Tank World Order

[720]

Yes - when the other side disagrees with something, it’s because they don’t understand.

Furthermore, how much conjecture with the other sides opinions can one write with?

People literally make up arguments said by the opposing side that don’t exist.

I completely understand the thinking behind tWo, I just disagree with the timing.

That's a fair point and totally valid. Maybe time isn't now. It's just those people that say the Draft is no guarantee and we should just keep trucking along with 40 win seasons that don't get it.

Would be happy if we're a 50 win team, would mean multiple players have taken that next step. Doubt it though.

[Skeezo]

Why do people keep insisting that Norm won't be back? Outside of his slow starts every year he's been a good player for us. He fits well next to Fred, OG, and Siakam and he's only 28. Plus we have his bird rights. We can sign a big and whomever else and then re-sign Norm over the cap. Do you guys just want Norm off the team? Is this because he helps us win games and might hurt a multi-year tank effort?

Trading Lowry at least makes a tiny bit of sense given his age. Trading Norm makes no sense.

It's not that I don't like Powell as a player, but he is the oldest of the core you mentioned. My bigger fear is that it will cost too much to retain Norm this offseason because all the big name FA have already been locked down. This will create a sellers market for players and their services this summer. Now, Powell at 12m-14m is a trade asset, and I'm totally for resigning... Powell at 18-20m, I'm not sure is, and would recommend trading for a future asset. Finally, signing Powell to that type of a deal does not allow a lot of flexibility in our financials. We essentially have Siakim, FVV, OG, Powell, Boucher, and Flynn taking up 100m of 110m salary cap... Where do we go from there?

[B-Ball Freak]

Yes - when the other side disagrees with something, it’s because they don’t understand.

Furthermore, how much conjecture with the other sides opinions can one write with?

People literally make up arguments said by the opposing side that don’t exist.

I completely understand the thinking behind tWo, I just disagree with the timing.

That's a fair point and totally valid. Maybe time isn't now. It's just those people that say the Draft is no guarantee and we should just keep trucking along with 40 win seasons that don't get it.

Would be happy if we're a 50 win team, would mean multiple players have taken that next step. Doubt it though.

Fair point, we aint hitting 50 wins this year because of the shorter regular season but these next few weeks will be crucial in seeing how good this team can really be, the team seems to be playing better now.

[720]

Why do people keep insisting that Norm won't be back? Outside of his slow starts every year he's been a good player for us. He fits well next to Fred, OG, and Siakam and he's only 28. Plus we have his bird rights. We can sign a big and whomever else and then re-sign Norm over the cap. Do you guys just want Norm off the team? Is this because he helps us win games and might hurt a multi-year tank effort?

Trading Lowry at least makes a tiny bit of sense given his age. Trading Norm makes no sense.

It's not that I don't like Powell as a player, but he is the oldest of the core you mentioned. My bigger fear is that it will cost too much to retain Norm this offseason because all the big name FA have already been locked down. This will create a sellers market for players and their services this summer. Now, Powell at 12m-14m is a trade asset, and I'm totally for resigning... Powell at 18-20m, I'm not sure is, and would recommend trading for a future asset. Finally, signing Powell to that type of a deal does not allow a lot of flexibility in our financials. We essentially have Siakim, FVV, OG, Powell, Boucher, and Flynn taking up 100m of 110m salary cap... Where do we go from there?

Exactly AND if we don't re-sign him this offseason. Then none of this makes sense. Either you showcase him and deal him now. Or re-sign him and trade him later. Because atm all our money is tied into 3 guys and Norm would be the fourth in such a scenario.

[Skeezo]

Why do people keep insisting that Norm won't be back? Outside of his slow starts every year he's been a good player for us. He fits well next to Fred, OG, and Siakam and he's only 28. Plus we have his bird rights. We can sign a big and whomever else and then re-sign Norm over the cap. Do you guys just want Norm off the team? Is this because he helps us win games and might hurt a multi-year tank effort?

Trading Lowry at least makes a tiny bit of sense given his age. Trading Norm makes no sense.

It's not that I don't like Powell as a player, but he is the oldest of the core you mentioned. My bigger fear is that it will cost too much to retain Norm this offseason because all the big name FA have already been locked down. This will create a sellers market for players and their services this summer. Now, Powell at 12m-14m is a trade asset, and I'm totally for resigning... Powell at 18-20m, I'm not sure is, and would recommend trading for a future asset. Finally, signing Powell to that type of a deal does not allow a lot of flexibility in our financials. We essentially have Siakim, FVV, OG, Powell, Boucher, and Flynn taking up 100m of 110m salary cap... Where do we go from there?

Exactly AND if we don't re-sign him this offseason. Then none of this makes sense. Either you showcase him and deal him now. Or re-sign him and trade him later. Because atm all our money is tied into 3 guys and Norm would be the fourth in such a scenario.

I totally missed your reply which virtually said the same thing... my bad!

[VanWest82]

Why do people keep insisting that Norm won't be back? Outside of his slow starts every year he's been a good player for us. He fits well next to Fred, OG, and Siakam and he's only 28. Plus we have his bird rights. We can sign a big and whomever else and then re-sign Norm over the cap. Do you guys just want Norm off the team? Is this because he helps us win games and might hurt a multi-year tank effort?

Trading Lowry at least makes a tiny bit of sense given his age. Trading Norm makes no sense.

It's not that I don't like Powell as a player, but he is the oldest of the core you mentioned. My bigger fear is that it will cost too much to retain Norm this offseason because all the big name FA have already been locked down. This will create a sellers market for players and their services this summer. Now, Powell at 12m-14m is a trade asset, and I'm totally for resigning... Powell at 18-20m, I'm not sure is, and would recommend trading for a future asset. Finally, signing Powell to that type of a deal does not allow a lot of flexibility in our financials. We essentially have Siakim, FVV, OG, Powell, Boucher, and Flynn taking up 100m of 110m salary cap... Where do we go from there?

Exactly AND if we don't re-sign him this offseason. Then none of this makes sense. Either you showcase him and deal him now. Or re-sign him and trade him later. Because atm all our money is tied into 3 guys and Norm would be the fourth in such a scenario.

Both you guys are completely ignoring the part about his bird rights. You sign a FA (or two) first and then re-sign Norm over the cap. I highly doubt he's getting 18-20M. He's been a 6th man / spot starter for his entire career and if Lowry sticks around through the end of this year that's all he'll be prior to entering FA. Who are the 6th men UFAs making 20M AAV? 12-14M feels about right.

If we get meaningful trade offers then I'd consider trading Norm because that probably means he has a market and will get paid. I'm dubious that'll be the case though. Teams don't shell out big $$ for undersized SGs who aren't creators. He fits in nicely with Raptors though.

[720]

It's not that I don't like Powell as a player, but he is the oldest of the core you mentioned. My bigger fear is that it will cost too much to retain Norm this offseason because all the big name FA have already been locked down. This will create a sellers market for players and their services this summer. Now, Powell at 12m-14m is a trade asset, and I'm totally for resigning... Powell at 18-20m, I'm not sure is, and would recommend trading for a future asset. Finally, signing Powell to that type of a deal does not allow a lot of flexibility in our financials. We essentially have Siakim, FVV, OG, Powell, Boucher, and Flynn taking up 100m of 110m salary cap... Where do we go from there?

Exactly AND if we don't re-sign him this offseason. Then none of this makes sense. Either you showcase him and deal him now. Or re-sign him and trade him later. Because atm all our money is tied into 3 guys and Norm would be the fourth in such a scenario.

Both you guys are completely ignoring the part about his bird rights. You sign a FA (or two) first and then re-sign Norm over the cap. I highly doubt he's getting 18-20M. He's been a 6th man / spot starter for his entire career and if Lowry sticks around through the end of this year that's all he'll be prior to entering FA. Who are the 6th men UFAs making 20M AAV? 12-14M feels about right.

If we get meaningful trade offers then I'd consider trading Norm because that probably means he has a market and will get paid. I'm dubious that'll be the case though. Teams don't shell out big $$ for undersized SGs who aren't creators. He fits in nicely with Raptors though.

There are 3 guys I think the Raptors would be interested in this off season. Kawhi if he wants to comeback (doubt it). John Collins and Oladipo.

John Collins is a restricted free agent so I feel like Atlanta will match whatever offer sheet he gets.

Oladipo, well if we can get him that would be great, but rumors are he wants the max and prefers to go to Miami.

Other than that I think holding onto the capspace is preferable. Collins is a good get but unlikely. I don't think giving Oladipo the max is wise. He has played like 50 games the last three seasons.

[VanWest82]

There are 3 guys I think the Raptors would be interested in this off season. Kawhi if he wants to comeback (doubt it). John Collins and Oladipo.

John Collins is a restricted free agent so I feel like Atlanta will match whatever offer sheet he gets.

Oladipo, well if we can get him that would be great, but rumors are he wants the max and prefers to go to Miami.

Other than that I think holding onto the capspace is preferable. Collins is a good get but unlikely. I don't think giving Oladipo the max is wise. He has played like 50 games the last three seasons.

Oladipo looks like damaged goods to me and Collins and Siakam don't fit together. Maybe we work out a max S&T with Collins for Siakam. I'd be open to that. Hawks might be too if the rumors about Collins and Trae are true.

More likely we go after a big imo, perhaps via trade into our cap space. Someone like Vucevic, or one of Sabonis/Turner. Then we re-sign Norm. We won't have any stars but we'll have a balanced roster again. Or maybe we get the band back together with Demar and Kyle coming off the bench, and hope to have better luck being thrifty in the big man market.

This is the kind of strategy that will elicit treadmill and team mediocre talk, but it's also a path that will allow for internal development and more options via trade (maybe even into the lottery) if we decide to pivot.

[Skeezo]

It's not that I don't like Powell as a player, but he is the oldest of the core you mentioned. My bigger fear is that it will cost too much to retain Norm this offseason because all the big name FA have already been locked down. This will create a sellers market for players and their services this summer. Now, Powell at 12m-14m is a trade asset, and I'm totally for resigning... Powell at 18-20m, I'm not sure is, and would recommend trading for a future asset. Finally, signing Powell to that type of a deal does not allow a lot of flexibility in our financials. We essentially have Siakim, FVV, OG, Powell, Boucher, and Flynn taking up 100m of 110m salary cap... Where do we go from there?

Exactly AND if we don't re-sign him this offseason. Then none of this makes sense. Either you showcase him and deal him now. Or re-sign him and trade him later. Because atm all our money is tied into 3 guys and Norm would be the fourth in such a scenario.

Both you guys are completely ignoring the part about his bird rights. You sign a FA (or two) first and then re-sign Norm over the cap. I highly doubt he's getting 18-20M. He's been a 6th man / spot starter for his entire career and if Lowry sticks around through the end of this year that's all he'll be prior to entering FA. Who are the 6th men UFAs making 20M AAV? 12-14M feels about right.

If we get meaningful trade offers then I'd consider trading Norm because that probably means he has a market and will get paid. I'm dubious that'll be the case though. Teams don't shell out big $$ for undersized SGs who aren't creators. He fits in nicely with Raptors though.

In the scenario you are discussing is Lowry coming back or not because that makes a difference? Lowry's cap hold alone is 39m putting the Raptors over the cap... There will be NO signing of Free Agents first and then using the Bird Rights on Lowry and Powell to go over the cap... You have to first renounce Lowry.... Even then, Norm's cap hold is 17m... If you can get him for 12m-14m, you try to sign that deal right away because its less than the cap hold.

Look, I don't disagree with you on what Powell's AAV is, and as I said, at 12m, I probably sign him because at that price we can always move him. However, as mentioned, the weak Free Agent crop points to an environment where Norm gets a higher than AAV value. Even if we were to renounce Lowry, & sign Norm to a 12m per year deal, by the time we sign our draft pick, and taking into account the minimum roster cap holds, we are only looking at 14m-15m in cap space... I'm not sure where we go from there, other than getting a decent but not great Big Man for the front court...

Now ideally, T.Davis prior to his offseason malfunction was becoming what Powell became as a back-up for Ross. This would have easily allowed Masai to trade Powell for an asset much like it enabled the trade of Ross for Ibaka a few years back. If, TD could get back on track, he will will be much easier to retain on the cheap as an RFA next year, allowing the Raps to maximize their salary cap space to either sign a higher-level player or use the space for teams that want to dump bad contracts to gain additional draft picks if they so choose.

[720]

There are 3 guys I think the Raptors would be interested in this off season. Kawhi if he wants to comeback (doubt it). John Collins and Oladipo.

John Collins is a restricted free agent so I feel like Atlanta will match whatever offer sheet he gets.

Oladipo, well if we can get him that would be great, but rumors are he wants the max and prefers to go to Miami.

Other than that I think holding onto the capspace is preferable. Collins is a good get but unlikely. I don't think giving Oladipo the max is wise. He has played like 50 games the last three seasons.

Oladipo looks like damaged goods to me and Collins and Siakam don't fit together. Maybe we work out a max S&T with Collins for Siakam. I'd be open to that. Hawks might be too if the rumors about Collins and Trae are true.

More likely we go after a big imo, perhaps via trade into our cap space. Someone like Vucevic, or one of Sabonis/Turner. Then we re-sign Norm. We won't have any stars but we'll have a balanced roster again. Or maybe we get the band back together with Demar and Kyle coming off the bench, and hope to have better luck being thrifty in the big man market.

This is the kind of strategy that will elicit treadmill and team mediocre talk, but it's also a path that will allow for internal development and more options via trade (maybe even into the lottery).

Oh this is definitely a lateral move/mediocrity.

As for trading into the lotto. Too many teams are smart enough to not trade their top 5 pick for some player unless it's a superstar (I think Love for the 1st was the last time that happened). Maybe the warriors with their Minny pick. Even then I bet they would want Siakam and a future first or something for the pick.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Good FOs **** up the lottery all the time. This has been proven already.

[KL78192020]

Good FOs **** up the lottery all the time. This has been proven already.

Of course just as much as they can screw up free agent signings and trades. Masais biggest free agent signing was DeMarre Carroll lol.

[Johnny Bball]

Even if we trade Lowry and Powell we would get something in return we wouldn't just dump them for picks. We
would get some talent back that would still help us. Like you said there is just to many bad garbage teams out there
to realistically out tank them which has made this whole tank for a top 5 pick silly, unrealistic and ridiculous from the start.

Well to be fair, it was tank for a top 3 pick, then tank for a top 5, then tank for the lottery because any pick in the lottery could be a star apparently. Just as long as there is no success in any way shape or form this year.

Success is a first round bounce for team mediocre. Great.

General lack of bb knowledge, a whole ton of panic, and then pretend your plan of just finishing near the bottom was even feasible, and then blame everyone else that knew it, no matter the result. Great.

[bluerap23]

Get over the word tank bro. No one wants to lose for 10 years. We want a retool. We're a young team. We have all our core guys locked up for 4-5 years. Now is the best time to get a high draft pick. Instead we keep winning because of guys we HAVEN'T locked up (Lowry and Norman).

Everything you are saying is based on assumptions;

No one wants to lose for 10 years? Raptors been wining for 7 years- where is your imperical evidence the raptors will lose for 10 years straight ?

Top 10 pick ? How is this even guaranteed ?

Raptors aren't able to acquire a top 10 pick?



There are many alternatives to losing

The raptors are 10-12 man . Wake-up

Boston is 12-9 that's two more wins , considering all the close games the raptors have lost.


How are yall this blind

No, I'm saying tWo doesn't want to lose for 10 years. There is this assumption that we want to scrap our whole team and lose for years like the sixers. That's not what we want.

Yeah bro, we're 10-12. Mediocre. Only two wins vs teams with winning records and both times the teams were missing stars.

We're not the Celtics. They have two guys in the early 20s averaging 28 points a game.

The problem is that the roster is too good to tank. And it isn't like the spurs where David Robinson was their team. We would need multiple injuries to suck that bad.

We can try to make our roster a little worse and end up with the 12 pick instead of the 15 pick. I prefer to make our roster incrementally better each year.

[Rasho is god]

We have a good front office. Timberwolves didn't have that and we for sure didn't have one when Carter was here.

Lol.

Great response. Didn't I make it clear like 4 posts ago to you that you need a franchise player and a good front office? We have one but no the other.

You mad bro... doesn't a good front office mean you don't need to tank.

[KL78192020]

Everything you are saying is based on assumptions;

No one wants to lose for 10 years? Raptors been wining for 7 years- where is your imperical evidence the raptors will lose for 10 years straight ?

Top 10 pick ? How is this even guaranteed ?

Raptors aren't able to acquire a top 10 pick?



There are many alternatives to losing

The raptors are 10-12 man . Wake-up

Boston is 12-9 that's two more wins , considering all the close games the raptors have lost.


How are yall this blind

No, I'm saying tWo doesn't want to lose for 10 years. There is this assumption that we want to scrap our whole team and lose for years like the sixers. That's not what we want.

Yeah bro, we're 10-12. Mediocre. Only two wins vs teams with winning records and both times the teams were missing stars.

We're not the Celtics. They have two guys in the early 20s averaging 28 points a game.

The problem is that the roster is too good to tank. And it isn't like the spurs where David Robinson was their team. We would need multiple injuries to suck that bad.

We can try to make our roster a little worse and end up with the 12 pick instead of the 15 pick. I prefer to make our roster incrementally better each year.

If that's the path I hope the Raptors pony up to keep Lowry/Powell and not lose them as free agents.

[720]

Well to be fair, it was tank for a top 3 pick, then tank for a top 5, then tank for the lottery because any pick in the lottery could be a star apparently. Just as long as there is no success in any way shape or form this year.

Success is a first round bounce for team mediocre. Great.

General lack of bb knowledge, a whole ton of panic, and then pretend your plan of just finishing near the bottom was even feasible, and then blame everyone else that knew it, no matter the result. Great.

Great job deflecting. Not feasible. A team that's 2-8 against teams above .500. barely winning against bad teams. Somehow tanking is out of the question.

[Johnny Bball]

Success is a first round bounce for team mediocre. Great.

General lack of bb knowledge, a whole ton of panic, and then pretend your plan of just finishing near the bottom was even feasible, and then blame everyone else that knew it, no matter the result. Great.

Great job deflecting. Not feasible. A team that's 2-8 against teams above .500. barely winning against bad teams. Somehow tanking is out of the question.

Pretend, pretend, pretend. That isn't deflecting, it's telling you right up front. You can just underline the first point of my post about a team going from 60 wins to last.

Maybe you could have gone all Tanya Harding on the team and got your wish.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Good FOs **** up the lottery all the time. This has been proven already.

Of course just as much as they can screw up free agent signings and trades. Masais biggest free agent signing was DeMarre Carroll lol.

Right, but you don't have to throw a season to make a trade or FA signing. The Raptors' FO shouldn't be used to support an argument that they'll have a better chance of landing a top 5 player.

[720]

General lack of bb knowledge, a whole ton of panic, and then pretend your plan of just finishing near the bottom was even feasible, and then blame everyone else that knew it, no matter the result. Great.

Great job deflecting. Not feasible. A team that's 2-8 against teams above .500. barely winning against bad teams. Somehow tanking is out of the question.

Pretend, pretend, pretend. That isn't deflecting, it's telling you right up front. You can just underline the first point of my post about a team going from 60 wins to last.

Maybe you could have gone all Tanya Harding on the team and got your wish.

Don't address the statement I actually replied you with. Instead go on about tanking is never a possibility.