Tank World Order

[720]

It's okay guys. At least we're still the 8th seed. Why throw away this season with a meaningless tank? Competing builds character.

[Skeezo]

I picked a trade from this regime. Not even a top 6 trade by them. (1. Bargs for NYK's unprotected 1st 2. DeMar + parts for Kawhi 3. JV + parts for Marc 4. John Salmons contract for Lou Will 5. TRoss + first for Ibaka 6. 2 2nds for PJ Tucker.

C'mon dude, now I think you are being disingenuous just to be difficult... Lou Williams and PJ Tucker did not even stay with the team longer than a year... You are seriously going to make the claim those were better deals than trading a back-up PG (Vasquez) who was out the league two years later at 30 years old for two players (Powell/OG) that have played multiple seasons with the club, were on the championship team, and have also been re-signed to big-money contracts? Drafting Powell provided the surplus at SG to allow trading T.Ross for Ibaka in the first place... OG allowed us to weather Leonard's loss at the SF spot; a position that we went YEARS trying to fill (Kapono/Hedo/Carroll).

You actually think Memphis in the present day feels like they got robbed by trading Marc Gasol for JV, Wright, & a 2nd Rd pick? NO, they did the EXACT thing that we should be doing with Kyle Lowry (trade him to contender for future assets, because the Grit & Grind era was done)... How did the Grizzlies perform down the stretch after trading Gasol? Who did the Grizzlies draft in 2019? Ja Morant... Yeah, that move seemed to work out for them, especially with JV still giving them 15 & 10 a night.

Let's also remember Gasol didn't want to be traded either....

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2834918-marc-gasol-never-wanted-a-trade-but-now-has-the-best-title-shot-of-his-career

The team shouldn't trade Kyle without his consent. That clear?

We are perfectly clear on that... I just disagree

Wade left after the 2015/16 season. It didn't help hasten their rebuild (they ended up bringing him back!), hence why it's not a good example for you to use. They probably should have paid him his money. I don't think "they'll get over it" is good business practice anyways. Billups got over being traded by Dumars after an apology, but that team was never the same. It's not necessarily just strictly a management-star player concern. I don't recall Pierce being upset at being traded at all, but I'm sure deep down he knows he didn't get the Kobe/Dirk/Duncan treatment and he's probably too proud to admit it stings.

2015/16 Heat has Wade on the team and it finishes 3rd in division... They let Wade walk and 2016/17 Heat finish in the lottery getting the #14 pick. Who did they draft? Bam Adebayo.... Are you really trying to say drafting arguably their best player didn't hasten the rebuild at all? Hero was drafted two years later, also in the lottery. Finally, because Miami is FA destination location, they have the advantage of signing players like Jimmy Butler without relinquishing any assets as part of their process.

If there's a few more years of winning then that buys time for good luck to break. Trade value is extremely fluid, so it's impossible to be too confident, but (see above) the Raptors have had a good track record of trading up in talent for depressed value players. If the Raptors are good, everyone's value increases. If the Raptors finish out the season and they still suck, then it wouldn't make sense to tie up that money on Norm.

If Raptors continue to flounder/tread water, why are we waiting until the end of the year to let Norm walk for nothing, when he is worth something now? If you believe N.Powell is worth 18m-20m per on the open market, than he's a player worth at least a first round pick in trade to secure his bird rights.

I totally agree with you that Masai/Bobby have made some excellent trades in the past, this is why your strategy of not trading anybody of value and to keep letting them walk for nothing makes no sense to me. It would seem, that you want Masai/Bobby to make magic happen with M.Thomas, Watson, Brembry, and Boucher. I just don't think that is giving them the best tools to work with.

[MixxSRC]

It's okay guys. At least we're still the 8th seed. Why throw away this season with a meaningless tank? Competing builds character.

Jesus take the wheel. Something will come up

[Caped Crusader]

Actually I'm not planning on Raptors being perpetual bottom feeder. Like you called.

And what is this proven formula that have success rate?

Well there's no guarantee that tanking will lead to a championship. I also didn't claim to have the answers unlike you. What I do know is we didn't win a championship by tanking.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app

There's no way you know that. Stop. Awesome plan by the way.

What are you on about? I simply said there's no guarantee that tanking leads to a championship. Many teams do it, the results don't usually lead to a championship. Again, I don't claim to have the answers or a particular plan in place but I certainly trust the brain trust of the front office over whatever convoluted plan you believe to have.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app

[KL78192020]

It's okay guys. At least we're still the 8th seed. Why throw away this season with a meaningless tank? Competing builds character.

Will end up one better! 14th pick and no playoffs!! lol

[MixxSRC]

Well there's no guarantee that tanking will lead to a championship. I also didn't claim to have the answers unlike you. What I do know is we didn't win a championship by tanking.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app

There's no way you know that. Stop. Awesome plan by the way.

What are you on about? I simply said there's no guarantee that tanking leads to a championship. Many teams do it, the results don't usually lead to a championship. Again, I don't claim to have the answers or a particular plan in place but I certainly trust the brain trust of the front office over whatever convoluted plan you believe to have.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app

Don't waste my time bro. You saying nothing

[Steelo Green]

Well there's no guarantee that tanking will lead to a championship. I also didn't claim to have the answers unlike you. What I do know is we didn't win a championship by tanking.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app

There's no way you know that. Stop. Awesome plan by the way.

What are you on about? I simply said there's no guarantee that tanking leads to a championship. Many teams do it, the results don't usually lead to a championship. Again, I don't claim to have the answers or a particular plan in place but I certainly trust the brain trust of the front office over whatever convoluted plan you believe to have.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app

You do realize if not for Kyle's trade getting nixed, that was the brain trusts plan right?

We were in no mans land for 5 years and lucked into the Kawhi trade, people will just never admit to the truth.

Masai is the same guy who didn't fire Casey after the Wizards sweep (first time the home seed was swept in NBA history), or kept running it back when we knew the Kyle and Demar group was flawed.

The Spurs taking on Demar in a situation that is not replicable does not mean Masai is some genius, he traded away a negative asset because the Spurs were more hell bent on sticking it to Kawhi than taking a better package from the Lakers.

When people talk about Masai, they focus on his title as though everything prior to it is irrelevant.

He is a good president who has his flaws.

It's a forum - everyone gives their opinions, not sure why anyone giving theirs and it differs with yours and there is contempt.

[Pooh_Jeter]

Big loss tonight. You can see the difference in talent level. The Hawks were missing Hunter, Bogdan, and Dunn and still had plenty of talent to put out there. They have Okongwu developing on the bench unit behind Capela and Collins.

They are a 6-8 seed this year with a ton of upside. Its weird how the Raptors can just rely on organic growth, but what about teams that are younger and have more high upside talent? They won't get better?

[7 Footer]

Someone said they would take Fred over Trae all day any day...Wild

[720]

It's fine guys, that was a schedule loss (back to back). You know how tiring it must have been to beat a Nets team without KD? The biggest win of our young season! Give the team a break. Besides, the hawks are full of young lottery prospects. They don't have our winning culture.

On to the next.

[Caped Crusader]

There's no way you know that. Stop. Awesome plan by the way.

What are you on about? I simply said there's no guarantee that tanking leads to a championship. Many teams do it, the results don't usually lead to a championship. Again, I don't claim to have the answers or a particular plan in place but I certainly trust the brain trust of the front office over whatever convoluted plan you believe to have.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app

You do realize if not for Kyle's trade getting nixed, that was the brain trusts plan right?

We were in no mans land for 5 years and lucked into the Kawhi trade, people will just never admit to the truth.

Masai is the same guy who didn't fire Casey after the Wizards sweep (first time the home seed was swept in NBA history), or kept running it back when we knew the Kyle and Demar group was flawed.

The Spurs taking on Demar in a situation that is not replicable does not mean Masai is some genius, he traded away a negative asset because the Spurs were more hell bent on sticking it to Kawhi than taking a better package from the Lakers.

When people talk about Masai, they focus on his title as though everything prior to it is irrelevant.

He is a good president who has his flaws.

It's a forum - everyone gives their opinions, not sure why anyone giving theirs and it differs with yours and there is contempt.

I'm totally open to opinions and by the way, I'm not completely against tanking. I just think that that's not the only way to succeed.
Some people seem to think that's the only path to succeed when it's proven it's not. You read my reply as contempt but completely failed to acknowledge his condescendence most likely because you have your own bias towards a friendly of yours who are 100 percent on the tank bandwagon. Try to keep your bias aside before suggesting contempt from one side to the other while turning a blind eye. I've also seen several posts from you where you disagree with other posters opinions and your aggresive replies to them in return.

I realize the brain trust was planning on trading Lowry yes, ironically to tank and the exact opposite happened by not trading Lowry. He became an integral part to winning a championship. It does take some luck to go your way to have perennial success and also of course to win a championship. You're judging Masai on his misses and not his overall body of work which is not fair.

[Chandan]

Big loss tonight. You can see the difference in talent level. The Hawks were missing Hunter, Bogdan, and Dunn and still had plenty of talent to put out there. They have Okongwu developing on the bench unit behind Capela and Collins.



They are a 6-8 seed this year with a ton of upside. Its weird how the Raptors can just rely on organic growth, but what about teams that are younger and have more high upside talent? They won't get better?

notice how nobody is talking about Sixers anymore?

[Basketball_Jones]

Big loss tonight. You can see the difference in talent level. The Hawks were missing Hunter, Bogdan, and Dunn and still had plenty of talent to put out there. They have Okongwu developing on the bench unit behind Capela and Collins.

They are a 6-8 seed this year with a ton of upside. Its weird how the Raptors can just rely on organic growth, but what about teams that are younger and have more high upside talent? They won't get better?

Yada yada. When they beat the Lakers and Sixers you’ll see this team has huge upside and is well on its way to the top

[Chandan]

Big loss tonight. You can see the difference in talent level. The Hawks were missing Hunter, Bogdan, and Dunn and still had plenty of talent to put out there. They have Okongwu developing on the bench unit behind Capela and Collins.

They are a 6-8 seed this year with a ton of upside. Its weird how the Raptors can just rely on organic growth, but what about teams that are younger and have more high upside talent? They won't get better?

Yada yada. When they beat the Lakers and Sixers you’ll see this team has huge upside and is well on its way to the top

hey anything is possible. just not very likely

[ATLTimekeeper]

C'mon dude, now I think you are being disingenuous just to be difficult... Lou Williams and PJ Tucker did not even stay with the team longer than a year... You are seriously going to make the claim those were better deals than trading a back-up PG (Vasquez) who was out the league two years later at 30 years old for two players (Powell/OG) that have played multiple seasons with the club, were on the championship team, and have also been re-signed to big-money contracts? Drafting Powell provided the surplus at SG to allow trading T.Ross for Ibaka in the first place... OG allowed us to weather Leonard's loss at the SF spot; a position that we went YEARS trying to fill (Kapono/Hedo/Carroll).

You don't evaluate trades for picks based on who was picked. If they had selected Bruno and DeAndre Daniels, it's the same quality trade as selecting OG and Norm. Lou Will was 6MOY for what amounted to cap. 2nd rounders for a guy that's been a key starter for a pseudo contender the last several years is a good trade.

You actually think Memphis in the present day feels like they got robbed by trading Marc Gasol for JV, Wright, & a 2nd Rd pick? NO, they did the EXACT thing that we should be doing with Kyle Lowry (trade him to contender for future assets, because the Grit & Grind era was done)... How did the Grizzlies perform down the stretch after trading Gasol? Who did the Grizzlies draft in 2019? Ja Morant... Yeah, that move seemed to work out for them, especially with JV still giving them 15 & 10 a night.

I don't think they felt they got robbed. A successful trade doesn't have to be a rip-off, but it was key to us winning a title and it cost us very little. Hate to keep playing history teacher here but Memphis was worse with Gasol (12 games under .500), and post-ASG they went 10-13). They were demonstrably better post-trade, and ended up decreasing their lottery odds, but won anyway. That's how they got "Morant." I'm also in favour of lucking into special players. Have been all along, but this isn't a good example for you to use. The Raptors aren't 12 games under .500, and they certainly weren't on Dec 30th when this thread was created.

2015/16 Heat has Wade on the team and it finishes 3rd in division... They let Wade walk and 2016/17 Heat finish in the lottery getting the #14 pick. Who did they draft? Bam Adebayo.... Are you really trying to say drafting arguably their best player didn't hasten the rebuild at all? Hero was drafted two years later, also in the lottery. Finally, because Miami is FA destination location, they have the advantage of signing players like Jimmy Butler without relinquishing any assets as part of their process.

They didn't let Wade walk, they lowballed him, and then eventually they were pretty close, but Wade was insulted and left. Either way, they didn't trade him to facilitate a rebuild, which was the original comment. Drafting Adebayo late in the lottery and having him pan out doesn't change that. If Lowry walks for nothing and we draft an Adebayo, cool! I hope that happens. I've made it clear you can trade up into that range of picks easily, if the Raptors have their eyes on a specific player. The Heat are just a bad example for you.

If Raptors continue to flounder/tread water, why are we waiting until the end of the year to let Norm walk for nothing, when he is worth something now? If you believe N.Powell is worth 18m-20m per on the open market, than he's a player worth at least a first round pick in trade to secure his bird rights.

I don't think they've been floundering or treading water. They had a horrible first 10 games, and then I believe they are 8-5 since with a good net rating. If they continue to trend that way they'll be fine by the trade deadline, and if they hit the skids, then it's likely trades will be made.

I totally agree with you that Masai/Bobby have made some excellent trades in the past, this is why your strategy of not trading anybody of value and to keep letting them walk for nothing makes no sense to me. It would seem, that you want Masai/Bobby to make magic happen with M.Thomas, Watson, Brembry, and Boucher. I just don't think that is giving them the best tools to work with.

No, I don't have an immediate timeline. The strategy is to see where this season goes rather than bail early.

[Johnny Bball]

Oh man, guess we need a 72 game sample size to realize this team isn't good enough to win a championship.

And there you have it. You basically just said if you know you can't compete in a given year, you have to tank. Win or tank. Blow up the entire future. Lmfao. Like a bunch of people has said, your view makes sure we don't even have a title.

Everyone knew we wouldn't win this year or complete, guess you were the only one surprised and needed even 7 games. But most people also have a larger view. Basing every future decision off seven games is just awful. As for your 72 game argument, it's a complete strawman because you don't have a leg to stand on for that decision. And there's a reason to why I waited for the quarter pole to even bother to say much in this thread.

Blow up the future? lol what? No one wants to blow up the team.

Also it's not about competing in a given year. It's about competing with this core. This core has reached its limits. Unless OG goes to another level we are what we are. We need to add talent to this core.

Standing pat just delays the inevitable.

So let’s recap...core isn’t bad now, we need to add talent to it.

So your plan, by default, is to trade players outside the core and get bad and really worse players back (lmao)? and you think would make us terrible enough? Your plan for tanking is to basically trade Davis and Powell....you think that makes us tank bad enough. No it doesn’t...do you think trading Lowry is tanking and makes us bad enough?

Or is it about trading the CORE and blowing up the team? Because the one is dumb and we know it’s a lie, and achieves little, and the second is just asinine after seven games.

Maybe be less petulant about what everyone knew before the season started, we were taking a step back. If your concept is simply trading a Lowry and Powell, most people wouldn’t argue with you. That you would listen to any trade talks. But you seem to have some mistaken opinion that trading either player means tanking. You also seem to think that management wouldn’t for some crazy reason. But No... it would take far more than that to tank.

Pick a lane. And stop moaning when they win. This team couldn’t suck enough without completely blowing it up. And you still don’t get that.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Draft: Hoffa, Bargnani, Charlie V. JV, TRoss, Poeltl.

But I'm not really interested in this game.

The comparison is to free agents. You're point was instead of throwing away a season for a pick. You can just sign someone as a free agent. Who have the Raptors signed that is better in comparison to Tmac/Bosh/Carter/Demar/JV.

Let's recap:

Of course just as much as they can screw up free agent signings and trades. Masais biggest free agent signing was DeMarre Carroll lol.

I mean, what are you trying to argue here? Carter, Bosh and TMac weren't good enough to build around, either.

[Darkseid]

Where are the mods?

Why hasn't this thread been locked yet?

[Skeezo]

You don't evaluate trades for picks based on who was picked. If they had selected Bruno and DeAndre Daniels, it's the same quality trade as selecting OG and Norm. Lou Will was 6MOY for what amounted to cap. 2nd rounders for a guy that's been a key starter for a pseudo contender the last several years is a good trade.

You don't want to equate who we got with our draft picks in our a trade, but you want to give credit to a player for the play he gave for years with other teams not our own in PJ Tucker... ???
We paid two 2nd rounds picks to have a PJ come in to to help slow down LeBron James... He ended up playing 24 games, averaging 6 points, and we were swept by Lebron's Cavs before he walked for nothing. You want to talk about a BAD example, there's one. 1st and 2nd Round pick for a back-up PG is highway robbery whether we take into a account the players drafted or not.

I don't think they felt they got robbed. A successful trade doesn't have to be a rip-off, but it was key to us winning a title and it cost us very little. Hate to keep playing history teacher here but Memphis was worse with Gasol (12 games under .500), and post-ASG they went 10-13). They were demonstrably better post-trade, and ended up decreasing their lottery odds, but won anyway. That's how they got "Morant." I'm also in favour of lucking into special players. Have been all along, but this isn't a good example for you to use. The Raptors aren't 12 games under .500, and they certainly weren't on Dec 30th when this thread was created.

First, Grizzlies were 22-33: .400 with Gasol and were 11-16 with JV: 407... Wouldn't call that "demonstrably" better... I would call it neutral, which might demonstrate the fairness in talent value between JV/Gasol at the time. Second, if you don't think having JV on the roster right now would help in place of A.Baynes then you are just not being truthful. Would I do the trade again? Of course, I would... However, it was the Vasquez trade that gave us the surplus in assets to allow us to start making the Ibaka/Gasol deals in the first place... Our definitions of " giving up very little" are very different. Vasquez was out of the league 3 years ago, JV is still producing 15 pts 10 Reb... M.Gasol is no longer on the Raptors, while both Powell and OG are still contributing.

Finally, the fact remains the Grizzlies traded M.Gasol who played his entire basketball career (including College) in Memphis and they traded him when he didn't want to be traded. They did EXACTLY what you are saying we shouldn't do with Kyle... For that reason alone, it is an AMAZING example.

They didn't let Wade walk, they lowballed him, and then eventually they were pretty close, but Wade was insulted and left. Either way, they didn't trade him to facilitate a rebuild, which was the original comment. Drafting Adebayo late in the lottery and having him pan out doesn't change that. If Lowry walks for nothing and we draft an Adebayo, cool! I hope that happens. I've made it clear you can trade up into that range of picks easily, if the Raptors have their eyes on a specific player. The Heat are just a bad example for you.

Lowballing or letting him walk is merely semantics, it's called negotiation... Wade felt he was worth one dollar figure and the Heat felt otherwise and let him go... Heat went from 3rd in the Conference to Lottery and they drafted Bam Adebayo when you said that move didn't hasten their rebuild, when it did... The Heat example also illustrates that smart teams do not allow players dictate their moves to them. Masai/Riley are the Presidents, not Lowry/Wade... I'm fine with letting other members judge how they view the example.

I don't think they've been floundering or treading water. They had a horrible first 10 games, and then I believe they are 8-5 since with a good net rating. If they continue to trend that way they'll be fine by the trade deadline, and if they hit the skids, then it's likely trades will be made.

Again, you and I have a different definitions for what "floundering/treading water" is. We are more than a third of the way through a shortened season and we are 10-13... We are 5-5 over our last 10... Looking at the upcoming schedule, we will be lucky to be 17-19 by the halfway mark... If that isn't floundering/treading water for a team that has been in the upper echelon of the league for the last 5 -6 years, I don't know what is.

Either way, you and I both agree in our belief in Masai/Bobby's ability to trade/draft our way back into relevance... The difference is, I want to give them better players/picks to use at their disposal to make it happen... You would rather see us continue the slow trend downwards, while hoping Masai/Bobby can make wine from water because you seem to be more loyal to Lowry's feelings than you are to the Raptors.

[Skeezo]

Where are the mods?

Why hasn't this thread been locked yet?

Two is officially dead

Lock this thread up and ban the worst posters to send a message.

Tankers need to start their own forum. We can't have them out there making the rest of real gm look like idiots.

If you ever meet a TWO Raptors "fan" ... Choke them. Take their belongings. Leave them naked on the streets. They'll like it cause then they can embrace a real life tank. But they have no place among Raptors fan.

I piss on TWO.... I **** on them.

Yes... Where are the Mods?

You don't have to click on this thread, you know... Seriously, grow-up! It's ONE very popular and active thread where members are hashing out various strategies on how to add talent to the Raptors team.

We have a BIG problem with society when people get so microaggressed that they cannot hear a difference in opinion... Instead, they become authoritarian and absolutist (the very people they often claim to loath). Ban, censor, cancel... Seriously, its time to start telling people that express themselves this way to either add something of substance to the conversation or sit down and STFU... The world and everybody in it doesn't have to cater to every single one of your sensitivities.