Aaron Gordon says Scottie Barnes when asked about "guy miscast in role as star who might excel as the ultimate glue guy"

[Indeed]

Siakam, FVV, OG and Barnes were just pieces lacking the real stardust to produce wins. Those are 4 pretty good pieces who couldn't crack the playoffs together. You need elite guys, probably two with of them including a top tier point guard, and a third piece like Scottie who can float for most of the game.

That team won 48 games in 2022 with the worst bench in the league.

The team won 41 games in 2023 with the 2nd worst bench in the league and played well after getting Poeltl.

That team was likely capped as being as a 2nd round team but I don't think they were given the bench pieces to stay consistent the whole season.

Great point. FVV completely turned around the Houston Rockets, the NYN had a crazy win percentage with OG on the floor, and the Pascal led the Pacers to the ECF. Is there more proof needed that this core wasn't given the pieces it needed to win? Scottie should have been taking a back seat for the first few years to give this core a chance, instead the team insisted on running him out there and giving him high usage come hell or high water.

And yet, paying 30m to be the worst bench in the league? We seriously build a bench?

Plus what metric was used to measure the bench? Point per game instead of Point per 36 minutes? Our bench needs to play less and score more than other bench?

[Thaddy]

Barnes will be the type of player that makes those around him better during the game, provides elite help defense, and then takes over in the clutch.

That's better than a first option. He will likely raise the value of our bench pieces, including prospects similar to other star point forwards.

The key this draft should be to get him size, shooting, and defense. Since this draft is very weak I'd look for high floor players like Silva, Dunn, and others in the 18-35 range.

[ForeverTFC]

I went back and listened to Simmons, Russillo and KOC's live draft reactions when we selected Barnes and what KOC and Russillo said is still extremely relevant today. A guy that is special defensively, has an understanding of the game beyond his age, and is a special passer; could have gone number 1 but he can't shoot and "there are people in the league who believe he will never be able to shoot."

Gordon is pretty much saying the same thing here and he's not wrong at this point in time. To be a star and someone you build your team around, you have to be able to score in this league. Stars break open defenses and score. Scottie needs to get his year 1 mid-range back. That's what stands between him and legit stardom.

The promising sign is that he has shown that his shooting can improve, so while it's definitely not a foregone conclusion, I think there's at least a solid chance he can develop a dependable shot in the next couple years. You add that year 1 middy to his game last year, and that's all NBA level production.

I'm still not sold on the Scottie will be a superstar thought process, but I would be crazy if I didn't say it was a possibility. At worst I think he ends up being a guy making 2nd and 3rd teams 5+ times in his career, and if that's what we end up with, I can't complain.

We’ll see about his shooting. I think it was Pelton who showed that for improvements in shooting %s to be real, they need to sustain over a certain number of FGA. Scottie’s 3 point shooting to begin the season has all the signs of a hot streak given his reversion. And he still doesn’t shoot it well inside the arc. The only thing he’s sustained is improved FT shooting. If he doesn’t show actual improvement this year, I’ll be concerned.

[Scase]

I went back and listened to Simmons, Russillo and KOC's live draft reactions when we selected Barnes and what KOC and Russillo said is still extremely relevant today. A guy that is special defensively, has an understanding of the game beyond his age, and is a special passer; could have gone number 1 but he can't shoot and "there are people in the league who believe he will never be able to shoot."

Gordon is pretty much saying the same thing here and he's not wrong at this point in time. To be a star and someone you build your team around, you have to be able to score in this league. Stars break open defenses and score. Scottie needs to get his year 1 mid-range back. That's what stands between him and legit stardom.

The promising sign is that he has shown that his shooting can improve, so while it's definitely not a foregone conclusion, I think there's at least a solid chance he can develop a dependable shot in the next couple years. You add that year 1 middy to his game last year, and that's all NBA level production.

I'm still not sold on the Scottie will be a superstar thought process, but I would be crazy if I didn't say it was a possibility. At worst I think he ends up being a guy making 2nd and 3rd teams 5+ times in his career, and if that's what we end up with, I can't complain.

We’ll see about his shooting. I think it was Pelton who showed that for improvements in shooting %s to be real, they need to sustain over a certain number of FGA. Scottie’s 3 point shooting to begin the season has all the signs of a hot streak given his reversion. And he still doesn’t shoot it well inside the arc. The only thing he’s sustained is improved FT shooting. If he doesn’t show actual improvement this year, I’ll be concerned.

Prior to all the trades he was shooting 37% on 230 3pa, now I'm not going to say that, that is etched in stone to carry forward, but there's more evidence to show that is sustainable vs the 68 3pa he took post trades at 23.5%. In reality, it's probably a combination of his hot start falling off as expected, and an impact from the team make up changing so dramatically.

But to your point, I think the number of shots before you can trust is something like 400, so it remains to be seen. As for the FT stuff, the typical argument is that FT shooting is a very good indicator of a good shooter as well. FT % also isn't really impacted by roster changes, so that's promising.

Overall I have expectations and hopes for his long distance shooting next year, expectation is 35%, hopes are 37%. Scottie gives way more reasons to be hopeful than pessimistic, so that's nice to have in at least one player on the roster.

[ForeverTFC]

The promising sign is that he has shown that his shooting can improve, so while it's definitely not a foregone conclusion, I think there's at least a solid chance he can develop a dependable shot in the next couple years. You add that year 1 middy to his game last year, and that's all NBA level production.

I'm still not sold on the Scottie will be a superstar thought process, but I would be crazy if I didn't say it was a possibility. At worst I think he ends up being a guy making 2nd and 3rd teams 5+ times in his career, and if that's what we end up with, I can't complain.

We’ll see about his shooting. I think it was Pelton who showed that for improvements in shooting %s to be real, they need to sustain over a certain number of FGA. Scottie’s 3 point shooting to begin the season has all the signs of a hot streak given his reversion. And he still doesn’t shoot it well inside the arc. The only thing he’s sustained is improved FT shooting. If he doesn’t show actual improvement this year, I’ll be concerned.

Prior to all the trades he was shooting 37% on 230 3pa, now I'm not going to say that, that is etched in stone to carry forward, but there's more evidence to show that is sustainable vs the 68 3pa he took post trades at 23.5%. In reality, it's probably a combination of his hot start falling off as expected, and an impact from the team make up changing so dramatically.

But to your point, I think the number of shots before you can trust is something like 400, so it remains to be seen. As for the FT stuff, the typical argument is that FT shooting is a very good indicator of a good shooter as well. FT % also isn't really impacted by roster changes, so that's promising.

Overall I have expectations and hopes for his long distance shooting next year, expectation is 35%, hopes are 37%. Scottie gives way more reasons to be hopeful than pessimistic, so that's nice to have in at least one player on the roster.

Yeah. I'm pretty positive it was Pelton that did a model on this but I can't find it anywhere so I might be mistaken. The data showed there is a certain number of FGA that is required for the improvement to be real. Otherwise, it's just a hot shooting streak and players tend to go back to their career averages.

I think you're being too generous by putting it all on trades. He shot 26% after Jan 1, I don't have to remind you of how bad that is given your infamous Siakam thread . What I felt "good" about during his bad shooting run was that there was more front rim misses that you maybe could chalk up to fatigue. But that in itself is an issue for Scottie; he tends to get visibly tired as the season goes on. Some of that is his size and role, but he can probably benefit from better conditioning.

Based on what we've seen from Scottie so far, I don't expect that he ever shoots the 3 over 33% for a sustained period of time. I'm fine with that. The key for him, in my opinion, is finishing better at the rim (which he did get better at this season but still not great), finding that 1st year mid-range, and working on his handles. Any 3pt improvement is gravy but I don't really think it's necessary or honestly achievable outside the outlier scenarios given what he's shown in college and 3 year NBA career.

[Scase]

We’ll see about his shooting. I think it was Pelton who showed that for improvements in shooting %s to be real, they need to sustain over a certain number of FGA. Scottie’s 3 point shooting to begin the season has all the signs of a hot streak given his reversion. And he still doesn’t shoot it well inside the arc. The only thing he’s sustained is improved FT shooting. If he doesn’t show actual improvement this year, I’ll be concerned.

Prior to all the trades he was shooting 37% on 230 3pa, now I'm not going to say that, that is etched in stone to carry forward, but there's more evidence to show that is sustainable vs the 68 3pa he took post trades at 23.5%. In reality, it's probably a combination of his hot start falling off as expected, and an impact from the team make up changing so dramatically.

But to your point, I think the number of shots before you can trust is something like 400, so it remains to be seen. As for the FT stuff, the typical argument is that FT shooting is a very good indicator of a good shooter as well. FT % also isn't really impacted by roster changes, so that's promising.

Overall I have expectations and hopes for his long distance shooting next year, expectation is 35%, hopes are 37%. Scottie gives way more reasons to be hopeful than pessimistic, so that's nice to have in at least one player on the roster.

Yeah. I'm pretty positive it was Pelton that did a model on this but I can't find it anywhere so I might be mistaken. The data showed there is a certain number of FGA that is required for the improvement to be real. Otherwise, it's just a hot shooting streak and players tend to go back to their career averages.

I think you're being too generous by putting it all on trades. He shot 26% after Jan 1, I don't have to remind you of how bad that is given your infamous Siakam thread . What I felt "good" about during his bad shooting run was that there was more front rim misses that you maybe could chalk up to fatigue. But that in itself is an issue for Scottie; he tends to get visibly tired as the season goes on. Some of that is his size and role, but he can probably benefit from better conditioning.

Based on what we've seen from Scottie so far, I don't expect that he ever shoots the 3 over 33% for a sustained period of time. I'm fine with that. The key for him, in my opinion, is finishing better at the rim (which he did get better at this season but still not great), finding that 1st year mid-range, and working on his handles. Any 3pt improvement is gravy but I don't really think it's necessary or honestly achievable outside the outlier scenarios given what he's shown in college and 3 year NBA career.

Yeah I'm still not convinced his shooting is resolved and it was only that, but there was too much changing late 2023/early 2024 to not take it into account. Removing OG, adding IQ/RJ is a pretty huge change, then removing Siakam is another huge change, the coverages he was getting, newish system etc. His poor shooting pretty much started Dec 30th, which was the next game after OG was traded, he also mentioned how the trade affected him mentally, so who knows.

I look at last season as more of a proof of concept, he clearly has the skill and mechanics to hit a significant amount of shots at a high clip, it's a matter of getting it for a whole season. The team is not constructed particularly well when spacing is concerned, so hopefully we can make some moves to mitigate that, should leave him a bit more open in general.

I agree with you that he needs to be better near the rim, but I see no reason he shouldn't also focus on his 3 to have it at a respectable 34-36%, it'll open up his game massively. Even if it's on less attempts, gotta keep defenders honest, and considering he doesn't have a good first step, he'll need that to keep them guessing how they should cover him.

Thankfully he's very talented and a hard worker, so it feels more like a "when" and not an "if".

[YogurtProducer]

The promising sign is that he has shown that his shooting can improve, so while it's definitely not a foregone conclusion, I think there's at least a solid chance he can develop a dependable shot in the next couple years. You add that year 1 middy to his game last year, and that's all NBA level production.

I'm still not sold on the Scottie will be a superstar thought process, but I would be crazy if I didn't say it was a possibility. At worst I think he ends up being a guy making 2nd and 3rd teams 5+ times in his career, and if that's what we end up with, I can't complain.

We’ll see about his shooting. I think it was Pelton who showed that for improvements in shooting %s to be real, they need to sustain over a certain number of FGA. Scottie’s 3 point shooting to begin the season has all the signs of a hot streak given his reversion. And he still doesn’t shoot it well inside the arc. The only thing he’s sustained is improved FT shooting. If he doesn’t show actual improvement this year, I’ll be concerned.

Prior to all the trades he was shooting 37% on 230 3pa, now I'm not going to say that, that is etched in stone to carry forward, but there's more evidence to show that is sustainable vs the 68 3pa he took post trades at 23.5%. In reality, it's probably a combination of his hot start falling off as expected, and an impact from the team make up changing so dramatically.

But to your point, I think the number of shots before you can trust is something like 400, so it remains to be seen. As for the FT stuff, the typical argument is that FT shooting is a very good indicator of a good shooter as well. FT % also isn't really impacted by roster changes, so that's promising.

Overall I have expectations and hopes for his long distance shooting next year, expectation is 35%, hopes are 37%. Scottie gives way more reasons to be hopeful than pessimistic, so that's nice to have in at least one player on the roster.

What?

The guy shot 30% on 193 attempts in his rookie year, 28% on 224 attempts as a sophomore, shot 24% on 68 attempts post trade... but the most and best evidence we have is the 39% he shots he took over 9 weeks (182 shots) to start year 3?

Lets just get back to reality here. The reality is he finished the year shooting 34%, and for his career is a 31% shooter. There is a higher likelihood that 34% is actually his peak than his floor if you look at historical trends from other NBA players.

[Duffman100]

Scottie has started every season hot from 3 and then it trails off.

Likely a conditioning thing / not a natural shooter.

[TorontoBarneys]

Scottie's 3pt shooting was definitely affected not just by conditioning but also by the trades, People were talking about it during the season. Higher effort on the defensive end after OG & Siakam left and less catch and shoot 3s and more on-ball 3s taken.

[Vampirate]

Scottie's 3pt shooting was definitely affected not just by conditioning but also by the trades, People were talking about it during the season. Higher effort on the defensive end after OG & Siakam left and less catch and shoot 3s and more on-ball 3s taken.

Honestly I think it was just he went from a #2 option to a #1 option on the team. More focus on teams shutting him down.

Let's see if he can make another leap.

[Vampirate]

Scottie has started every season hot from 3 and then it trails off.

Likely a conditioning thing / not a natural shooter.

I disagree, his shooting this year was almost half a season, the difference was now he had way more attention as the defacto best player on the team.

Year 1: His 'hot streak' in year 1 was on very low volume.

Year 2: He shot 52% in October......6 games, but really he was just hot in a couple.

Year 3: He shot 33% in October, 38% in November, 40% in December, once we traded everybody his percentages plummeted which I don't think is a coincidence. From Detroit onwards he shot under 30%, what changed? The massive trades.

Essentially if we never did the trades (and he never got injured), chances are he'd have a 3P% of over 35% possibly around 37%. The difference between being a #2 or #3 option and a #1 option is pretty huge.

[Indeed]

Scottie has started every season hot from 3 and then it trails off.

Likely a conditioning thing / not a natural shooter.

I disagree, his shooting this year was almost half a season, the difference was now he had way more attention as the defacto best player on the team.

Year 1: His 'hot streak' in year 1 was on very low volume.

Year 2: He shot 52% in October......6 games, but really he was just hot in a couple.

Year 3: He shot 33% in October, 38% in November, 40% in December, once we traded everybody his percentages plummeted which I don't think is a coincidence. From Detroit onwards he shot under 30%, what changed? The massive trades.

Essentially if we never did the trades (and he never got injured), chances are he'd have a 3P% of over 35% possibly around 37%. The difference between being a #2 or #3 option and a #1 option is pretty huge.

Year 4?

[dTox]

Hopefully we can find our superstar in this draft so Scottie can go back to being a second or third banana like Gordon

[Indeed]

Hopefully we can find our superstar in this draft so Scottie can go back to being a second or third banana like Gordon

As if he can shoot the 3 well to even be the 3rd banana.

[Raptorfan2012]

Aaron Gordon peaked in the 2016 dunk contest, so there is that.

[WaltFrazier]

Scottie has started every season hot from 3 and then it trails off.

Likely a conditioning thing / not a natural shooter.

I disagree, his shooting this year was almost half a season, the difference was now he had way more attention as the defacto best player on the team.

Year 1: His 'hot streak' in year 1 was on very low volume.

Year 2: He shot 52% in October......6 games, but really he was just hot in a couple.

Year 3: He shot 33% in October, 38% in November, 40% in December, once we traded everybody his percentages plummeted which I don't think is a coincidence. From Detroit onwards he shot under 30%, what changed? The massive trades.

Essentially if we never did the trades (and he never got injured), chances are he'd have a 3P% of over 35% possibly around 37%. The difference between being a #2 or #3 option and a #1 option is pretty huge.

Year 4?

Almost a year later for this thread and still rehashing the same questions about Scottie.

[YogurtProducer]

Hopefully we can find our superstar in this draft so Scottie can go back to being a second or third banana like Gordon

As if he can shoot the 3 well to even be the 3rd banana.

If Aaron Gordon can, why cant Scottie?

Scottie would be an Aaron Gordon on steroids.

[TorontoBarneys]

I disagree, his shooting this year was almost half a season, the difference was now he had way more attention as the defacto best player on the team.

Year 1: His 'hot streak' in year 1 was on very low volume.

Year 2: He shot 52% in October......6 games, but really he was just hot in a couple.

Year 3: He shot 33% in October, 38% in November, 40% in December, once we traded everybody his percentages plummeted which I don't think is a coincidence. From Detroit onwards he shot under 30%, what changed? The massive trades.

Essentially if we never did the trades (and he never got injured), chances are he'd have a 3P% of over 35% possibly around 37%. The difference between being a #2 or #3 option and a #1 option is pretty huge.

Year 4?

Almost a year later for this thread and still rehashing the same questions about Scottie.

His growth this year was on the defensive end. Let's hope next year we see some offensive growth.

[Duffman100]

Year 4?

Almost a year later for this thread and still rehashing the same questions about Scottie.

His growth this year was on the defensive end. Let's hope next year we see some offensive growth.

I would say his midrange at least looks better. I'm not sure if the #s back that up.

[Indeed]

Almost a year later for this thread and still rehashing the same questions about Scottie.

His growth this year was on the defensive end. Let's hope next year we see some offensive growth.

I would say his midrange at least looks better. I'm not sure if the #s back that up.

Even then, the mid range isnt something efficient that you want to use it for high volume. The disappointment is still being inconsistent in shooting wide open 3, was expecting he has time to work on his shot.