Siakam vs OG east conference semi finals

[KrazyP]

I am not sure I agree with that. Siakam and the guard should able to handle the handling / dribbling. Furthermore, we traded one of OG for a wing and a guard, that only resulted in .500, which clearly isnt a balancing issue, but lack of talent / skill.

Disagree. Lots of teams have forwards capable of handling the ball....that doesnt lead them to completely ignore the backcourt and fill it with trash.

For years the Raps basically had the worst (or close to the worst) guard rotation in the entire NBA. The roster was completely imbalanced because of the focus on the 6-9 movement. The fact that Malachi Flynn was actually part of the rotation here says a boatload.

Look at how a team like the Magic is built....Banchero/Wagner are both forwards capable of play making and handling the ball but the Magic still have multiple guys in the backcourt with basic NBA level guard skills.....Suggs, Fultz, Anthony, Harris which is significantly better than Schroder/Flynn or VanVleet backed up by nobody.

I'd argue the team actually looked half decent immediately after OG trade but it was too little too late as Siakam already had started to mail it in in anticipation of a trade.

Flynn was never part of the rotation, and the problem isn't the back court, but lack of shooting to space the floor.

It really has nothing to do with 6-9 movement, as we see other teams can make it work. It is just we overrated our development program (or we underrated some of the assistant coaches who left), particularly, our shooting improvement, which we believe we can fix players and stack up on non-shooters. Now we went with extreme opposite, and we have many shooters who can't defend.

Completely disagree. Roster balance was a major issue....it goes beyond just not having enough shooters.

During the VanVleet led era, he was the only guard in the lineup with basic NBA level shooting, passing and dribbling skills. When he left, they replaced him with Schroeder and Flynn became part of the rotation.

Can you point to me which successful team in the NBA this year had a guard rotation this bad?

[Indeed]

Our biggest issue in the 2022 and 2023 seasons was the bench production.

Nope, we started bench players on our lineup, the problem is lack of starters.
We failed to go big (lack a rim protector and rebounder).
We failed to go small (lack a 3 point shooting and ball penetration).

The reason we think a starting 3&D C and a rim pressure guard would make us much better, those are closer to starter than bench. Having Trent and a young Barnes don't put us to playoffs.

The Raptors scored the fewest points out of any bench in 2021-2022 and the team still won 48 games...let that sink in.

The Raptors scored the 2nd fewest points out of any bench in 2022-2023...let that sink in.

Not sure how you can say our bench wasn't the biggie issue.

Again, because we are playing bench players as starter.
Trent is a bench player and we start him.

And those stats are pretty flawed, if you use PER36, they are identical with other bench, mentioned multiple times. It should use advance stats in ORtg and DRtg instead, which is more fair.

[Indeed]

Disagree. Lots of teams have forwards capable of handling the ball....that doesnt lead them to completely ignore the backcourt and fill it with trash.

For years the Raps basically had the worst (or close to the worst) guard rotation in the entire NBA. The roster was completely imbalanced because of the focus on the 6-9 movement. The fact that Malachi Flynn was actually part of the rotation here says a boatload.

Look at how a team like the Magic is built....Banchero/Wagner are both forwards capable of play making and handling the ball but the Magic still have multiple guys in the backcourt with basic NBA level guard skills.....Suggs, Fultz, Anthony, Harris which is significantly better than Schroder/Flynn or VanVleet backed up by nobody.

I'd argue the team actually looked half decent immediately after OG trade but it was too little too late as Siakam already had started to mail it in in anticipation of a trade.

Flynn was never part of the rotation, and the problem isn't the back court, but lack of shooting to space the floor.

It really has nothing to do with 6-9 movement, as we see other teams can make it work. It is just we overrated our development program (or we underrated some of the assistant coaches who left), particularly, our shooting improvement, which we believe we can fix players and stack up on non-shooters. Now we went with extreme opposite, and we have many shooters who can't defend.

Completely disagree. Roster balance was a major issue....it goes beyond just not having enough shooters.

During the VanVleet led era, he was the only guard in the lineup with basic NBA level shooting, passing and dribbling skills. When he left, they replaced him with Schroeder and Flynn became part of the rotation.

Can you point to me which successful team in the NBA this year had a guard rotation this bad?

Flynn never beats out others for that role, so I think your point is invalid.
Meanwhile, Siakam plays like a guard, so I think you just to caught up in position, which doesn't make sense to me. Does other team have the same? I believe there are on some teams:
Bucks only has Lillard as starting guard
Pelicans only has McCollum as starting guard
Nuggests only has Murray as starting guard

[WaltFrazier]

Disagree. Lots of teams have forwards capable of handling the ball....that doesnt lead them to completely ignore the backcourt and fill it with trash.

For years the Raps basically had the worst (or close to the worst) guard rotation in the entire NBA. The roster was completely imbalanced because of the focus on the 6-9 movement. The fact that Malachi Flynn was actually part of the rotation here says a boatload.

Look at how a team like the Magic is built....Banchero/Wagner are both forwards capable of play making and handling the ball but the Magic still have multiple guys in the backcourt with basic NBA level guard skills.....Suggs, Fultz, Anthony, Harris which is significantly better than Schroder/Flynn or VanVleet backed up by nobody.

I'd argue the team actually looked half decent immediately after OG trade but it was too little too late as Siakam already had started to mail it in in anticipation of a trade.

Flynn was never part of the rotation, and the problem isn't the back court, but lack of shooting to space the floor.

It really has nothing to do with 6-9 movement, as we see other teams can make it work. It is just we overrated our development program (or we underrated some of the assistant coaches who left), particularly, our shooting improvement, which we believe we can fix players and stack up on non-shooters. Now we went with extreme opposite, and we have many shooters who can't defend.

Completely disagree. Roster balance was a major issue....it goes beyond just not having enough shooters.

During the VanVleet led era, he was the only guard in the lineup with basic NBA level shooting, passing and dribbling skills. When he left, they replaced him with Schroeder and Flynn became part of the rotation.

Can you point to me which successful team in the NBA this year had a guard rotation this bad?

Forget successful teams, even bad teams had better 3-4 guard backcourts.

[Indeed]

Flynn was never part of the rotation, and the problem isn't the back court, but lack of shooting to space the floor.

It really has nothing to do with 6-9 movement, as we see other teams can make it work. It is just we overrated our development program (or we underrated some of the assistant coaches who left), particularly, our shooting improvement, which we believe we can fix players and stack up on non-shooters. Now we went with extreme opposite, and we have many shooters who can't defend.

Completely disagree. Roster balance was a major issue....it goes beyond just not having enough shooters.

During the VanVleet led era, he was the only guard in the lineup with basic NBA level shooting, passing and dribbling skills. When he left, they replaced him with Schroeder and Flynn became part of the rotation.

Can you point to me which successful team in the NBA this year had a guard rotation this bad?

Forget successful teams, even bad teams had better 3-4 guard backcourts.

And the balance is skill set, not position.
I failed to understand people said we need a guard, but our forward plays like a guard, and they are not account as one.

[YogurtProducer]

Nope, we started bench players on our lineup, the problem is lack of starters.
We failed to go big (lack a rim protector and rebounder).
We failed to go small (lack a 3 point shooting and ball penetration).

The reason we think a starting 3&D C and a rim pressure guard would make us much better, those are closer to starter than bench. Having Trent and a young Barnes don't put us to playoffs.

The Raptors scored the fewest points out of any bench in 2021-2022 and the team still won 48 games...let that sink in.

The Raptors scored the 2nd fewest points out of any bench in 2022-2023...let that sink in.

Not sure how you can say our bench wasn't the biggie issue.

Again, because we are playing bench players as starter.
Trent is a bench player and we start him.

And those stats are pretty flawed, if you use PER36, they are identical with other bench, mentioned multiple times. It should use advance stats in ORtg and DRtg instead, which is more fair.

Not sure how you think we had an adequate bench.

It is like.... unarguable that our bench was horrible. That playoff series our bench was Boucher, Birch, Achiwua, and Thad. Literally had 4 bigs who could not shoot as our bench.

[Indeed]

The Raptors scored the fewest points out of any bench in 2021-2022 and the team still won 48 games...let that sink in.

The Raptors scored the 2nd fewest points out of any bench in 2022-2023...let that sink in.

Not sure how you can say our bench wasn't the biggie issue.

Again, because we are playing bench players as starter.
Trent is a bench player and we start him.

And those stats are pretty flawed, if you use PER36, they are identical with other bench, mentioned multiple times. It should use advance stats in ORtg and DRtg instead, which is more fair.

Not sure how you think we had an adequate bench.

It is like.... unarguable that our bench was horrible. That playoff series our bench was Boucher, Birch, Achiwua, and Thad. Literally had 4 bigs who could not shoot as our bench.

If we have a decent starter, we move one of our starter to bench would work.
Trent off the bench isn't bad when you actually have a starter, which is exactly why we were better with Poeltl instead of Birch.

As for shooting, Boucher actually not a bad shooter, just that we got no one created for him to be the finisher. We have to ask him to do more, which was the problem (that is also a point where we lacked a starting quality player who can create).

[YogurtProducer]

Again, because we are playing bench players as starter.
Trent is a bench player and we start him.

And those stats are pretty flawed, if you use PER36, they are identical with other bench, mentioned multiple times. It should use advance stats in ORtg and DRtg instead, which is more fair.

Not sure how you think we had an adequate bench.

It is like.... unarguable that our bench was horrible. That playoff series our bench was Boucher, Birch, Achiwua, and Thad. Literally had 4 bigs who could not shoot as our bench.

If we have a decent starter, we move one of our starter to bench would work.
Trent off the bench isn't bad when you actually have a starter, which is exactly why we were better with Poeltl instead of Birch.

As for shooting, Boucher actually not a bad shooter, just that we got no one created for him to be the finisher. We have to ask him to do more, which was the problem (that is also a point where we lacked a starting quality player who can create).

Moving GTJ to that bench does not suddenly make it a good bench. It pushes it higher up the ranks, sure, but it was far from being good.

And Boucher IS a bad shooter. That is why for 5/6 years he has played he has shot 32-33%. He had one outlier season where he shot good, but other than that he has been bad.

99% of his career 3's have been assisted. And yet he shoots 33%

[WaltFrazier]

Completely disagree. Roster balance was a major issue....it goes beyond just not having enough shooters.

During the VanVleet led era, he was the only guard in the lineup with basic NBA level shooting, passing and dribbling skills. When he left, they replaced him with Schroeder and Flynn became part of the rotation.

Can you point to me which successful team in the NBA this year had a guard rotation this bad?

Forget successful teams, even bad teams had better 3-4 guard backcourts.

And the balance is skill set, not position.
I failed to understand people said we need a guard, but our forward plays like a guard, and they are not account as one.

Because a forward with a bit of handle and good passing vision, like Pascal or Scottie, is still not truly a guard. Guards have a better tighter handle, can bring the ball up vs full court pressure, can get where they want to go and initiate offense. Even when Nurse used Jeff Dowtin last year, not a scoring threat but he made the offense run better just by getting to the right spot and making the right pass.

[Indeed]

Forget successful teams, even bad teams had better 3-4 guard backcourts.

And the balance is skill set, not position.
I failed to understand people said we need a guard, but our forward plays like a guard, and they are not account as one.

Because a forward with a bit of handle and good passing vision, like Pascal or Scottie, is still not truly a guard. Guards have a better tighter handle, can bring the ball up vs full court pressure, can get where they want to go and initiate offense. Even when Nurse used Jeff Dowtin last year, not a scoring threat but he made the offense run better just by getting to the right spot and making the right pass.

I disagree, SIakam has a guard tight handle, can bring the ball up. Is he better than Trent on ball handling, yes!
What we were missing was 3 point shooting skill set and quickness, not necessarily a guard. You have a starter level player, it will still help.

[WaltFrazier]

And the balance is skill set, not position.
I failed to understand people said we need a guard, but our forward plays like a guard, and they are not account as one.

Because a forward with a bit of handle and good passing vision, like Pascal or Scottie, is still not truly a guard. Guards have a better tighter handle, can bring the ball up vs full court pressure, can get where they want to go and initiate offense. Even when Nurse used Jeff Dowtin last year, not a scoring threat but he made the offense run better just by getting to the right spot and making the right pass.

I disagree, SIakam has a guard tight handle, can bring the ball up. Is he better than Trent on ball handling, yes!
What we were missing was 3 point shooting skill set and quickness, not necessarily a guard. You have a starter level player, it will still help.

It's not black and white, yes shooting was a skill set the Raps were lacking. But saying Pascal has a tighter handle than Trent is a low bar. That's the trouble with Gary, he's a pure shooting guard only, with no combo guard handling ability. But since Kyle left it has hurt the Raptors to have only one NBA level PG at a time, Fred, then Dennis then IQ.

[Scase]

Because a forward with a bit of handle and good passing vision, like Pascal or Scottie, is still not truly a guard. Guards have a better tighter handle, can bring the ball up vs full court pressure, can get where they want to go and initiate offense. Even when Nurse used Jeff Dowtin last year, not a scoring threat but he made the offense run better just by getting to the right spot and making the right pass.

I disagree, SIakam has a guard tight handle, can bring the ball up. Is he better than Trent on ball handling, yes!
What we were missing was 3 point shooting skill set and quickness, not necessarily a guard. You have a starter level player, it will still help.

It's not black and white, yes shooting was a skill set the Raps were lacking. But saying Pascal has a tighter handle than Trent is a low bar. That's the trouble with Gary, he's a pure shooting guard only, with no combo guard handling ability. But since Kyle left it has hurt the Raptors to have only one NBA level PG at a time, Fred, then Dennis then IQ.

Siakam has a good handle....for a big. He is (along with every other big man) not a replacement for an actual guard with good handles.

[Indeed]

I disagree, SIakam has a guard tight handle, can bring the ball up. Is he better than Trent on ball handling, yes!
What we were missing was 3 point shooting skill set and quickness, not necessarily a guard. You have a starter level player, it will still help.

It's not black and white, yes shooting was a skill set the Raps were lacking. But saying Pascal has a tighter handle than Trent is a low bar. That's the trouble with Gary, he's a pure shooting guard only, with no combo guard handling ability. But since Kyle left it has hurt the Raptors to have only one NBA level PG at a time, Fred, then Dennis then IQ.

Siakam has a good handle....for a big. He is (along with every other big man) not a replacement for an actual guard with good handles.

I disagree, and I think teams like Pelicans has Ingram handling the ball. Clippers is clearly an example of 6'8 lineup. There are teams being successful with a single guard.

The problem Siakam has is his range, where defenders may go under, so he is less effective as a PnR handler. Again, it is shooting (skill set) and not position.

[Scase]

It's not black and white, yes shooting was a skill set the Raps were lacking. But saying Pascal has a tighter handle than Trent is a low bar. That's the trouble with Gary, he's a pure shooting guard only, with no combo guard handling ability. But since Kyle left it has hurt the Raptors to have only one NBA level PG at a time, Fred, then Dennis then IQ.

Siakam has a good handle....for a big. He is (along with every other big man) not a replacement for an actual guard with good handles.

I disagree, and I think teams like Pelicans has Ingram handling the ball. Clippers is clearly an example of 6'8 lineup. There are teams being successful with a single guard.

The problem Siakam has is his range, where defenders may go under, so he is less effective as a PnR handler. Again, it is shooting (skill set) and not position.

Again, handling the ball is one thing. Being a lead guard that handles the ball primarily for a team, are two different things. He doesnt have the speed or the ball handling to break down a defence like a guard does. It's simply physics, he is larger, so he has to bring the ball up higher, which makes it easier to steal and harder to drive into traffic.

[Indeed]

Siakam has a good handle....for a big. He is (along with every other big man) not a replacement for an actual guard with good handles.

I disagree, and I think teams like Pelicans has Ingram handling the ball. Clippers is clearly an example of 6'8 lineup. There are teams being successful with a single guard.

The problem Siakam has is his range, where defenders may go under, so he is less effective as a PnR handler. Again, it is shooting (skill set) and not position.

Again, handling the ball is one thing. Being a lead guard that handles the ball primarily for a team, are two different things. He doesnt have the speed or the ball handling to break down a defence like a guard does. It's simply physics, he is larger, so he has to bring the ball up higher, which makes it easier to steal and harder to drive into traffic.

Have to disagree that he can't break down a defense like a guard, particularly with his spin move.

Also, as explained, Pelicans with Ingram and Clippers with Leonard / George aren't because of guards, none of them are speed. Those more relied on their range as well. Siakam last year started doing that, hitting that foul line pull up.

The lead guard position isn't that necessary when you have lead wing (hint: position isn't the important thing, the skill set is)