Official Bargnani Discussion Thread

[theonlyeastcoastrapsfan]

Now there is something I've been thinking a little bit lately... that might be a more serious issue.

Is Bargs the kind of guy who is best in a PG dominated offense? Or would he be better developed into being a primary initiator on offense. He can be a very good catch and shoot player when he's hot - but he can do quite a bit more than that as well.

Dirk did quite well with Nash + Finley, but has taken things up a further notch once he become even more of a focal point in the offense. Especially relative to their overall slower pace than in the Nellie days.

Now I'm not saying we should be using him differently, per se - because he's still the third best option at best on this team at this point... so its a matter of how does he fit around Bosh and the PGs, not vice versa. And we have a variety of other weapons as well. But I do think he would look better, and it might benefit the team as well, if we mixed things up a little more - running more offense through Bargs than we currently do, to start games... and we HAVE had some success doing that for stretches this year.

I did notice some frustration from him early in the game yesterday as he called for the ball in some reasonable looking settings and didn't get it - there are times that Jose continues to dribble the ball and set the offense up, rather than hand off to Bargs earlier in the shot clock when he might be able to look for a pass or shot - then swing it back to Jose and achieve the same thing. But then he nicely and aggressively hit that pull up J once he finally did get the ball.

Bargs is definitively not a typical C, and in order for us to maximize his contribution to the team, I think we need to be a little more creative than we have been so far... and he needs to work harder and give a more consistent effort. And like Leo says, stop playing so vertically.

I've mentioned this before too. Despite his areas needing improvement he does have some skills. We shoot ourselves in the foot with Smitch's mantra of - all we are asking him to do is defense and rebounding - just focus on that. Funny how that is the part he struggles with. For him offense comes easier. Not saying it's a great thing, or that he shouldn't improve in those other areas, but there is a reason why he was drafted where he was drafted,. why don't we also look to use what he is already comfortable with and actually design plays to get him shots where he likes to take them, and get him the ball early on possessions to allow him to drive and make a plays or dish. He's a good passer who finds open guys and gets the shooters the ball in rhythm.

[deknow]

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I think there's some chicken and egg stuff with respect to that sort of play. Bargs needs to get better at scoring on short guys in the post - he does so uncomfortably at best, with far too many bad shots and TOs. And while he's not that good at it now, he needs more touches to get better at it. But right now its a low % option, which Jose instinctively recognizes, hence his reluctance. But then Bargs won't improve if he gets 1 opportunity a game like that, and he gets frustrated to boot.

The answer? I'm not sure.

Agreed he is erratic down there at times, mostly when he's crowded but the only way one gets comfortable is with repetition. I don't see how having a 7'0 guy on a 6'3 in the low post could ever be considered a low % option regardles of his skill level. As a PG you live for those matchups. I could count on both my hands the amount of time Bargs has been given the ball in that scenario.

[deknow]

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I've mentioned this before too. Despite his areas needing improvement he does have some skills. We shoot ourselves in the foot with Smitch's mantra of - all we are asking him to do is defense and rebounding - just focus on that. Funny how that is the part he struggles with. For him offense comes easier. Not saying it's a great thing, or that he shouldn't improve in those other areas, but there is a reason why he was drafted where he was drafted,. why don't we also look to use what he is already comfortable with and actually design plays to get him shots where he likes to take them, and get him the ball early on possessions to allow him to drive and make a plays or dish. He's a good passer who finds open guys and gets the shooters the ball in rhythm.

Makes sense to me.

[tb40]

The Princeton offence, or a variation of it.

I would love to see that here.

Fat chance though.

[mwaschkowski]

After reading whole thread, I'm tired...

Rebounds in last game:
Bosh: 1
Bargs: 2

worth repeating.

I have seen games where Bargs can rebound. I think that there is something mental going on and we have to wait for a good couple of months after becoming starter to allow him to figure some stuff out (mostly rebounding, but I would say even longer for proper help defense) and give Sam enough time to drill it in. Its clear to me that he does need more time, perhaps into next season, don't know for sure.

I second the big man coach.

[dagger]

After reading whole thread, I'm tired...

Rebounds in last game:
Bosh: 1
Bargs: 2

worth repeating.

I have seen games where Bargs can rebound. I think that there is something mental going on and we have to wait for a good couple of months after becoming starter to allow him to figure some stuff out (mostly rebounding, but I would say even longer for proper help defense) and give Sam enough time to drill it in. Its clear to me that he does need more time, perhaps into next season, don't know for sure.



I second the big man coach.

I think there is one sure-fire way to get Bargnani to 6-8 boards per game. It's not rocket science. When one of his teammates steps in front of him to take away an uncontested rebound, like Moon did twice last night, Bargnani should be instructed to ward him off by raising his elbows high enough to give Moon a shave. That would double his number of boards, but more importantly, nobody would take away his opportunities, and AB would have to go for the boards near him. He's passive, in part because his teammates like Moon and Bosh are rebounding anything in sight - well, not the last two games for Bosh, but usually's he's good.

In other words, AB has to claim the role, and when he has it, not relinquish it. Right now, he looks like he expects somebody else to rebound, and he looks surprised when a loose ball actually comes his way.

[Yuri Vaultin]

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I think there is one sure-fire way to get Bargnani to 6-8 boards per game. It's not rocket science. When one of his teammates steps in front of him to take away an uncontested rebound, like Moon did twice last night, Bargnani should be instructed to ward him off by raising his elbows high enough to give Moon a shave. That would double his number of boards, but more importantly, nobody would take away his opportunities, and AB would have to go for the boards near him. He's passive, in part because his teammates like Moon and Bosh are rebounding anything in sight - well, not the last two games for Bosh, but usually's he's good.

In other words, AB has to claim the role, and when he has it, not relinquish it. Right now, he looks like he expects somebody else to rebound, and he looks surprised when a loose ball actually comes his way.

I noticed this also last night - not just with Bargs - but Moon almost took Bosh's head off also - only on the defensive end, but still... I can't fault Moon for rebounding and aggressively go after the ball, especially with Mitchell screaming at him, however, if your team mate is right there, alone, with the ball coming down to him there is no need to leap 4 feet in the air to snag it.

[mwaschkowski]

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I think there is one sure-fire way to get Bargnani to 6-8 boards per game. It's not rocket science. When one of his teammates steps in front of him to take away an uncontested rebound, like Moon did twice last night, Bargnani should be instructed to ward him off by raising his elbows high enough to give Moon a shave. That would double his number of boards, but more importantly, nobody would take away his opportunities, and AB would have to go for the boards near him. He's passive, in part because his teammates like Moon and Bosh are rebounding anything in sight - well, not the last two games for Bosh, but usually's he's good.

In other words, AB has to claim the role, and when he has it, not relinquish it. Right now, he looks like he expects somebody else to rebound, and he looks surprised when a loose ball actually comes his way.

Agree, need to see him start thinking, "Thats my rebound", and grab it. He just doesn't yet have that mindset, but I think it will come because I have seen it in the past. Its going to take more aggression that he has shown lately, but I bet that he is still isn't comfortable yet this season because of the way things have gone thus far (starting/not starting/starting again, injured etc). Don't look now folks, but IMO its going to take losing some more rebounds to Reggie Evans type guys too before it all clicks.

[C Court]

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We shoot ourselves in the foot with Smitch's mantra of - all we are asking him to do is defense and rebounding - just focus on that. Funny how that is the part he struggles with. For him offense comes easier. .

Bingo! This is something that frustrates me. Yes, its what Sam said to Humphries and it worked. But Bargnani is not Humphries. Different players have different skillsets and more importantly, they are motivated differently.

Sam's 'one size fits all' style of coaching is not working with Andrea. So move on and find a way to help the kid succeed. Everyone agrees that Bargnani is regressing and some of that has to fall on the coach.

[vulture]

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I think there is one sure-fire way to get Bargnani to 6-8 boards per game. It's not rocket science. When one of his teammates steps in front of him to take away an uncontested rebound, like Moon did twice last night, Bargnani should be instructed to ward him off by raising his elbows high enough to give Moon a shave. That would double his number of boards, but more importantly, nobody would take away his opportunities, and AB would have to go for the boards near him. He's passive, in part because his teammates like Moon and Bosh are rebounding anything in sight - well, not the last two games for Bosh, but usually's he's good.

In other words, AB has to claim the role, and when he has it, not relinquish it. Right now, he looks like he expects somebody else to rebound, and he looks surprised when a loose ball actually comes his way.

This thread has reached a new low.
As usual, Dagger is telling us that Bargs can't rebound because Moon and Bosh are taking away his opportunities.
This deserves a:

[Joker]

Dagger is right to an extent. The center should never be deferring to the small forward to grab the rebound. The small forward should be deferring to the center. Bargnani can't get in the habit of thinking that someone else will get it.

[Platapie]

I can't recall who it was, but someone literally stole a rebound, not from Bargnagni but from another player that made me chuckle. JG from Humphries perhaps?

[The_Hater]

This thread has reached a new low.
As usual, Dagger is telling us that Bargs can't rebound because Moon and Bosh are taking away his opportunities.
This deserves a:

Ironically, this was also Barg's excuse on all those rebounds Dalembert and Evans were grabbing. They kept stepping in front of him dammit!

[AfricanSensation]

And what's the excuse for that slow rebound that almost hit him on the head and then fall threw his hands out of bounds while he was all alone?

[dagger]

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I noticed this also last night - not just with Bargs - but Moon almost took Bosh's head off also - only on the defensive end, but still... I can't fault Moon for rebounding and aggressively go after the ball, especially with Mitchell screaming at him, however, if your team mate is right there, alone, with the ball coming down to him there is no need to leap 4 feet in the air to snag it.

I can't fault Moon either, it's good that he's aggressive, but rebounding is group responsibility. The problem is that if one player usurps the role of another, or a player allows that to happen, you begin assuming that that player is always going to do the job. Grange had an interesting observation in his blog about how one play got royally screwed last night - on an inbounds play, Moon didn't switch cover as he was supposed to, AP was caught off out of position as a result and over-compensated to cover an Iguodala, who as a consequence drove past AP and Bargnani was half-assed with help D - unsure - and incurred a foul. And 1. Three different players, three mistakes. We sometimes think a screwup is one player's fault, but often it's a series of mistakes.

[AfricanSensation]

And somewhow at the end of all series of mistakes there is Bargs! Poor Bargs, always taking one for the team...

[galeon110]

THE KID **** PLAYED IN THE EUROLEAGUE ALL HIS LIFE. PISS OFF! Big deal he can't rebound, if he can occasionally drop 25 pts, then that's what we should be wanting him to focus on doing consistently. Rebounding should come later with experience because he's already got the size. All this nagging and crying about his rebounding is starting to get annoying.

[dagger]

Dagger is right to an extent. The center should never be deferring to the small forward to grab the rebound. The small forward should be deferring to the center. Bargnani can't get in the habit of thinking that someone else will get it.

Of course he shouldn't. That's as big an issue as any. He has the height, and sometimes he's in the right place, but he lets a teammate take it. If he demands it, his numbers will go up. If they collide and the ball rolls out of bounds, that won't happen more than a couple of times before things sort themselves out naturally.

[Fairview4Life]

I can't recall who it was, but someone literally stole a rebound, not from Bargnagni but from another player that made me chuckle. JG from Humphries perhaps?

A few weeks ago Moon stole a few from Delfino, one of which went out of bounds, and Delfino was visibly perturbed.

[The_Hater]

I noticed this also last night - not just with Bargs - but Moon almost took Bosh's head off also - only on the defensive end, but still... I can't fault Moon for rebounding and aggressively go after the ball, especially with Mitchell screaming at him, however, if your team mate is right there, alone, with the ball coming down to him there is no need to leap 4 feet in the air to snag it.

I love how we've been getting killed on the boards since Bargs rejoined the starting rotation, yet now people are starting to place blame on our best and most aggressive rebounder for 'stealing' rebounds from his teammates. WTF?!!? He's actually being criticized for not being as weak and passive as his teammates and having a nose for the ball? Do people really want Moon to stop trying to grab every available rebound on the court? If he didn't steal them from a teammate, would that somehow improve our team rebounding? Not to mention that at least 3 times in the last 2 games, rebounds have hit Bargs right in the middle of both hands, with nobody around, and he still lost them.

If the people making these claims don't realize how utterly backwards this is... well.... I give up..........