Windhorst: Raptors making noise around the league looking for a “big fish” // Giannis & Toronto "Mutual Interest"/KD too

[Raptorfan2012]

Everyone is continually looking at this backwards. It's not a matter of assets. The way things work in the league is that the best players pretty much choose where they want to play as featured performers. It's kinda like top level world football at this point. You have to convince players to believe in your project and to want to come here. That was where they failed with Dame and Kawhi too in terms of extending here. But if you're a top 10-15 player in the league and you had a choice of where to play, how many would chose to be here long-term? That continues to be an issue.

No crap, Masai would love Giannis to be a Raptor, but it's a matter of convincing Giannis that this would be the best destination for him that also allows him to compete for a ring.

Does that seem likely? Giannis already had that choice in free agency and he elected to remain in Milwaukee.

Obviously drafting a 1A guy is the optimum solution but that's complete luck. So trading for those stars under contract is the plan now as it was with Kawhi (and thankfully that paid off) as they have no choice (unless they wanna sit out/force a move away) but you have to be at a point in terms of roster-building where it makes sense to go all-in for that guy (I think you can make the case where it now makes sense in terms of asset consolidation plus lacking a clear top-level guy) but that player also has to want to be here long-term as the face of the project and again, that remains the issue.

Ingram wanted to be here and that's part of how that trade was able to happen.

But can Masai convince a bigger star?

It’s because of Masai’s relationship with Giannis and the Raptors being the East that we are even in this discussion to be a potential team. I don’t really see any other big fish that makes sense for us; maybe Trae Young or Sabonis (but neither will catapult us to Championship contention).

[Scase]

Booker? Ja?

It's Booker. He fits the timeline, wouldn't have to give up too much, another good scorer/shooter and has a great relationship with Darko.

Barnes/Ingram/Booker is one hell of a big three.

Tbh sounds like Booker is not being traded....I think they hold booker and try and move Durant/Beal....The owner said a Booker trade will never happen for what its worth....I doubt hes available...

Yeah, good luck with that.

[PhilBlackson]

Everyone is continually looking at this backwards. It's not a matter of assets. The way things work in the league is that the best players pretty much choose where they want to play as featured performers. It's kinda like top level world football at this point. You have to convince players to believe in your project and to want to come here. That was where they failed with Dame and Kawhi too in terms of extending here. But if you're a top 10-15 player in the league and you had a choice of where to play, how many would chose to be here long-term? That continues to be an issue.

No crap, Masai would love Giannis to be a Raptor, but it's a matter of convincing Giannis that this would be the best destination for him that also allows him to compete for a ring.

Does that seem likely? Giannis already had that choice in free agency and he elected to remain in Milwaukee.

Obviously drafting a 1A guy is the optimum solution but that's complete luck. So trading for those stars under contract is the plan now as it was with Kawhi (and thankfully that paid off) as they have no choice (unless they wanna sit out/force a move away) but you have to be at a point in terms of roster-building where it makes sense to go all-in for that guy (I think you can make the case where it now makes sense in terms of asset consolidation plus lacking a clear top-level guy) but that player also has to want to be here long-term as the face of the project and again, that remains the issue.

Ingram wanted to be here and that's part of how that trade was able to happen.

But can Masai convince a bigger star?

It’s because of Masai’s relationship with Giannis and the Raptors being the East that we are even in this discussion to be a potential team. I don’t really see any other big fish that makes sense for us; maybe Trae Young or Sabonis (but neither will catapult us to Championship contention).

Hell no to Sabonis, we don't need to add more players that can't shoot and of course plays the same position as Scottie, not to mention isn't a good defender.

[DelaneyRudd]

We're 100% going to be very aggressive for Giannis

And you end up with a Markannen.

[ConSarnit]

Everyone is continually looking at this backwards. It's not a matter of assets. The way things work in the league is that the best players pretty much choose where they want to play as featured performers. It's kinda like top level world football at this point. You have to convince players to believe in your project and to want to come here. That was where they failed with Dame and Kawhi too in terms of extending here. But if you're a top 10-15 player in the league and you had a choice of where to play, how many would chose to be here long-term? That continues to be an issue.

No crap, Masai would love Giannis to be a Raptor, but it's a matter of convincing Giannis that this would be the best destination for him that also allows him to compete for a ring.

Does that seem likely? Giannis already had that choice in free agency and he elected to remain in Milwaukee.

Obviously drafting a 1A guy is the optimum solution but that's complete luck. So trading for those stars under contract is the plan now as it was with Kawhi (and thankfully that paid off) as they have no choice (unless they wanna sit out/force a move away) but you have to be at a point in terms of roster-building where it makes sense to go all-in for that guy (I think you can make the case where it now makes sense in terms of asset consolidation plus lacking a clear top-level guy) but that player also has to want to be here long-term as the face of the project and again, that remains the issue.

Ingram wanted to be here and that's part of how that trade was able to happen.

But can Masai convince a bigger star?

I think our star hunting plans revolve around 2 things:

1) does the star actually want to come here (this really only applies to tier 1 stars like Giannis)

2) what is Barnes value around the league? I really have no idea. Last year wasn’t great but he might still be viewed at young, center piece-ish value

If Barnes’ value is still high then I think we can close the gap on some of the teams with larger asset bases. If Barnes value has taken a hit (now on max deal, scoring looks shakey) then I think we get outbid if we try to go big game hunting. If a star wants to come here that would be great but I’m still at the “believe it when I see it” point.

If we want to keep Barnes (or his value is now just “ok”) I don’t see how we get into the trading for a star business.

[Tripod]

No clue why people are mentioning KD. We do not need to put ourselves in a position to win it all in the next year or so. That is meant for teams who are actually already good.

It's only because with Masai only having 1 year left on his deal, this might be his last chance here to make a big splash.

[Tor_Raps]

No clue why people are mentioning KD. We do not need to put ourselves in a position to win it all in the next year or so. That is meant for teams who are actually already good.

It's only because with Masai only having 1 year left on his deal, this might be his last chance here to make a big splash.

I don't see Masai doing anything shortsighted just to appease Rogers while hurting his reputation league wide. Masai can land a President role tomorrow from about 75% of the NBA.

KD made sense with the Siakam/OG core, not this one. I'd rather sit tight than go after him tbh.

[ConSarnit]

Yeah, the man who brought a championships in recent times needs to be stopped.

Masai Ujiri needs to be stopped. He was lucky to get Kawhi and Gasol and the surrounding players worked well, but this ain't 2019 - we have been a b2b lotto team.

The man as he gets older cuts so many corners and is now compounding mistakes. We already have a broken non-relevant Brandon Ingram, we don't need more mistakes like this.

remember when Siakam was an irrelevant player that only a couple teams wanted?

SAC and GSW are probably regretting not getting Siakam. What are these untouchable role players, Keegan Murray and Kuminga, doing for them now? Diddly squat.

Siakam without a 3 point shot was not as valuable. It's really unfortunate that he only started working on his three pt shooting just as the trade deadline was coming up..Masai didn't really believe in him either.

Also, look at OG's games per year prior to this season: 43, 48, 67, 50

This is just not really true. Siakam’s 3pt shooting is not all that much different than it was here. He might have improved slightly. He has key 3 things going for him now:

1) he has a great passing PG to get him better looks

2) he’s taking zero self created 3’s on the Pacers. At any given year with the Raptors 10-15% of his 3’s were after 3+ dribbles. On the Pacers that number is down to 2%.

3) he’s taking about 33% of his 3pa from the corner with the Pacers. The past 4 years with the Raptors that’s been around 23%.

Siakam is largely just taking much easier 3’s on the Pacers.

[PhilBlackson]

No clue why people are mentioning KD. We do not need to put ourselves in a position to win it all in the next year or so. That is meant for teams who are actually already good.

It's only because with Masai only having 1 year left on his deal, this might be his last chance here to make a big splash.

Personally I'm not advocating for it but just guessing that is the move Masai is more likely to go after/get done again due to the asking price and as Tripod just said because Masai is on the verge of re-negotiating his contract.

We already went after KD and now the asking price should be substantially lower than it was at the time and certainly much less than Giannis who ofc MIL made it very well known they will be looking to clean out the incumbent team so I don't see that happening nor do I think we can compete with SAS or HOU (Giannis will end up with one of the 2, personally I still think the Spurs will get it done in the end).

But just look at the ECF, don't tell me KD, BI & Scottie with a decent supporting cast couldn't get through them because really it should be essentially the same teams except maaaybe PHI can limp there way into the Playoffs. But if we're the ones that get KD and Giannis heads out West, it's really not all that hard to imagine the team making a run to the Finals either next year or the following one. Doesn't mean any of us mentioning trading for KD are saying do it (I would if 9 were off the table but obv doubt that) but with Masai on the verge of a renegotiation and coming off an underwhelming last 5 years --- adding KD & BI to make a Finals' run would very easily get him the money he wants and more importantly the money MLSE wants as the casual fans will line up for blocks to watch Durant nvm all the merchandise sales, endorsements/advertising dollars that would come in so that WHY we could see it happening.

[sidsid]

All right - just for fun:

4 way trade - Toronto, Milwaukee, Phoenix, Brooklyn

Toronto gets KD and Giannis
Milwaukee gets Beal, Clowney, Whitehead and picks via Brooklyn and Phoenix and Toronto
Phoenix gets Brandon Ingram and D’angelo Russell
Brooklyn gets Scottie Barnes and Pat Connaughton

Why for Toronto? They go all in this year with the complementary players they developed last year.

IQ/Ochai/KD/Giannis/Poeltl looks championship worthy to me, barring injury.

Milwaukee recuperates Beal’s value and gets copious picks and young players to do so. If Dame recovers, they have a couple of aging greats to give’er for one more playoff run before rebooting it fully.

Phoenix moves off Beal’s salary and a disgruntled KD and gets similar players who are younger and could fit better alongside Booker.

Brooklyn gets Scottie and builds around him.

Works in the checker.

The only scenario I see Giannis coming in is something like this. He's not coming if Barnes is traded, unless there is a PG/Kawhi situation attached with it. But I think BI has to stay in this situation. Jak doesn't fit with Giannis so they'd move him anyway. It's a "big 3", but Giannis actually works with the other 2.

You're looking at a 2 year window and then Giannis leaves and KD retires. BI looks for his next contract. We should still have the rest of our picks in the upcoming drafts for the tank.

[JB7]

Everyone is continually looking at this backwards. It's not a matter of assets. The way things work in the league is that the best players pretty much choose where they want to play as featured performers. It's kinda like top level world football at this point. You have to convince players to believe in your project and to want to come here. That was where they failed with Dame and Kawhi too in terms of extending here. But if you're a top 10-15 player in the league and you had a choice of where to play, how many would chose to be here long-term? That continues to be an issue.

No crap, Masai would love Giannis to be a Raptor, but it's a matter of convincing Giannis that this would be the best destination for him that also allows him to compete for a ring.

Does that seem likely? Giannis already had that choice in free agency and he elected to remain in Milwaukee.

Obviously drafting a 1A guy is the optimum solution but that's complete luck. So trading for those stars under contract is the plan now as it was with Kawhi (and thankfully that paid off) as they have no choice (unless they wanna sit out/force a move away) but you have to be at a point in terms of roster-building where it makes sense to go all-in for that guy (I think you can make the case where it now makes sense in terms of asset consolidation plus lacking a clear top-level guy) but that player also has to want to be here long-term as the face of the project and again, that remains the issue.

Ingram wanted to be here and that's part of how that trade was able to happen.

But can Masai convince a bigger star?

I think our star hunting plans revolve around 2 things:

1) does the star actually want to come here (this really only applies to tier 1 stars like Giannis)

2) what is Barnes value around the league? I really have no idea. Last year wasn’t great but he might still be viewed at young, center piece-ish value

If Barnes’ value is still high then I think we can close the gap on some of the teams with larger asset bases. If Barnes value has taken a hit (now on max deal, scoring looks shakey) then I think we get outbid if we try to go big game hunting. If a star wants to come here that would be great but I’m still at the “believe it when I see it” point.

If we want to keep Barnes (or his value is now just “ok”) I don’t see how we get into the trading for a star business.

Barnes value is not as high as Cade or Mobley, but I think it can definitely rebound in the right situation. Plus, he is not making 30% of the cap like those two for the next 5 seasons.

Barnes is clearly still viewed as the best player on the Raps. And the moment he is offered in the deal, it significantly narrows the competition from other teams. Then the Cavs, if interested need to offer Mobley, Rockets Amen, etc.

Keep in mind, when Masai made the Kawhi deal, he was sending out the player viewed as the best player on the Raps. Now he had given the Lowry/Derozan duo multiple playoff runs to prove whether they could make it happen. Maybe this time, he just doesn’t have that kind of patience.

It makes sense to offer Barnes. Giannis is not a short term option like Kawhi. And having a legit starting lineup around him would matter. With Barnes in the deal, they only need to offer smaller contracts like Gradey and Ochai to get to Giannis’s salary. Also, players more ready to contribute, and also young like Barnes would be appealing to the Bucks. For the Raps, they keep their starting lineup intact, just swapping Barnes for Giannis, and retain a cheap bench in Mogbo, Battle, Walter and Shead to stay below the 1st apron. If the lineup works, this team is locked in financially for 2 years. If it doesn’t, they have pieces to trade.

Also, offering young players that can contribute now (Barnes, Gradey & Ochai) probably means they could get away with offering less picks. I think 9th pick would need to go for sure, but maybe only one other first. Masai doesn’t like to give away FRPs. And FRPs from a team with Giannis will be of less interest to the Bucks, because clearly those will be low FRPs.

[PhilBlackson]

All right - just for fun:

4 way trade - Toronto, Milwaukee, Phoenix, Brooklyn

Toronto gets KD and Giannis
Milwaukee gets Beal, Clowney, Whitehead and picks via Brooklyn and Phoenix and Toronto
Phoenix gets Brandon Ingram and D’angelo Russell
Brooklyn gets Scottie Barnes and Pat Connaughton

Why for Toronto? They go all in this year with the complementary players they developed last year.

IQ/Ochai/KD/Giannis/Poeltl looks championship worthy to me, barring injury.

Milwaukee recuperates Beal’s value and gets copious picks and young players to do so. If Dame recovers, they have a couple of aging greats to give’er for one more playoff run before rebooting it fully.

Phoenix moves off Beal’s salary and a disgruntled KD and gets similar players who are younger and could fit better alongside Booker.

Brooklyn gets Scottie and builds around him.

Works in the checker.

The only scenario I see Giannis coming in is something like this. He's not coming if Barnes is traded, unless there is a PG/Kawhi situation attached with it. But I think BI has to stay in this situation. Jak doesn't fit with Giannis so they'd move him anyway. It's a "big 3", but Giannis actually works with the other 2.

You're looking at a 2 year window and then Giannis leaves and KD retires. BI looks for his next contract. We should still have the rest of our picks in the upcoming drafts for the tank.

There's not a chance in hell we get BOTH Giannis & KD

We will be incredibly lucky just to outbid SAS and HOU for Giannis...it's a complete fantasy land that we could somehow outbid them and still have enough to get KD as well when whichever losers of the Giannis' sweepstakes will almost certainly only push harder to land KD. This is the wildest wishful thinking I've seen so far.

[Potential]

Read on Twitter

[Tor_Raps]

Read on Twitter

I swear I thought we has already moved up in those betting odds weeks ago...

[sidsid]

All right - just for fun:

4 way trade - Toronto, Milwaukee, Phoenix, Brooklyn

Toronto gets KD and Giannis
Milwaukee gets Beal, Clowney, Whitehead and picks via Brooklyn and Phoenix and Toronto
Phoenix gets Brandon Ingram and D’angelo Russell
Brooklyn gets Scottie Barnes and Pat Connaughton

Why for Toronto? They go all in this year with the complementary players they developed last year.

IQ/Ochai/KD/Giannis/Poeltl looks championship worthy to me, barring injury.

Milwaukee recuperates Beal’s value and gets copious picks and young players to do so. If Dame recovers, they have a couple of aging greats to give’er for one more playoff run before rebooting it fully.

Phoenix moves off Beal’s salary and a disgruntled KD and gets similar players who are younger and could fit better alongside Booker.

Brooklyn gets Scottie and builds around him.

Works in the checker.

The only scenario I see Giannis coming in is something like this. He's not coming if Barnes is traded, unless there is a PG/Kawhi situation attached with it. But I think BI has to stay in this situation. Jak doesn't fit with Giannis so they'd move him anyway. It's a "big 3", but Giannis actually works with the other 2.

You're looking at a 2 year window and then Giannis leaves and KD retires. BI looks for his next contract. We should still have the rest of our picks in the upcoming drafts for the tank.

There's not a chance in hell we get BOTH Giannis & KD

We will be incredibly lucky just to outbid SAS and HOU for Giannis...it's a complete fantasy land that we could somehow outbid them and still have enough to get KD as well when whichever losers of the Giannis' sweepstakes will almost certainly only push harder to land KD. This is the wildest wishful thinking I've seen so far.

Oh I don't think it's going to happen. I think it's the only scenario Giannis wouldn't veto. Trying to make those two things happen is only likely when you're in a Clippers situation and the player is deadset on going to your city.

Many teams would outbid us in any other scenario. Our chances of getting Giannis died when we lost the lottery.

[Brinbe]

Everyone is continually looking at this backwards. It's not a matter of assets. The way things work in the league is that the best players pretty much choose where they want to play as featured performers. It's kinda like top level world football at this point. You have to convince players to believe in your project and to want to come here. That was where they failed with Dame and Kawhi too in terms of extending here. But if you're a top 10-15 player in the league and you had a choice of where to play, how many would chose to be here long-term? That continues to be an issue.

No crap, Masai would love Giannis to be a Raptor, but it's a matter of convincing Giannis that this would be the best destination for him that also allows him to compete for a ring.

Does that seem likely? Giannis already had that choice in free agency and he elected to remain in Milwaukee.

Obviously drafting a 1A guy is the optimum solution but that's complete luck. So trading for those stars under contract is the plan now as it was with Kawhi (and thankfully that paid off) as they have no choice (unless they wanna sit out/force a move away) but you have to be at a point in terms of roster-building where it makes sense to go all-in for that guy (I think you can make the case where it now makes sense in terms of asset consolidation plus lacking a clear top-level guy) but that player also has to want to be here long-term as the face of the project and again, that remains the issue.

Ingram wanted to be here and that's part of how that trade was able to happen.

But can Masai convince a bigger star?

I think our star hunting plans revolve around 2 things:

1) does the star actually want to come here (this really only applies to tier 1 stars like Giannis)

2) what is Barnes value around the league? I really have no idea. Last year wasn’t great but he might still be viewed at young, center piece-ish value

If Barnes’ value is still high then I think we can close the gap on some of the teams with larger asset bases. If Barnes value has taken a hit (now on max deal, scoring looks shakey) then I think we get outbid if we try to go big game hunting. If a star wants to come here that would be great but I’m still at the “believe it when I see it” point.

If we want to keep Barnes (or his value is now just “ok”) I don’t see how we get into the trading for a star business.

Very true. I think the sheen of potential can wear off real quick. Getting that 1A guy should always be the priority if they can make it happen and Scottie is either the ticket to getting that person or the best argument for why this is a situation worth investing in.

[Scase]

Everyone is continually looking at this backwards. It's not a matter of assets. The way things work in the league is that the best players pretty much choose where they want to play as featured performers. It's kinda like top level world football at this point. You have to convince players to believe in your project and to want to come here. That was where they failed with Dame and Kawhi too in terms of extending here. But if you're a top 10-15 player in the league and you had a choice of where to play, how many would chose to be here long-term? That continues to be an issue.

No crap, Masai would love Giannis to be a Raptor, but it's a matter of convincing Giannis that this would be the best destination for him that also allows him to compete for a ring.

Does that seem likely? Giannis already had that choice in free agency and he elected to remain in Milwaukee.

Obviously drafting a 1A guy is the optimum solution but that's complete luck. So trading for those stars under contract is the plan now as it was with Kawhi (and thankfully that paid off) as they have no choice (unless they wanna sit out/force a move away) but you have to be at a point in terms of roster-building where it makes sense to go all-in for that guy (I think you can make the case where it now makes sense in terms of asset consolidation plus lacking a clear top-level guy) but that player also has to want to be here long-term as the face of the project and again, that remains the issue.

Ingram wanted to be here and that's part of how that trade was able to happen.

But can Masai convince a bigger star?

I think our star hunting plans revolve around 2 things:

1) does the star actually want to come here (this really only applies to tier 1 stars like Giannis)

2) what is Barnes value around the league? I really have no idea. Last year wasn’t great but he might still be viewed at young, center piece-ish value

If Barnes’ value is still high then I think we can close the gap on some of the teams with larger asset bases. If Barnes value has taken a hit (now on max deal, scoring looks shakey) then I think we get outbid if we try to go big game hunting. If a star wants to come here that would be great but I’m still at the “believe it when I see it” point.

If we want to keep Barnes (or his value is now just “ok”) I don’t see how we get into the trading for a star business.

Barnes value is not as high as Cade or Mobley, but I think it can definitely rebound in the right situation. Plus, he is not making 30% of the cap like those two for the next 5 seasons.

Barnes is clearly still viewed as the best player on the Raps. And the moment he is offered in the deal, it significantly narrows the competition from other teams. Then the Cavs, if interested need to offer Mobley, Rockets Amen, etc.

Keep in mind, when Masai made the Kawhi deal, he was sending out the player viewed as the best player on the Raps. Now he had given the Lowry/Derozan duo multiple playoff runs to prove whether they could make it happen. Maybe this time, he just doesn’t have that kind of patience.

It makes sense to offer Barnes. Giannis is not a short term option like Kawhi. And having a legit starting lineup around him would matter. With Barnes in the deal, they only need to offer smaller contracts like Gradey and Ochai to get to Giannis’s salary. Also, players more ready to contribute, and also young like Barnes would be appealing to the Bucks. For the Raps, they keep their starting lineup intact, just swapping Barnes for Giannis, and retain a cheap bench in Mogbo, Battle, Walter and Shead to stay below the 1st apron. If the lineup works, this team is locked in financially for 2 years. If it doesn’t, they have pieces to trade.

It kinda is though, Giannis has 2 years + a PO left before he's a UFA, now not quite the same as an expiring Kawhi, but not that far off either. Do you trade Scottie and a ton of other stuff if you have that big question mark in 2-ish years?

If we were a lot closer to the 2017 team I can say that is 100% a yes, but with 25 and 30 win seasons the last 2 years, and tons of question marks with the fit and more importantly, the health of the team it becomes a lot murkier. I'd still say yeah you trade for him, but there's more risk with that trade than there was with Kawhi.

The DD/KL pairing was a known quantity, especially DD. This would be us giving up a player that is 23 and has a bunch of potential still, plus the untold number of picks. If Giannis decides to bolt in FA, then you owe the Bucks a bunch of picks when your team would likely be miserably bad.

It's not at all about getting Giannis here, but rather keeping him here. Definitely risky.

[Tripod]

No clue why people are mentioning KD. We do not need to put ourselves in a position to win it all in the next year or so. That is meant for teams who are actually already good.

It's only because with Masai only having 1 year left on his deal, this might be his last chance here to make a big splash.

I don't see Masai doing anything shortsighted just to appease Rogers while hurting his reputation league wide. Masai can land a President role tomorrow from about 75% of the NBA.

KD made sense with the Siakam/OG core, not this one. I'd rather sit tight than go after him tbh.

But it would show to the rest of the NBA that Kawhi was not a 1 off. And let's be honest, there would be more deals to follow.

But in reality, this is all likely fantasy. Personally I am quite fine going into next year with what we have+9 and 39 as long as we also add a legit backup C. And then go from there.

[Landomar]

Quickley, Dick, and #9 for Lamelo Ball is a trade that would make a splash. I think Charlotte would only do this if they are convinced that Ball will never be able to stay healthy, though, which would make it especially high risk from our end.

[Tripod]

Is there a deal where:

Bucks get their swap and pick back from NO in 2026 and 27 plus get Zion, and some 1st from Raps.

NOP get Barnes for those picks/swap and wipe hands of Zion.

Raps get Giannis

Bucks get to tank if they want but also get Zion as a "draw" for fans. And can choose to walk away from him anytime given how his contract is. Or maybe his value gets rebuilt and they are able to move him for more assets later.

NOP gets the guarantee of Barnes instead of a possibility of picks and essentially walk away from Zion.

Raps obviously upgrade

This would be the core of the deal and obviously there might be other additions...maybe Dick to NOP for example.