to anyone If they truly think we’re as bad as our record shows

I agree with this and agree with anyone that says does being a 42 win team mattter? I'm not sure it does. I was trying to walk through to a point but I'll just go to the end.

We sucked in Tampa and nobody had faith in the core. We won 48 and everyone (I'm making generalizations) thought there was promise. We started this season bad and are playing badly, and we have the same core. If the core is the same, and other teams improved, does that matter as to whether the core has/had promise, what other teams do? It should not. We should be trying to compete agaisnt the best and if it was promisng enough last year, nothing has really changed in that regard with some teams betting better (well, BRK has raised the bar in the east, but they can explode in a second).

So what do I think has been the most dissapointing this year?

1) Nurse. This team isn't all that well coached. From AOTO that have too often been terrible, to waiting too long to stop the bleeding offensively or defensively, to giving up 44 points in the opening quarter, then 21 points like tonight. Nurse is one of the best at adjustments, any NBA coach will tell you that. What he doesn't seem to be good at and what he needs to delegate to anyone, is game prep. I can't count the number of games we have to come from behind. Our pnr offense has too often been non-existant, and our pnr defense should be better than it is.

2) FVV. I have no idea what's gone on with FVV but players don't go from being 40% 3 point shooters to 30% 3 point shooters very often. I would like to hope its just one very long slump. But it remains to be seen if FVV can turn it around. This team goes as Fred goes, and this could be either number one or two.

3) Shooting. We knew last year than everyone should be working on 3 point shooting in the summer. Sadly, looks like nobody did with the exception of Achiuwa lately (maybe). That to me is inexcusable. Not only was there no real improvement to start of this season, there is regression. Barnes can't shoot period this year after a hot start. He is finally finding other wyas to score after being benched by Nurse which if you ask me **** him up for a good 5 games. That can go under number 1.

To pile on with shoointg I don't know who Michael Prenger is, but he's the Raptors shooting coach and he should be shown the door. He is apparently a hard worker, but that isn't cutting it . Enough sycophantic hires from Iowa.

4) Injuries. Tough schedule up front and playing 16 games in 29 days is stupid and killed us for a month minimum.

With the exception of Fred, none of that is really about the core. so would they blow this team up? I really doubt they see it that way. If Fred has lost his ability to shoot and has become a liability.... is that even enough to kill the promise of who we have a start again? I really doubt they see it that way still (blowing it up). None of that is to say they won't tank the season if this team plays like crap unitl the trade deadline, just less likely they look to move more than one of FVV or Trent, which I presume was always going to happen, unless we were somehow leading the east.

We can all make our assessments, but I mean why did they lose tonight? No Giannis no Middleton, and no Lopez in the 4th. How is this a 48 win team?

[v1n5anity]

I hope the rumors are true about the Raps informing teams that they'll make a move...and hopefully that move is FVV. Anybody else get the feeling that Masai & Bobby would love to deal FVV but just find it hard because of what FVV's contributed in the past?

[NotMyKawhi]

I hope the rumors are true about the Raps informing teams that they'll make a move...and hopefully that move is FVV. Anybody else get the feeling that Masai & Bobby would love to deal FVV but just find it hard because of what FVV's contributed in the past?

dyson daniels pick for fvv seems like the move for both teams